How does this happen"
10-02-2004, 08:05 PM
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How does this happen"
From http://www.thenewmexicochannel.com/index.html
Channel 7 Albuquerque, NM:
"SANTA FE, N.M. -- New Mexico state police said a pilot killed in an acrobatic airplane crash in Santa Fe Saturday is Richard Bobbitt, of Parker, Colo.
State police Lt. Jimmy Glascock said Bobbitt's plane went into a spin on the descent of a vertical maneuver during the air show at the Santa Fe Municipal Airport.
Federal Aviation Administration spokesman Roland Herwig said the 1993 Sukhoi S-U-29 crashed about a half mile from the airport's control tower.
Airport manager Jim Montman said the rest of the one-day Santa Fe Air Show 2004 is canceled.
Montman said the FAA is investigating the crash, and the National Transportation Safety Board was en route Saturday afternoon."
Channel 7 Albuquerque, NM:
"SANTA FE, N.M. -- New Mexico state police said a pilot killed in an acrobatic airplane crash in Santa Fe Saturday is Richard Bobbitt, of Parker, Colo.
State police Lt. Jimmy Glascock said Bobbitt's plane went into a spin on the descent of a vertical maneuver during the air show at the Santa Fe Municipal Airport.
Federal Aviation Administration spokesman Roland Herwig said the 1993 Sukhoi S-U-29 crashed about a half mile from the airport's control tower.
Airport manager Jim Montman said the rest of the one-day Santa Fe Air Show 2004 is canceled.
Montman said the FAA is investigating the crash, and the National Transportation Safety Board was en route Saturday afternoon."
10-02-2004, 08:53 PM
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RE: How does this happen"
"Stuff happens" There was a crash here in SW Florida where a "Vertically challenged" pilot had a booster seat cushion slip and wedge the stick in a foward position during an inverted spin...... no recovery.. So "How does this happen?" We may never know, but I will be willing to bet the pilot did every thing he could to prevent it.
10-02-2004, 09:35 PM
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RE: How does this happen"
ORIGINAL: N726AC
"Stuff happens" There was a crash here in SW Florida where a "Vertically challenged" pilot had a booster seat cushion slip and wedge the stuck in a foward position during an inverted spin...... no recovery.. So "How does this happen?" We may never know, but I will be willing to bet the pilot did every thing he could to prevent it.
"Stuff happens" There was a crash here in SW Florida where a "Vertically challenged" pilot had a booster seat cushion slip and wedge the stuck in a foward position during an inverted spin...... no recovery.. So "How does this happen?" We may never know, but I will be willing to bet the pilot did every thing he could to prevent it.
I should have prefaced it, perhaps, with "How do we let news ijits get away with pseudo-science and half truths, or am I missing something"
I guess I had in mind a turnaround or the back side of a square loop-nose down. And since a spin is a stalled manuever, the particular series of events would seem unlikely. I was hoping for a fuller description.
I hate it when things go this badly wrong, and my sympathies go out to his family and friends.
10-04-2004, 02:42 PM
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RE: How does this happen"
You wonder how we let reporters/journalists publish materials, where it is obvious that they don't know the first thing about the subject? Get used to it. The first thing that struck me, is when somebody calls a plane acrobatic, get it in your head folks, acro=dirt, aero=air he he. I was at the Kingman, AZ air and auto show this weekend as spotter and helper to my friend, Darcy Wingo, who had been invited to fly his Composite-ARF 3.1m Super Extra for the crowd twice both days. Now one would think the announcer at an airshow had some idea about the different aerobatic maneuvers, not this one, it wasn't until another fellow RC pilot got on the podium with him, that the flying and announcing kind of matched
. It's kinda funny when sustained knife edge flight is the biggest dang mystery to the announcer
. Tim Webber was there as well in his Extra 300L, he was nothing like Darcy, but his smoke and prop ripping was cool he he.
DKjens
. It's kinda funny when sustained knife edge flight is the biggest dang mystery to the announcer. Tim Webber was there as well in his Extra 300L, he was nothing like Darcy, but his smoke and prop ripping was cool he he.DKjens
10-04-2004, 02:50 PM
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RE: How does this happen"
Read in a norwegian newspaper that some of the people at the air show said tha engine quit. I have seen the a video of the crash, it looked like he pulled up too soon after his arobatics. And if his engine quit he would have stalled, way too low speed.
But this happens when you do low level aerobatics, one wrong turn and that is it.
Heres a video link: http://www.vg.no/video/
But this happens when you do low level aerobatics, one wrong turn and that is it.
Heres a video link: http://www.vg.no/video/
10-05-2004, 11:15 AM
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RE: How does this happen"
If you turn the volume up, you can hear the guy analizing the film.. As the plane comes out of the tumble and starts the inverted spin, he says "right there!... That's the one that there's no real way out of.......... But he does pull it out..." And that's when he gets the rotation stopped and tries to pull out with too much back pressure, and snaps the thing into the ground..
When he says "That's the on there's no real way out of." I think he's referring to the inverted spin that he just seems to wind up in as a result of the tumble. It doesn't look like a standard inverted spin, it looks more like a knife edge spin.
When he says "That's the on there's no real way out of." I think he's referring to the inverted spin that he just seems to wind up in as a result of the tumble. It doesn't look like a standard inverted spin, it looks more like a knife edge spin.
10-05-2004, 09:41 PM
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RE: How does this happen"
the latest report I have is that there was a lot of silence after the tail slide. Silence as in no power. That Sukoi is a very noisy airplane when the throttle is applied.
If he were dead stick, he probably did not have enough altitude to gain the airspeed required to pull out without power.
edited to add,,,I just viewed the video (above) he had it pulled out, it appears, then went into a Left turn, and spun from there.
I have seen that airplane pulled harder than that at the bottom, and he still had a lot of air between himself and the ground.
It doesn't make sense at all...
If he were dead stick, he probably did not have enough altitude to gain the airspeed required to pull out without power.
edited to add,,,I just viewed the video (above) he had it pulled out, it appears, then went into a Left turn, and spun from there.
I have seen that airplane pulled harder than that at the bottom, and he still had a lot of air between himself and the ground.
It doesn't make sense at all...
10-06-2004, 12:37 AM
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RE: How does this happen"
No one will know for sure but from the vid it appears he's in trouble when the inverted spin starts. Possible G-loc ??. Just before impact you can hear the engine rpm increase a tadd. It's possible he had engine problems, but i agree there should be louder engine noise.
Grinder.
Grinder.
10-06-2004, 01:43 AM
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RE: How does this happen"
i just went to watch the video again, you can clearly see his elevator in full deflection as the airplane impacted. if you also watch the smoke coming from the plane, you can see the plane is fully stalled as indicated by the angle of attack in relation to the smoke. from what i have read, the sukhoi is very pitch sensitive and it does not retain its energy like an edge or a cap would. my guess is that he knew he was in trouble and reacted before the plane was ready to come out of departed flight. this is the secound video of a sukhoi that i have seen where the airplane departed due to an eccelerated stall. i cant remember where i saw the other video but when i saw this one could not believe how much a like they looked. the same ecelerated stall into a slight spin before impact.
10-06-2004, 01:32 PM
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RE: How does this happen"
For thos ewho think the engine quit.. Note that the smoke doesn't stop..................
You would usually throttle back at the end of a tumbling manuver..
You would usually throttle back at the end of a tumbling manuver..
10-12-2004, 10:46 PM
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RE: How does this happen"
The smoke generators don't necessarily run off the engine. In the 70's we mounted some on the tips of a 727 at NASA...
I showed the video to a friend who is an instructor with lots of hours in various types--not sure of his airshow experience--but he said he did not see what appeared to him to be a "Piloted recovery" after the tailslide, except sporadically.
Only time and the final investigation will tell us. God Rest him.
Roger
I showed the video to a friend who is an instructor with lots of hours in various types--not sure of his airshow experience--but he said he did not see what appeared to him to be a "Piloted recovery" after the tailslide, except sporadically.
Only time and the final investigation will tell us. God Rest him.
Roger
10-13-2004, 08:27 AM
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RE: How does this happen"
There is a reason most aerobatic pilots don't live too long. I always wanted to do that but every time I talked about people with airshow experience they kept bring up the best airshow pilots they knew who were almost all dead. The ones that live through an airshow career end up being a "Trophy" for the FAA aka Bob Hoover. These guys push these airplanes closer and closer to the edge. They can do it perfect 1000 times, have one small problem, gust a wind at the wrong time, misfire in the engine, small miscalculation and the big show is over. What went wrong? The odds caught up with them. It may be a 100-1 odds but if you do it a couple 100 times, they will get you!
Gary
Gary
10-22-2004, 11:24 AM
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RE: How does this happen"
Gary,
You lumped all pilots that do aerobatics into one category "aerobatic pilots" and then said they don't live too long. That is not accurate!! In full size competition aerobatics in the united states there has never been a fatal accident... not a single one. You would be hard pressed to find a more safety conscious group of pilots then you'll find at an IAC aerobatic contest. Airshow performers get killed all the time, this is true. But the percentage of "aerobatic pilots" that participate in air shows is very small, and if you really look at the numbers even their odds aren't as bad as you are making them out to be... A gust of wind, a hicup of the engine... thats not true!!! Sean Tucker can land from an engine failure during his "hover" he practices it at altitude all the time in preperation... Kirby hovers very low, he would probably be able to walk away if his engine quite because the fall would be so short... some airshow pilots push it too far, I won't name people but I do see pilots that I shake my head and say there going to get themselves killed.. But no pilot should be turned away from the safety benefits of learning aerobatics, not to mention the fun, because of false perceptions of safety created by the highly publisised crashes of a few pilots that "got themselves killed".
I have about 1000 hours of flying aerobatics, most of it teaching... but a good deal of that time came praticing for competition and competing. I have flown over 20 contests 2 of which were in Unlimited with a floor of 328 feet... I'm not dead, I never felt like I was taking unreasonable risks, and thousands of other pilots do the same thing all the time without crashing. Aside from airshows crashes that involve aerobatic aircraft all result from doing aerobatics at low altitude. The FAA limits aerobatic flight to a minimum altitude of 1500 feet unless in wavered airspace. This means that those pilots that get killed doing low level aerobatics are already breaking the regulations, so it's not the airplane or the activity that killed them, it was the disregard for regulations and common sense that says you should fly higher then 1500 feet when doing aerobatics.
Obviously this is a subject that I feel strongly about... don't take it the wrong way I just don't want the activity that I live for to be misrepresented this way.
Ty Frisby
You lumped all pilots that do aerobatics into one category "aerobatic pilots" and then said they don't live too long. That is not accurate!! In full size competition aerobatics in the united states there has never been a fatal accident... not a single one. You would be hard pressed to find a more safety conscious group of pilots then you'll find at an IAC aerobatic contest. Airshow performers get killed all the time, this is true. But the percentage of "aerobatic pilots" that participate in air shows is very small, and if you really look at the numbers even their odds aren't as bad as you are making them out to be... A gust of wind, a hicup of the engine... thats not true!!! Sean Tucker can land from an engine failure during his "hover" he practices it at altitude all the time in preperation... Kirby hovers very low, he would probably be able to walk away if his engine quite because the fall would be so short... some airshow pilots push it too far, I won't name people but I do see pilots that I shake my head and say there going to get themselves killed.. But no pilot should be turned away from the safety benefits of learning aerobatics, not to mention the fun, because of false perceptions of safety created by the highly publisised crashes of a few pilots that "got themselves killed".
I have about 1000 hours of flying aerobatics, most of it teaching... but a good deal of that time came praticing for competition and competing. I have flown over 20 contests 2 of which were in Unlimited with a floor of 328 feet... I'm not dead, I never felt like I was taking unreasonable risks, and thousands of other pilots do the same thing all the time without crashing. Aside from airshows crashes that involve aerobatic aircraft all result from doing aerobatics at low altitude. The FAA limits aerobatic flight to a minimum altitude of 1500 feet unless in wavered airspace. This means that those pilots that get killed doing low level aerobatics are already breaking the regulations, so it's not the airplane or the activity that killed them, it was the disregard for regulations and common sense that says you should fly higher then 1500 feet when doing aerobatics.
Obviously this is a subject that I feel strongly about... don't take it the wrong way I just don't want the activity that I live for to be misrepresented this way.
Ty Frisby
07-20-2005, 11:24 PM
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RE: How does this happen"
hey guys,
my name is stefanie bobbitt...i am 17 yrz old....that was my father who crashed. he was doing a torque roll obviously. and no it wasnt a dangerous manuever especially in that aircraft. he had been flying for over 30 yrz and had a couple thousand hrz logged. my dad took me for my first flight when i was 2 weeks old and i have loved flying ever since. my dad was a safe pilot and knew all the risks of being an airshow pilot. he had enough altitude that wasnt the problem...the problem was the prop on the sukhoi. i have flown this manuever w/ him several times...everything was going just right until he fell out of the bottom of the smoke...the prop did a quick yank in the wrong direction...which it does do...trust me it happened to me b 4. he got into the inverted flat spin and made 3 rotations...there was a point where it looked like he had it and went to full power and the sukhoi yanked again and that was when we all knew it was over. he was an excellent pilot and could have easily taken any amount of force to get out of it. you could c his rudder and ailerons were all in the rite position. i was extremely close to my dad he was my best friend and we did a lot of stuff together like scuba diving and flying and camping and hiking...i have a little brother named michael and my moms name is randy.my dad flew for united airlines and was one of those employees that if u sat in a meeting w/ him u would have to send him several emails after the meeting just so u could understand everything. i miss my dad dearly...but i still fly and he is on my wing tip every time i fly i see him weather he is only there for a split second or if he is there until the airplane is safely on the ground. hez an angel now and hez always w/ me. i remember the phone call...itz one that u never want to get. my dads best friend who was practically his older brother was also a performer in that airshow...his name is don...he has a sukhoi 26 mx...i kno my dad fought till the end...and i kno he would b proud of how well everybody is doing...but i think these things r very interesting...i mean u obviously need to talk about them so that ppl can learn from mistakes...but im not sure i really appreciate ppl trying to say weather or not it was his fault or not b/c clearly it wasnt. if u want to talk to me in email then my email adress is [email protected] or [email protected]
missfire (my dads call sign for me and his was jughead)
my name is stefanie bobbitt...i am 17 yrz old....that was my father who crashed. he was doing a torque roll obviously. and no it wasnt a dangerous manuever especially in that aircraft. he had been flying for over 30 yrz and had a couple thousand hrz logged. my dad took me for my first flight when i was 2 weeks old and i have loved flying ever since. my dad was a safe pilot and knew all the risks of being an airshow pilot. he had enough altitude that wasnt the problem...the problem was the prop on the sukhoi. i have flown this manuever w/ him several times...everything was going just right until he fell out of the bottom of the smoke...the prop did a quick yank in the wrong direction...which it does do...trust me it happened to me b 4. he got into the inverted flat spin and made 3 rotations...there was a point where it looked like he had it and went to full power and the sukhoi yanked again and that was when we all knew it was over. he was an excellent pilot and could have easily taken any amount of force to get out of it. you could c his rudder and ailerons were all in the rite position. i was extremely close to my dad he was my best friend and we did a lot of stuff together like scuba diving and flying and camping and hiking...i have a little brother named michael and my moms name is randy.my dad flew for united airlines and was one of those employees that if u sat in a meeting w/ him u would have to send him several emails after the meeting just so u could understand everything. i miss my dad dearly...but i still fly and he is on my wing tip every time i fly i see him weather he is only there for a split second or if he is there until the airplane is safely on the ground. hez an angel now and hez always w/ me. i remember the phone call...itz one that u never want to get. my dads best friend who was practically his older brother was also a performer in that airshow...his name is don...he has a sukhoi 26 mx...i kno my dad fought till the end...and i kno he would b proud of how well everybody is doing...but i think these things r very interesting...i mean u obviously need to talk about them so that ppl can learn from mistakes...but im not sure i really appreciate ppl trying to say weather or not it was his fault or not b/c clearly it wasnt. if u want to talk to me in email then my email adress is [email protected] or [email protected]
missfire (my dads call sign for me and his was jughead)
07-21-2005, 08:37 PM
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RE: How does this happen"
Stefanie,
Speaking as a private pilot, r/c pilot, and aviation junkie, please accept my sincere condolences on the loss of your father. I didn't know him, and I never saw him perform, but it's clear from your post that you are very proud of him and loved him a lot. I can't imagine the sense of loss you must feel, and I know my words can't change that, but he did give you a wonderful gift by sharing his love of flying with you. Without meaning to sound corny, I hope he continues to live on in your memory, and in your flying. Best wishes.
David
Speaking as a private pilot, r/c pilot, and aviation junkie, please accept my sincere condolences on the loss of your father. I didn't know him, and I never saw him perform, but it's clear from your post that you are very proud of him and loved him a lot. I can't imagine the sense of loss you must feel, and I know my words can't change that, but he did give you a wonderful gift by sharing his love of flying with you. Without meaning to sound corny, I hope he continues to live on in your memory, and in your flying. Best wishes.
David
07-22-2005, 12:52 AM
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RE: How does this happen"
hey guys,
thanx david. i did love my dad a lot and i am very proud of him. i do miss him a lot but he is now helping me in a new special way...and i feel that through flying that helps keep him alive. im not only flying b/c i feel i have to but b/c i cant give it up...there is nothing like being in the cockpit of any airplane. if it werent for my dads accident (and i feel horrible saying this but in a way a little better) then i wouldnt b working on soloing and getting my private pilots lisence b/c i would still b able to fly any time i wanted. how ever i do miss flying w/ him. and trust me we had our fair share of fun...and scary times...like the time my dad had to pretend to knock himself out just to see how i would react. he then pretended to still b knocked out at landing time...i was in formation flight w/ his friend who made the radio calls for me...cuz i was freaked out...how ever my dads friend knew my dad was going to do that on that flight...and i knew my dad was planning on doing it i just wasnt sure of when...and i did get the airplane safely back on the ground...barely might i add...but as many pilots say any landing u walk away from is a good one.
missfire
thanx david. i did love my dad a lot and i am very proud of him. i do miss him a lot but he is now helping me in a new special way...and i feel that through flying that helps keep him alive. im not only flying b/c i feel i have to but b/c i cant give it up...there is nothing like being in the cockpit of any airplane. if it werent for my dads accident (and i feel horrible saying this but in a way a little better) then i wouldnt b working on soloing and getting my private pilots lisence b/c i would still b able to fly any time i wanted. how ever i do miss flying w/ him. and trust me we had our fair share of fun...and scary times...like the time my dad had to pretend to knock himself out just to see how i would react. he then pretended to still b knocked out at landing time...i was in formation flight w/ his friend who made the radio calls for me...cuz i was freaked out...how ever my dads friend knew my dad was going to do that on that flight...and i knew my dad was planning on doing it i just wasnt sure of when...and i did get the airplane safely back on the ground...barely might i add...but as many pilots say any landing u walk away from is a good one.
missfire
