west6008

Reports in the media tell of a serious pilot shortage, causing delays,
even danger.

A case of some very tired chickens coming home to roost.

A series of fruitcake lawsuits starting in the 70's put companies like
Cessna on the rocks, and put the cost of flight instruction through the roof.
This kept a lot of young guys from getting into aviation.

Chip_Mull

My Feedback: (1)

Could the mandatory retirement at age 60 have any effect on this? I hope they cancel 50% of their flights. Better that than fly the pilots 100 hours a month.

PLANE JIM

My Feedback: (109)

or introduce contract pilots with no benefits at 1/2 the pay.

049flyer

My Feedback: (18)

Pilot Shortage? What a joke that is!

There never has been a shortage of pilots and there never will be.

There will always be a shortage of qualified pilots willing to start for $30,000 per year. I happen to think there is a shortage of gardeners! Can't seem to find one to mow my yard for $2.50. Why is that? Set the pilot starting pay at $85,000 per year and see how many qualified pilots you get. Can't afford to pay your starting pilot as much as a starting mechanic? Why is that?

Get rid of the seniority system and hire qualified pilots straight into the left seat at captains pay. Your pilot shortage will be over in nanoseconds!

Don't like the management? So quit!

The problem is the airline mentality, seniority system, the A scale/ B Scale BS and unions. When you enable qualified individuals to change
jobs without taking a 200% cut in pay you will solve these "shortages".

It's all about supply and demand and allowing individuals to seek the best opportunity for themselves. The airline/union system is designed to prevent the free movement of qualified people.

TFF

The regional I worked for is now hiring 250hr kids which is about the only people who can survive on $20K.

Chris Moon

My Feedback: (8)

The "shortage" is due to:
1. Major airlines outsourcing their mainline flying to the lowest bidder (rj's) faster than they can absorb the flying.
2. Lack of people willing to drop $75,000 to $100,000 on training and work for $20K

Tripower455

My Feedback: (2)

I thought Kit Darby was responsible for the "pilot shortage" that's been coming for at least 25 years?

Semi Retired Aviator

I heard about the pilot shortage back in the 70's when I was a private pilot so I studied like hell and got my ATPL, and then got myself screwed by smallish operators until I managed to break into an airline. Pay was good there, but it never reflected the desperate shortage I kept hearing about.

I retired a couple of years ago still hearing about the desperate shortage but salaries were falling with low cost carriers, pilots are now paying for their first jet endorsement, still copping it up the butt from management, and on it goes.

In Qantas, a long haul cabin manager is being paid more than a second officer on a 747!! They serve the drinks for ***** sake.

Shortage?? I dont want to hear about.

Kweasel

My Feedback: (29)

There is too many people in love with aviation to ever have a true shortage of willing employees. There are currently many times more qualified pilots and mechanics than jobs available. The only shortage that aviation has right now is suckers willing to work for free.

FLYBOY

My Feedback: (11)

Ditto!

Flight schools are telling the world this to sell spots in their classes. I have been hearing this since the early 90s when I went to flight school. They all use that ploy to get more people into their schools and make big promises. Out of 64 that started with my class, ony about 5 of those are still flying, and maybe one or two of them with an airline.

There is no better job, but there is no shortage!

Hossfly

Pilots will always be in short supply. OTOH, airplane drivers are extremely plentiful.

That is because there are so many "airplane drivers" that will do whatever management wants, whenever management wants, however management wants, and do it all for pennies to assure that top management and directors get their 20 million bonuses each year. After 1985, I willingly addressed them as "SCABS". Now I don't have to address such low-life.

HA! HA! That, sir, cannot be any further from the truth. You want some high level manager's favorite daughter-in-law, straight out of flying school, and with the help of "parker pen", comes up with 1500 hours so that alcoholic FAA troop getting "management first class passes" from management, can give 22 year-old 'd-i-l' an ATP and a rating ride, to now jump in and keep you from moving into a vacant left seat position, or worse yet out of a left seat and be told to hit the road if you, "Don't like the management? So quit!"
Sonny Boy, you are so very naive about the aviation life. "Qualification" is all determined in the Bar, on the golf course, personal relationships, and above all governmental policies of hiring/firing, both in the military and the airline business. Performance in the cockpit has NOTHING to do with it. [:'(]

The "Seniority system" is the ONLY system that can work in the On-the-Line portion of airline business. Yes, it interrupted my life several times, during the build-up and subsequent furlough, then build-up again, then furlough again airline life, but I would never have worked in the "non-skeds" where it does not exist.
The Unions have had to surrender, basically because there is no shortage of "airplane drivers" that will prostitute themselves to get any job, will not support the Union, kiss the behinds of management every chance they have, and think management is going to take care of them. Such IDIOTS fly airplanes and other idiots seek the lowest price to fly on those airplanes.

While I, as all others, had to retire at the federally mandated age 60, almost 12 years ago for me, I would have hated to have to been without the Air Line Pilots Association, and the seniority system. I would have been loading baggage, and taking tickets as well as PILOTING the machine.
Then I don't believe you are an airline pilot right now. There is no worse job. Between thieving management and a tremendously understaffed air-traffic-control system trying to provide separation to all those extra SMALL airplanes thrown into the air by that STUPID, Thieving management, it's a very long tiring day for little pay. The pay is based on FLIGHT hours. Even I spent too many 16 hours on-duty-days for 2-3 hours pay. It wasn't much fun then and damn well isn't fun now.

13 years USAF. 28 years UAL

Matt_McCarty

My Feedback: (2)

"The pay is based on FLIGHT hours. Even I spent too many 16 hours on-duty-days for 2-3 hours pay. It wasn't much fun then and damn well isn't fun now. "

100% correct!

amen

LowFlyBye

While I do not disagree with your thought process behind many of your comments I must point out that the above statements resemble a pot calling the kettle black. You speak as though you are a current airline pilot suffering through these attrocities, yet you previously pointed out that you retired 12 years ago. Don't you think that you have been out of the loop a bit long to speak on such subjects with such a high level of authority as you seem to be portraying?

I noticed that you are a retired UAL captain (I would assume captain) which means that you have indeed gotten the shaft from management and taken a huge hit on your retirement. This also means that you have a very negative bias towards the airlines (who wouldn't in your shoes) but all carriers are not as you make them seem and the small airplanes are not your problem with the crowded air traffic system. You can thank the hub & spoke system and the airline scheduling management for that one. The days can be long and the pay based on less hours than your actual time "on the clock", but I can think of many worse jobs than flying and most of them pay a whole lot less. Pilots are among the top 10% best paying jobs...and you are complaining about the pay and the hours with a major carrier?

Again...pot calling the kettle black. UAL pilots got the shaft from the "thieving management" who cut their retirement. So you fall into that catagory of "airplane drivers" that you are talking so badly about. You trusted them to take care of you in retirement (as they should have...I do not agreeing with what they did). I just hope that you took your own advice that you are so richly giving to us naive "airplane drivers" and did not trust them to take care of you in the golden years. I hope you invested / saved on your own terms as well instead of spending all of that "little pay"

You pointed out that pilots will always be in short supply whereas airplane drivers will be plentiful. I tend to agree there, anyone can drive an airplane, but to do it well requires a pilot. However, I strongly disagree with your percieved definition of a pilot. A pilot IS NOT defined by where his allegences lie...a company or with the union. A pilot is defined by his respect for aviation, respect for fellow aviators no matter what their skill level, and his willingness to continually improve his skills and share them with others.

I would rather fly with a "prostitute" pilot who loves flying and is willing to work for "pennies" on whatever flights management wants, whenever management wants, and however management wants in order to reach his dream than a high and mighty captain who's view has been tainted by the "business" and seems to know more than he understands, yet has forgotten his love of aviation and what it really means to be a pilot.

Just some thoughts from a pilot who still has his love for aviation.

Tripower455

My Feedback: (2)

As a current 121 airline Captain with 21 years in so far, I'll back up Hoss's post as 95% accurate and germaine to the job today.......

Hossfly

Not at all. I was very pro-company for 17 years even though I could read between the lines of company propaganda and I had to endure much through the ups and downs that I never expected. I think my best transient times were during the last company "great depression" when there was a big furlough in 1981. After 13 years, I was very comfortable as a mid-senior DC-8 First Officer (co-pilot) and then "Boom" the reduction in force came. I washed back from DC-8 CP to 727 CP to DC-10 Second Officer back to DC-8 Second Officer in a period of 6 months. Less than a year later I was back to 737 FO then back to 727 FO and shortly 727 Captain. All that downsize was purely due to management incompetence.
Then came the UAL Pilot strike in '85. No need to say anymore than the strike was engineered by Ferris and crew, because the Continental strike had failed so miserably for the pilots due to the airplane-driver cave-in. Ferris admitted all this in court. Ironically, just a few days ago in my cleaning of some old records, I was reading over that stuff in a saved copy of "Crain's Chicago Business, November 30, 1987." What I say is documented fact. Ferris wanted to break ALPA on United property. He didn't make it.

He did shortly after do the Pan-Am merger thing and brought in some 500 Pan Am pilots. Most were second officers for 15-18 years. Due to court decisions especially for those ex-National troops, they were integrated into the seniority system. Half were 2-4 years LESS airline time than me yet were given seniority OVER me. That cost me a DC-10 / 747 Captain bid my last several years.
Another thing I endured but still the seniority system had more good than bad.

Since as a T-33 and T-38 Instructor Pilot in the USAF for a few years, I taught students academic Air Traffic Control Procedures, was Wing Instrument Training Officer, and later held that position in a tactical unit. In the airline days, I found it very interesting to keep current on the ATC changes and lack thereof during airline operations, especially during the period of the controller strike and ever afterwards. I kept myself informed of the "business" of ALPA, UAL, and ATC.
I have a son, age 49, that was in the USAF. He instructed in the NATO program, was assigned into the MC-130 (Special OPS Ultra Top Secret mission) flew many hours over places that cannot be said here, became a top plans manager and evaluator in the latest version of the MC-130, picked to be a 4-star General's Aide, and then left the USAF to go to UAL, much against my advice.

He joined a C-5 Reserve unit. Just finished his probation year, and BOOM, 9-1-1. Recalled to active duty, and shortly thereafter officially furloughed by UAL. Anyway, I got UAL updates then plus from friends in the area. Last Dec. son had his 20 years USAF, retired and returned to United. With an Astronautical Engineering degree from Purdue and a MBA from somewhere else, I cannot understand why he is doing that. His choice. However with some 12000 hours from supersonic to heavy-heavy and considerable combat time, even I think that a co-pilot on a 737 would be hard to swallow, as SO duties were for me at the time. Yet I believe firmly in the Seniority system.

So I haven't forgotten UAL and/or keeping up with the airline business. You say I know more than I understand. I disagree as I think I understand it all very well, except why good people put up with the crap.

Thanks for your concern, however I don't think I will starve to death for at least another 20 years even if the pension stopped tomorrow. I took care of myself for many years so I do well at it now, however I am NOT a workaholic.

I suppose each must realize where his priorities are. "Love of flying" never paid my bills. All I ever got from stating, "I am a pilot" was "How nice, now will you be paying by cash, check or charge card?"

I was proud, but somewhat scared when I pinned on those USAF wings at age 20. I hated to leave the AF, however I had 3 kids to send to school and college. The airlines promised to be a better place to do that. When I climbed out of the jet, and turned in my helmet and 'chute, I knew the glory was GONE! After that only money counted, and I wanted some to count. [>:]

Best of Luck to you.

PLANE JIM

My Feedback: (109)

I hate to say this but Hoss is RIGHT ON!!!!!!!!!!!!! ALPA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Semi Retired Aviator

Well I haven't flown in the US except for a few weeks training at Boeing, but I spent a career in Australia and about five years in Asia, (Singapore, Japan and Vietnam) and Hossfly's comments apply wherever I've been.

The seniority system MUST stay; at least everybody gets a go at the LHS in an orderly fashion. I know some guys who have passed it up because THEY know they're not up to it at the time their numbers came up.

Those of us who have spent half a life time as aircraft commanders see it as the easiest job in the world, but riding a bike was too once you got the hang of it. Training is what it's about, and that's being reduced, and the authority of the PIC is being eroded at every turn.

When I underwent my command training many years back, the guy who checked me out gave me a couple of bits of advice: 1. Enjoy it, but the LHS can be a lonely place some times 2. Every ***** in the airline wants to be in your seat, earning your salary, until things go pear shaped. He was right on both.

When things do go pear shaped, you can guarantee the management will be out to crucify you, rightly or wrongly.

The problem we face is that there is always someone willing to do it for less/nothing just to get the job (and they think there is something romantic about flying 400 sphincters through the night across the Pacific).....except the guy who cuts your grass, and he's not smart enough to do so. He doesn't care if he works or not.

I loved my time in the flight deck, but would I go back? I still get emails almost daily from recruiting agencies, and I think about it for about 5 micro seconds before I reply in the negative. It's just not the same; not much is, but aviation seems to have changed more than most with execs screwing the guys who generate the revenue so they can get their fat bonuses. Their invention, and the proliferation of, LCC's has seen the career of the airline pilot downgraded to nomore than a tradesman.

No sir, it's not what it once was, and Hossfly, you're right.

FLYBOY

My Feedback: (11)

Your right, I don't fly for an airline, never will. I stayed in the private sector, its a lot more friendly, most days. We still have to deal with jet owners who are a pain in the tail, but I got jucky enough to find a great company years ago and I hope to be with them till I retire. I have enjoyed every flight with them to the max, accept one, and that wasn't their fault. It pays to still like your job. Makes life a lot easier and you tend to look at things a little better and not be so darn negative about everything that comes your way. [8D]

Hossfly

That's wonderful, Flyboy. I love to hear that a pilot has a good job and is very happy with it. In fact I love it when a person is satisfied with his position-in-life no matter what it might be.

Just for your info this might be even mor to make you happy where you are: Email from an old AF modeling buddy that got a tad screwed on from Pan AM. He received it from a buddy of his.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
American Airlines Flight 1400
This happened to Kevin May (First Officer) on September 28 climbing out of STL (St. Louis) headed for ORD (OHare). He is the husband of Jane May who is our best flight attendant here at the Pfizer Air Shuttle. While on climb out they had a fire bell and light going off, all the instruments on the captains side went blank and they lost all hydraulics. The captain gave the aircraft to Kevin to fly since he (captain) had lost all his instruments. As they circled and lined up with the runway to make an emergency landing the tower stated "....your nose wheel isn't down." Kevin elected to do a single engine go around which gave the captain enough time to hand crank the nose wheel do wn right before they touched down on the runway. The MD-80 was full and thankfully no one was injured.

The FAA and NTSB are involved and as always are playing Monday morning quarterback. After reviewing the cockpit recorder tapes they are saying that the pilots screwed up and should have evacuated the a/c after landing with the emergency slides. As Kevin stated to me, why injure people unnecessarily with an evacuation with the slides when the fire was already out. They did an evacuation but not with the slides. Yes, they did the engine shutdown checklist, and the engine fire memory items, and flew the airplane, and put the nose gear down by hand, was talking to the control tower, etc). Kevin May and the captain are still NOT on flying status (they are grounded) because the FAA and the NTSB are not finished. Makes you want to go fly for the airlines, doesn't it ????????


*****This Just In*****

Flight 1400 Crew endures engine fire, loss of hydraulics and electrics on left side, executes flawless single-engine go-around due to gear not extending, then gets reassigned
Brundage: "We'll just have to educate the dumb pilots that they're overpaid and under worked."
<<<<<<<<<<<<<

Tripower455

My Feedback: (2)

Welcome to my world. Add the tSA nonsense to the mix, lousy schedules, passing a physical every 6 months, a "you bet your ticket/job" PC every year, Flight ops pubs that are written in lawyer speak, ridiculous "harassment" policies, tough commutes etc. (the list goes on and on) and it is the not the BEST job in the world. I have very little authority but ALL of the responsibility. Heaven forbid I use my judgement and do what I think is right (like the guys on 1400, who I AGREE with btw), and my livlihood is in jeopordy. almost 20k hours of 100% safe operation is out the friggin window.

I used to love flying. I don't hate it now, but I can honestly say that the best part of the job is the paycheck (for now) and the people I work with come in a very close second. The time off is nice too, but I truly PAY for that when i am at work. Everything else pretty much sucks. And I work for a good, profitable airline.

Flying today is not like the "Catch Me if You Can" days........

FLYBOY

My Feedback: (11)

Not just the airline Hoss, any time you get anything like that, they always have to find a way to pin it on the pilot. It is a joke. When I went down, the turbo exploded on take off at 100 feet due to a mechanic leaving an instruction sheet in the turbo filter. It blew the back side off the turbo at 100 feet. The NTSB and FAA said that not many would have landed it right side up the way it happened, and although they found the manual wedged in the turbo and the back side blown out, they still had to put one little "screw the pilot" clause in. It wasn't there when the report came out, and the mechanics lawyers threatened to sue them and it ended up in there. They last line claims that the plane was something like 50 pounds over gross, which anyone knows had nothing to do with the crash, but they could use that line in court to get out of the liability of being stupid and leaving the manual in.

They always blame the pilot! That is the sucky part of our business. All liability and no money.

Its still a fun job. I have always been glad I don't fly for the airline though.

jetboy2003

So what do you guys suggest us young guys do... I have 800TT and am looking for something other than instructing... Airlines are the only ones hiring us...

FLYBOY

My Feedback: (11)

If you like it, do it. Nothing wrong with airlines. I have a lot of friends flying for the. Most enjoy the heck out of it. I laugh at the ones that make over a hundred grand a year, fly sweet scedules and whine about being under paid and over worked. I laugh and tell them to go get a real job and see how the other half live. I find it hard to feel sorry for someone making over a hundred grand a year and whining about being under paid in any job. I have a friend that flys a Citation X, making 6 figures, and works 2 weeks on, 2 weeks off. All they do is whine about the crappy scedule and low pay. I can't say I feel sorry for them.

If you like flying and enjoy doing what you are doing, go for it. People are going to whine about it, you just have to not let it affect you.

Enjoy it, I like it all. I got sick of being on the road in the jet for 2 weeks at a time, but it beats the heck out of an office job.

jetboy2003

Thanks for the input Flyboy... As I see it right now, flying the airlines will just be a stepping stone for me to move on to bigger and better things... I am contemplating sending my app into Great Lakes. I have heard alot of good and bad about the company, but for what I am looking for right now, the good outweighs the bad. The lifestyle seems to fit what I need now for beginning my career. Any other thoughts??

FLYBOY

My Feedback: (11)

Any job gets old when you are on the road a lot and feel like the company doesn't care. I have gone through times in my career that I didn't want to do it. I think you go through that in anything you do. If you like it, you can weather it. If you don't like it, there is always walmart. I worked as hard as I could to get into jets fast, and then after a few years decided I was sick of being on the road so much. I ended up in an aerial photography gig that was awesome. I am still the chief pilot but dont get to fly any more due to a STUPID STUPID mechanic. I hope to be back in the plane soon.

All I can say is don't ever let them get you down on flying. If you get out of the plane, you will miss it bad. If you don't, then it was just a job. That happens a lot too. For me, it was a lifesyle. You gotta love it. [8D]