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Old 09-19-2010, 09:57 PM
  #1
rcplanenut
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Default 3D flying

Can anyone tell me if AMA has come up with the definition for 3D flying yet. Once again my club is trying to ban/limit 3D flying, but how can you ban it if there is no official definition for it.
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Old 09-19-2010, 10:17 PM
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Default RE: 3D flying

I dont know how you can ban that because there will always be people that will get offended and leave the club. I dont do "3d" but I dont mind seeing it every now and then. The only time it kind of bugs me is when they hover right over the runway and dont move when others try to take off or land. As long as they do it on the far side of the runway or up high it doesnt bother me at all.
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Old 09-19-2010, 10:32 PM
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Default RE: 3D flying

We have some old far%'s that don't like the noise, so they want to ban it. It's funny because most of them don't even fly, they come to the field just to talk, but they pay there dues so i guess they can do that. If someone wants to take off or land then the 3D fliers clear the flightline in a timley manner so thats not the problem.
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Old 09-19-2010, 10:33 PM
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Default RE: 3D flying

Put into your bylaws wordage that states no aerobatic manoeuvres directly over the runway or within 'x' feet of such and such boundary(s). I wouldn't bar the 3D folks- they may wish to fly other airplanes, too, but be put off if banned altogether. We need all the club members we can get! As a side note- I am interested only in scale and don't much care for 'other stuff' but it's a fact of 'flying' life.
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Old 09-19-2010, 10:38 PM
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Default RE: 3D flying


Quote:
ORIGINAL: rcplanenut

We have some old far%'s that don't like the noise, so they want to ban it. It's funny because most of them don't even fly, they come to the field just to talk, but they pay there dues so i guess they can do that. If someone wants to take off or land then the 3D fliers clear the flightline in a timley manner so thats not the problem.
It's amazing how prevalent 'old fart$ who never fly but always complain' are! I used to belong to a club locally that was packed full of the type. One member even rationalized their ability to dictate to other members for the reason only that they are there a lot and kinda watch over the place'! The fact is they watch over the place and run off good members and potential members! If you want details then PM for I won't put it on here!
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Old 09-19-2010, 11:33 PM
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Default RE: 3D flying

I suggest not fretting too much over trying to get a definition of what 3d is so you can it by buzzword,
just ban the things you dont like about 3d.

If I asked you to list some of the things about 3D that have caused your club to need a ban,
just ban each of those things regardless if they can be grouped with terms like 3D or RC or Aeromodeling
.... forget the buzzword groupings
just ban hovering within 50' of spectators if its the loud hovering that the chit chat members dont like
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Old 09-20-2010, 01:21 AM
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Default RE: 3D flying


Quote:
ORIGINAL: rcplanenut

Can anyone tell me if AMA has come up with the definition for 3D flying yet. Once again my club is trying to ban/limit 3D flying, but how can you ban it if there is no official definition for it.

To the best of my knowledge the AMA does not define what "3D" is. In addition, I have not heard any talk about trying to do so.
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Old 09-20-2010, 07:06 AM
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Default RE: 3D flying

I would think every club has a flight rule that you must fly the pattern when there's more than one model in the air.( to avoid midairs as a safety factor) So if someone is flying 3d stage front and your ready to take off you call out going up and the 3d'er goes right into circle pattern flying until the air is clear again.
At the clubs I fly the members know how each member flies and give a 3d'er the courtesy of free space when he flies, he lands happy that he did his thing and returns the favor to the other fliers.

It's not reasonable and unsafe to fly stage front 3d right in front of another fliers face as he's flying his $$$$ scale model in a reasonable manner.
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Old 09-20-2010, 07:17 AM
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Default RE: 3D flying

We have no rules about flying a pattern. The purpose of this rule is to limit 3D flying because it bothers the old fart$ who don't even fly. We also try to stay out of the way of the other flyers, as they have not made any complaints. It's only the old fart$ the don't fly who are complaining
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Old 09-20-2010, 08:06 AM
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Default RE: 3D flying

I still fail to see how banning "3D" (hovering, rolling Harrier etc) done 100 out and 100 up
is needed
if the problem guys are having is of a Within 50' scope.

Did the club ban breaking in an engine?
Cause that is really loud and annoying to sit next to.
Our club chose not to ban all engine break in, but to rule that it must be done at that one far bench alone off to the side.

So why ban all 3D, if the problem is a Too Close problem not a Your Vertical problem,
just set a 'No Hovering within 50' of othe pilots & spectators without their permission' rule.
The chit chat folks can get their quiet time,
and when the chit chatters are not there the 3D folks can agree to shave each others faces with 8krpm prop tips
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Old 09-20-2010, 09:40 AM
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Default RE: 3D flying


Quote:
ORIGINAL: rcplanenut

Can anyone tell me if AMA has come up with the definition for 3D flying yet. Once again my club is trying to ban/limit 3D flying, but how can you ban it if there is no official definition for it.
AMA does not make rules for Clubs other than the basic Safety Rules which basically are a function for providing the liability insurance policy. All of us can be very thankful for that.
Why can your Club NOT make its own rules? You do not need to have a "government" do everything for you. Most clubs have grown men as a majority. Simply stand up and decide what you want, what the results may be and if you are satisfied with such results, then make whatever rule you want.

You can define 3D to suit your needs. You can define the quality of membership you want as a Club. Those definitions are for YOU to make, not some group sitting at a table somewhere else and trying to define what is best for YOU. Never let it happen. If you do, their definitions will become a cancer that will never cease taking more.
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Old 09-20-2010, 12:00 PM
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Default RE: 3D flying


Quote:
ORIGINAL: rcplanenut

We have no rules about flying a pattern. The purpose of this rule is to limit 3D flying because it bothers the old fart$ who don't even fly. We also try to stay out of the way of the other flyers, as they have not made any complaints. It's only the old fart$ the don't fly who are complaining
Clubs added these rules back in the sixties and seventies when multi-channel radios were introduced, thereby extended aerobatics came to the club fields and had to be controlled in some way. 3d style flying goes back further than you think, it was just labeled 3d when QQ Somenzi started winning contests with his style of flying. Labeling can sometimes make things to be evil to some people, maybe we should go back to calling it AEROBATICS OR FREESTYLE.

All types of modelling and flying is good for the soul and meant to be enjoyed, and kept that way into the future generation.

It would be better that you posted your problem and then told us how you solved the problem satisfying most all involved. Then us old fart$ would know how to solve a similar situation when it occurs as we become older.

Good luck with your endeaver.
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Old 09-20-2010, 12:23 PM
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Default RE: 3D flying

If 2 guys can't figure out how to avoid a midair...REGARDLESS OF THE PATTERN FLOWN, then they should take up basket weaving.

Refer to my signature line if those non-flying, no-fun geezer types keep "giving you the business".

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Old 09-20-2010, 12:37 PM
  #14
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Default RE: 3D flying


Quote:
ORIGINAL: HIGHSTRUT


Quote:
ORIGINAL: rcplanenut

We have no rules about flying a pattern. The purpose of this rule is to limit 3D flying because it bothers the old fart$ who don't even fly. We also try to stay out of the way of the other flyers, as they have not made any complaints. It's only the old fart$ the don't fly who are complaining
Clubs added these rules back in the sixties and seventies when multi-channel radios were introduced, thereby extended aerobatics came to the club fields and had to be controlled in some way. 3d style flying goes back further than you think, it was just labeled 3d when QQ Somenzi started winning contests with his style of flying. Labeling can sometimes make things to be evil to some people, maybe we should go back to calling it AEROBATICS OR FREESTYLE.

All types of modelling and flying is good for the soul and meant to be enjoyed, and kept that way into the future generation.

It would be better that you posted your problem and then told us how you solved the problem satisfying most all involved. Then us old fart$ would know how to solve a similar situation when it occurs as we become older.

Good luck with your endeaver.
If you look at my first post you will see that I have stated my problem. Someone in our club has proposed a rule change to ban/limit 3D flying. This has been tried before in the past at our club. Since there was no definition for 3D it would be difficult to enforce this rule because there would be many different inturpratations of what 3D is( so which one's are right and which one's are wrong). I am trying to get this rule change voted down, just as I did in the past.
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Old 09-20-2010, 12:50 PM
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Default RE: 3D flying


Quote:
ORIGINAL: rcplanenut


Quote:
ORIGINAL: HIGHSTRUT


Quote:
ORIGINAL: rcplanenut

We have no rules about flying a pattern. The purpose of this rule is to limit 3D flying because it bothers the old fart$ who don't even fly. We also try to stay out of the way of the other flyers, as they have not made any complaints. It's only the old fart$ the don't fly who are complaining
Clubs added these rules back in the sixties and seventies when multi-channel radios were introduced, thereby extended aerobatics came to the club fields and had to be controlled in some way. 3d style flying goes back further than you think, it was just labeled 3d when QQ Somenzi started winning contests with his style of flying. Labeling can sometimes make things to be evil to some people, maybe we should go back to calling it AEROBATICS OR FREESTYLE.

All types of modelling and flying is good for the soul and meant to be enjoyed, and kept that way into the future generation.

It would be better that you posted your problem and then told us how you solved the problem satisfying most all involved. Then us old fart$ would know how to solve a similar situation when it occurs as we become older.

Good luck with your endeaver.
If you look at my first post you will see that I have stated my problem. Someone in our club has proposed a rule change to ban/limit 3D flying. This has been tried before in the past at our club. Since there was no definition for 3D it would be difficult to enforce this rule because there would be many different inturpratations of what 3D is( so which one's are right and which one's are wrong). I am trying to get this rule change voted down, just as I did in the past.
My definition of 3D is "keeping the plane in the air when it is going too slow to keep it in the air"
Really, the standard definition I've always heard and used is flying on a stalled wing.
The most common 3D moves are hover, harrier, rolling harrier, and some spins, and combinations of
all of the above.

If the members are so nit-picky they can't decide what is 3D and what is not,
you guys have more problems than just this.
Good luck.
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Old 09-20-2010, 01:49 PM
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Default RE: 3D flying

Is a 'waterfall' performed way up in the sky considered "3D"?
What about a Immelman? Imolen???? Immolmin????[:@]
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Old 09-20-2010, 01:57 PM
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Default RE: 3D flying


Quote:
ORIGINAL: KidEpoxy

I suggest not fretting too much over trying to get a definition of what 3d is so you can it by buzzword,
just ban the things you dont like about 3d.

If I asked you to list some of the things about 3D that have caused your club to need a ban,
just ban each of those things regardless if they can be grouped with terms like 3D or RC or Aeromodeling
.... forget the buzzword groupings
just ban hovering within 50' of spectators if its the loud hovering that the chit chat members dont like
That's a very good suggestion.

Rather than a general "3d flying" ban just pick the particular offending manuever. Probably hovering and torque rolling over the run way and in front of other pilots would be the biggest offender. No need to throw the baby out with the bathwater.

I have noticed though that most of the unpleasantness and notgettingalonginess in clubs is caused by "old farts". What's up with them and why can't they abide the "new farts"?
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Old 09-20-2010, 02:27 PM
  #18
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Default RE: 3D flying

simple rule rule of thumb no flying in such a way as to impede others from taking off or landing and or flying in such a way as to impede others from flying normal circuits and or taking off and landing problem solved, hogging the flying space is hogging the flying space be it 3-d or whatever else, every paid member has a right by membership to his or her flying time "JOINTLY" with any and all other members, membership does not give you exclusive rights to airspace just because you were there first.
The way I look at it if you want to hover your $5000 comp arf in the way of me landing my $500 twist well ok I can recover from a $500 loss alot quicker than you can recover from a $5000 loss so have at it this is shared airspace and common courtesy rules apply
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Old 09-20-2010, 03:12 PM
  #19
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Default RE: 3D flying

would it be fair to say

simple rule rule of thumb no flying in such a way as to impede others from taking off or landing and or flying in such a way as to impede others from flying normal circuits 3D and or taking off and landing problem solved, hogging the flying space is hogging the flying space be it 3-d Racetrack or whatever else, every paid member has a right by membership to his or her flying time "JOINTLY" with any and all other members, membership does not give you exclusive rights to airspace just because you were there first.

If each member was so equal,
then the racetrack guys need to share with, and not impede, the 3D guys

right?
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Old 09-20-2010, 03:41 PM
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Default RE: 3D flying

Ya'll are offering rational suggestions to appease irrational people. I would bet that they don't have any clue what any 3D maneuvers are called, how to define it, etc. They just don't like seeing folks have fun doing things they feel are "unnatural" or "annoying." None of the suggestions here offered to the OP will work with such people.

OP: The only thing to do is what you did before. Take a stand with your rational flying peers and keep voting them down, or better yet, out.
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Old 09-20-2010, 04:28 PM
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Default RE: 3D flying

Erich F has hit the nail square on the head. The only problem I see with the "old farts" is that the "New farts" don't come to meetings and vote! In my club, most, and I did say most, guys at the meetings are the older members. The younger guys always seem to be "too busy" doing other things. It's like the people who complain about the government this and that, but don't vote! Get you and your friends together and go to the meetings. We have a "core" group of older members in my club of about 8-10 of the 20-25 that show up. I'm NOT one of the 8-10 "old farts", but I mix with ALL ages equally, and I often offer advice to younger members like the following.....

I have suggested the following to some of the younger guys in our club and it worked. One would come and propose a rule change which required passing at the next 2 meetings. At those next 2 meetings 20 young guys showed up in mass and passed their suggestion. I have often used and coined the following phrase...."The system works, BUT only if you work the system." Give it a try. If you can't get your younger friends to help, then the "old farts" win, that simple. And considering I am 60, I guess you could say "I'm helping the enemy" , in this case the younger guys......
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Old 09-20-2010, 04:47 PM
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Default RE: 3D flying


Quote:
ORIGINAL: tinner1

Erich F has hit the nail square on the head. The only problem I see with the "old farts" is that the "New farts" don't come to meetings and vote! In my club, most, and I did say most, guys at the meetings are the older members. The younger guys always seem to be "too busy" doing other things. It's like the people who complain about the government this and that, but don't vote! Get you and your friends together and go to the meetings. We have a "core" group of older members in my club of about 8-10 of the 20-25 that show up. I'm NOT one of the 8-10 "old farts", but I mix with ALL ages equally, and I often offer advice to younger members like the following.....
Is that aproximately the same ratio of folks that show up for work days?
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Old 09-20-2010, 04:52 PM
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Quote:
ORIGINAL: KidEpoxy

Is a 'waterfall' performed way up in the sky considered "3D"?
What about a Immelman? Imolen???? Immolmin????[:@]
Funny, funny. My wife is also my caller in IMAC competitions and for the life of her she cannot sayImmelman.She'll call the sequence and when she gets to the Immelman she does the "Imma... immo....." and I say "got it."

Re:Waterfall ........... well,..... it starts up high. Again I think it's the in your face stuff that bothers other folks at the flight line. I'm that way with Helis. I keep lookin away from my plane to see WTH they're doing because they are sometimes right in front of me. I never say anything about it and lately I just give them the flight line.
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Old 09-20-2010, 05:35 PM
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Default RE: 3D flying


Quote:
ORIGINAL: 804


Quote:
ORIGINAL: rcplanenut

If you look at my first post you will see that I have stated my problem. Someone in our club has proposed a rule change to ban/limit 3D flying. This has been tried before in the past at our club. Since there was no definition for 3D it would be difficult to enforce this rule because there would be many different inturpratations of what 3D is( so which one's are right and which one's are wrong). I am trying to get this rule change voted down, just as I did in the past.
My definition of 3D is ''keeping the plane in the air when it is going too slow to keep it in the air''
Really, the standard definition I've always heard and used is flying on a stalled wing.
The most common 3D moves are hover, harrier, rolling harrier, and some spins, and combinations of
all of the above.

If the members are so nit-picky they can't decide what is 3D and what is not,
you guys have more problems than just this.
Good luck.
Dang, 804, you're right and succinct in your definition AFAIK, but............

OP doesn't want a club anti-3D rule. As I understand it what's keeping the club OFs from banning 3D is they don't know how to define it. Ergo, I propose your definition of 3D should be replaced with "flying around in circles."



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Old 09-20-2010, 05:41 PM
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Default RE: 3D flying

Quote:
Is that aproximately the same ratio of folks that show up for work days?
Here's the funny part....a lot of young guys do show up on work days, BUT, that same group of older guys show up too. They as retired and usually have the time to devote exclusively to their favorite pastime. Note that I didn't say they worked a whole lot, just that they showed up. It's sad but true that since they devote a lot of time to our club, they do tend to think they should have more say. I can't say that I disagree with that but as I said before "Work the system". That's why I go to ALL club functions and meetings. I make flying and modeling ONE of my priorities, and if you want to control/have a say in things you have to be there.
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