Synthetic

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Now that was cool!!! [8D]

cactusflyer

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..............At that speed....Most likely he would pull some AOA, zoom to about 5000" and make a single-engine approach to any of the 4 or 5 suitable airports within 20 miles. His biggest issue is getting rid of the energy...........I'll just bet that just about ANY and EVERY scenario has been analyzed, reviewed and TRAINED for with the Blue Angles................It certainly wasn't a couple wide-body pilots saying, "Watch this!"

Tailwinds,

John

Robrow

Well certainly some interesting debate but I don't think anyone has answered my original question, perhaps if I expand the question to 'Was the display legal in that place at that time?'

I would like to think from a common sense point of view I know the answer but maybe what is perceived as an unsafe display flight in one part of the aviation world might not be elsewhere.

Certainly all the jet/large model public shows I have attended and flown in here and elesewhere in Europe have some pretty stringent safety rules, a lot of which have taken the lead from contempory fullsize display flying and agreed in consultation with the CAA.

Rob.

PeterDays

Hello

Mr. Gladwin, I agree with all your points of view on this matter. Safety should always come first at airshows, RC events or any other activities we do. Your background supports that, your country, your culture your experience, and that of all the people who make the rules in civilized and first world countries. But....

Safety on this and other matters is perceived very diferently in many parts of the world. Yes like everything else it is a relative term or subject. I have been exposed to your standards so I understand them and abide to them.

I don´t expect for you to back down on your opinion or the intensity of your commments but I understand why JMCJET is a bit pissed and he tried to show it through those funny videos. I live on an island where low flybys over the town by small charter planes where the norm until about five years ago, and people considered them entertaining(most of them anyways) just like most people in "Civilized and first world countries" don´t know where my country is or Portugal or Australia for that matter. Ignorance on all counts

Thanks to FAA pressure things have changed and "your" standards are now the norm, including yor punishments. Things are not perfect but they are definitevily improving at a very fast pace.

If this event took place in Portugal which I consider a First world country I expect this flight to be legal, and if it was not I expect the authorities to take inmediate action to punish those who "according to the laws" and "percieved standards of safety" sidetracked and fouled up. I know of many people that do not look twice at rogue pilots in action on any airfield but consider a .40 sized trainer a "threat". Let´s not even get into jets. Th vast majority of people around here even though they are awed by the presence of an RC jet, they consider it a waste of money and an unnecesary risk to life and property period. Some people think that no level of safety is enough and as you have said yourself in RC jets: There is an accident waiting to happen.

I also know people who are afraid to get on a plane that consider the fact of doing ANY airshow PLAIN STUPID. They just do not perceive that any level of safety is acceptable. I have also had three employees that when they came to the island to work, had NEVER been on an airplane and enjoyed with a certain amount of fear a flight in a 7 seater piston powered Islander. Ignorance is bless!!!.

The point I am trying to make is that people enjoy shows like that without understanding the risks and posible consequences and if they did understand the risks like a professional like yourself, I don´t think they would go anymore What makes you go is your love and passion for aviation and technology and what let you stay is your level of confidence in the securtity measurements.

Before I leave I want to say that your opinion is very valuable for me in this forum, specially in the safety department and I think people should listen to you more. But take a broader look at the world we live in(Outside of first world countries) and that emphasis on safety is just not that important but believe me many countries have a lot of people trying to get to your level but it is hard fighting a whole culture and changing it in a short period.

I leave you another video for all of you to look at and tell me if this is an acceptable level of safety in your country and think what else are people worried about that they dont worry about this. They thinkit is perfectly safe and don´t do anything to remedy the situation, but I bet someone is working to convince citizens and authorities to change that and most will ask Why?. That someone will have to fight that system in particular and will have to do it in a very intelligent way without insulting and making enemies along the way(or at least unnecesary ones)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cYXU9BOw4xM


Greetings to all

Pedro

Shaun Evans

Pedro,

Great video! I've speant a bit of time in Asia, and I've seen "normal" things there (especially in the semi-metropolitan areas of under-developed countries) that would make a westerner who's accustomed to our standards of public safety drop dead of fright. Like you say, "safe" is reckoned differently in different places--although aviation is pretty standardized and growing more so in the developing nations.

You communicate your point very eloquently.

hmjets

Another view of the flyby---('http://www.metacafe.com/w/829673/');

The boys Back

this must be ok as it was full of passengers!!!! this is 100 times worse than the display!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PEhAG2MpHMA

ianober

My Feedback: (12)

I thought that was AWESOME!!!! AIRSHOW BABY!!!!!

EricJ

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iRGac...elated&search=


another view of the blue angels fly by

ianober

My Feedback: (12)

Oh YEAH BABY, that was the Blues at Fleet Week in SF!! Love it when they come to my home town. Recently a SF congressman tried to get the Blues BANNED from SF because he didnt like the the noise over the city. Needless to say I wont be voting for him this year[:'(]. He should ask the people of Iraq what it is like to here military jets roaring over their houses on a daily basis, where he only has to worry about for 4 days a year. Some people are a piece of work!!

David Gladwin

Pedro, Interesting comments and may I point out, again, that the letter I reproduced and with which I associate myself, was written not by me but by a VERY experienced pilot indeed. with a similar RAF background to myself. The RAF, as does the RAAF, continuously seeks the highest possible standards of operational efficiency AND safety in peacetime ops. (and doesnt take unneccesary risks in wartime) It SETS the standards, not follows them, and many airforces around the world seek to emulate those standards. The same is true of BA and BY and the safety and profitability record of those two companies reflects that.

Further, may I refer you to www.Pprune.org rumours and news, A310 low flyby thread where you will read that many professional pilots were absolutely outraged and MUCH more vociferous than I about the display.

I am very conscious that not all counties have the same quality standards of flight ops or safety culture. I used to have a much higher opinion of TAP/ Air Portugal than to indulge in this sort of thing. It woud seem, from professional comment nothing to do with model aviation, they have done themselves a great diservice.

.......and Dave, The KLM 747 was a routine landing, not an airshow stunt.

It will be most interesting to read the aviation press, Flight International, etc. in the next few weeks for any comment on the display.

............so was it legal ? Ask the CAA enforcement branch ! I think I know their answer !

Do we take safety issues seriously enough in RC jets do we discuss them routinely and as an intrinsic aspect of OUR operations ? Well there has not been a single entry on the safety thread since July.

And finally, thank you for your valuable contribution.

Regards,

David Gladwin.

uncljoe

My Feedback: (8)

Rob
For the correct and only answer is to question the CAA or whoever is the aviation authority in the country,where the "Show" is /has taken place. IMO the Blues/Thunderbirds/Snowbirds, do some outstanding flying, and they do some hazardous maneuvers. These men & women do nothing but practice ,practice,practice, but aircraft do crash do to pilot error,mechanical problems, so no place is 100% safe." Feces does happen" .
Semper Fi
Joe

tkielty

what a couple of idots regaurdless of legal or not!!! these guys should not be aloud to fly any more by the airline or any other govering body faa, ect. even if this was a airshow the air comming off the aircraft alone not including the engines could lift and through the planes next to the runway anywhich way as a professional pilot for 10 + yrs. and thousds of hours of flying jets i can say these guys are idots!!!!

ps2727

Let me see, an F-18 does a low fly by and it's cool, an airliner does it and it's the end of the world. Hmmmm.

IceWind

OH NO!
They're starting to do other stuff in airshows rather then straight level flight!!
I think that for a performance demo a simple landing and takeoff would be awesome, the crowd would be wild! Because it's a thing we can't see everyday.

You guy's must attend to such a boring airshows that i just can't imagine!

Criticize someone or something is sooo easy isn't it?

CHAPARRO

Meus amigos.
Antes de mais uma vez que se está a criticar um evento passado em Portugal nada mais natural que se responda na mesma lingua.
Alguem se esqueceu que:
1 - O voo em questão se tratou de um voo efectuado por pilotos experientes que tinham treinado especificamente e exaustivamente estas manobras (ou será que só alguns paises têm pilotos experientes) e num avião sem tripulação.
2 - Trata-se de um Airshow, esperavam o quê, provavelmente uma simples decolagem e aterragem e com um pouco de sorte apreciar o abastecimento dos aviões? Para isso dá um pulo ao aeroporto mais próximo.
3 - Por que não se fala das manobras que se apreciaram no recente evento AirBull Air Race, realizado na grande cidade do Porto em Portugal? Estamos a falar de manobras perigosas em areas residenciais. Será que é por os pilotos não serem portugueses?
4 - Esquecem-se que Ã* paises onde se chega ao cumulo de instalar motores a jacto em motocicletas e fazer show com isso, será que não há riscos.

Convenhamos que em qualquer espectaculo há um elemento de risco, isso é que atrai as pessoas a assistir a esses eventos. I Isto é uma verdade universal, repare-se que os picos de audiencias nas televisões é quando algo mal ocorre.

Deixem-se de tretas e reparem normalmento o maior risco que os espectadores de um Airshow (seja em Portugal ou arredores) o maior risco que os espectadores correm é o de uma insolação.

Passem bem

- Google translation -


My friends.
Before anithing,once that if you are criticizing a past event in Portugal nothing more natural to respond in the same language.
Someone has forgotten that:
1 - The flight concerned it was a flight made by experienced pilots who had trained specifically and extensively these maneuvers (or is that only a few countries have experienced pilots) and on an aircraft without passangers.
2-This is a Airshow, are you expecting what, probably a simple launch and landing and with a bit of luck assess the supply of aircraft? To do so makes a leap to the nearest airport.
3-Why no mention of the maneuvers that are appreciated in the recent event AirBull Air Race, held in the great city of Porto in Portugal? We are talking about dangerous maneuvers in residential areas. Is it by the pilots are not Portuguese?
4-forget is that the countries where it comes to fill to install the jet engines in motorcycles and do show with this, is that there is no risk.

Agree that in any event there is an element of risk, it is that attracts people to attend these events. This is a universal truth, note that the peak hearing on television is when something wrong happens.

Let is tretas and repair normally the greatest danger that viewers of a Airshow (either in Portugal or environs) the greater risk that the audience is the run of a heat stroke.

Well away

Eddie P

My Feedback: (4)

Dudes, I got even more of a kick out the the train market video than I did of the Blues flyby. That was just plain different

David Gladwin

Chapparo, consider this:

TAP /Air Portugal is a very fine airline indeed with an excellent safety record, up there with the best, and has been established for over 60 years . Their last fatal accident was the B727 overrun at Funchal in 1977 when 130 people were killed. An excellent safety record is one of, if not THE, most valuable asset of ANY airline and can take a LONG time to create. The hard won safety reputation of TAP could have been lost in the blink of an eye if that 310 had caught a wingtip and cartwheeled during that ultra low, dangerous, turn. And for what ? This was a minor airshow and the gain for TAP would have been minimal. If it HAD gone wrong TAP would have been on the front page of every newspaper in the Western world (and perhaps elesewhere) for all the wrong reasons.

I cannot understand just what possessed the TAP flight operations management to risk their reputation in this way, by allowing this sort of flying with one of their aeroplanes, it seems quite bizarre.

Regards,

David Gladwin.

erbroens

Chaparro, antes de mais nada seja bem vindo ao RCU ja que este e a sua primeira vez neste forum. A questão original deste thread e o questionamento da legalidade de uma exibiçao ousada de um aviao de passageiros em um show aereo, (nem preciso comentar que a nacionalidade e irrelevante, apesar disto doer mais aos lusofonos, por este aviao ser da TAP). Nao fica somente a questao do piloto ter "quase" tocado a ponta da asa no chao, mas sim sobre que tratamento este piloto da a um aviao que eventualmente eu ou voce poderemos usar futuramente.. sera que podera haver danos a estrutura por fazer com ele manobras "ousadas" ? ou sera que o piloto e do tipo "ousado" demais? isto cria questoes perturbadoras adicionais para os passageiros, que ja estes ja estao perturbados com a falta de infraestrutura aerea que esta assolando o mundo, em graus maiores e menores e e agudamente no Brasil... Inquestionavelmente este piloto errou ao fazer uma demonstraçao destas, em um aviao da TAP.

Caso isto fosse feito com um Extra 300 Redbull particular ou um F-18 de uma esquadrilha de demonstração aerea, seria permissivel ao piloto cometer um erro, como este quase toque ao solo , mas neste caso , usando um jato de passageiro e no minimo, bizarro como o Sr. David G. comentou.

Enrique´s translation:

Chaparro, first of all welcome to RCU as this is your first post. The oriqinal question in this thread is about the legality of such a daring exhibition of a passenger jet on a airshow. ( the nationality of this affair is not in question and it is irrelevant, even if this is particulary annoying for the Portuguese as this is a TAP plane). There is not only the point about this pilot almost touched ground with the wingtip, but also how this pilot
cares about this plane wich could be eventually taken by you and me. Could it have it´s structure weakened
by such daring maneuvers? or is this pilot a hotdog one? This adds more disturbing questions for passengers that are already scared with security issues or problems like underdeveloped airport structure wich is pestering the world in different degrees and particulary badly in Brazil. Without doubt this pilot made a mistake making such a demonstration in a TAP plane.

If the same thing was made with a Extra 300 in a Redbull race or a F-18 from a demonstration squadron, the pilot would be allowed to do it so, but in this particular case, doing it with a passenger plane is at least bizarre, like David G. said.



Best regards, Enrique

john agnew

David

You are wasting your valuable experience and breath on these guys. Some people will just never understand what you are talking about. Quite frankly I was absolutely appalled by that demonstration. As you are well aware disasters can happen even at well regulated airshows and this should have not been allowed under any circumstances.

Best regards

John

CHAPARRO

Segundo o que um amigo dos pilotos do referido avião afirmou noutro forum o A310 foi ao show com o objectivo de marcar o phase out deste avião da frota TAP, ou seja a partir de Novembro, estes aviões começam a ser retirados. Pelo que muito dificilmente iremos usar este avião.
Transcrevendo uma resposta que foi dada por ele relativamente a esse evento:
Para quem não conhece Évora, a pista é inclinada e bem, pelo que o ângulo de filmagem do vÃ*deo dá a ideia de que a asa toca ou quase toca na pista. Também no Youtube há um vÃ*deo em que se vê bem a real altura da ponta da asa Ã* pista é só uma questão de procurar.


Tradução do Google
According to a friend of the pilots of the plane in another forum said the A310 was the show with the aim of scoring the phase out of this airplane fleet TAP, ie from November, the aircraft begin to be withdrawn. For that very unlikely we will use this aircraft.
Transcrevendo a response that was given by him for that event:
For those who do not know Évora, the track is tilted and well, and the angle of filming the video gave the idea that wing touches or almost touch the runway. Also in Youtube there is a video in which he sees a real good time for the wing tip of the runway is only a matter of searching.

Synthetic

My Feedback: (18)

Well, if the plane is going to be phased out...then it shouldn't be a problem if it crashes and kills many people.

Now that we know more about it .... it makes sense..... ..

erbroens

Bem, o jeito e esperar ate dezembro para voar em um avião da TAP... e sem duvida, este avião não ira para o deserto ser desmanchado, ele sera usado ainda por alquem menos afortunado.

Quanto a proximidade da asa ao solo e a inclinação da pista , no youtube aparecem todos os angulos e nota-se
indiscutivelmente o erro de percepção do piloto, que evidentemente errou muito, muito feio.

Translat.

Well, so we will need to wait until december to take a TAP´s plane... and this plane will not be recycled in the desert right now, it will still be used by less fortunate people.

About the wingtip to ground clearance , in Youtube is shown many angles and without a doubt, that was a gross perception error from the pilot.

CHAPARRO

Por essa ordem de ideias nao seria problema se:
- Os aviões dos Blue Angels cairem e matarem muitas pessoas
- Os aviões do Red Bull Air Race cairem e matarem muitas pessoas
- O avião de qualquer espectaculo aereo cair e matar muitas pessoas.

Como já tinha dito antes
Os pilotos ensaiaram exaustivamente a manobra, apesar disso é claro que existe sempre um elemento de risco. Mas esse elemento de risco está presente em qualquer evento desde um Airshow até ao jogo de futebol lá da terra. Um simples carro na estrada ao estar a circular corre o risco de que se perca o controle e que se estampe contra um agrupamento de pessoas provocando a sua morte.

Agora se procurarem no YouTube vêm-se videos de manobras bem mais arrojadas efectuadas com aviões de carreira cheios de passageiros, e ninguem se pronuncia aqui contra isso, porque será? Prefiro não acreditar que se trate apenas de dor de cotovelo.

Esta será a minha última resposta a este tópico.
Apenas deixo em jeito de despedida que agradeço que tenham reparado num evento que se passou neste pequeno e belo pais.É sinal que apesar de sermos pequenos ainda conseguimos chamar a atenção e levantar picos de ciumes em outros paises que se julgam os donos do mundo ficando tão ofendidos quando vêm fazer-se coisas que nao se aproximam da estupidez que se pratica diariamente em casa. Lá diz o velho ditado "Se tens telhados de vidros nãoa tires pedras ao vizinho".

E, desta vez que traduza quem quiser.

Abraços

Synthetic

My Feedback: (18)

CHAPARRO ,
What does that mean in English?