southern_touch9

My Feedback: (3)

I am a member of the AMA and I think that they provide a wonderful service. However my question is this: Does any other organization offer comparable service (especially insurance)? The way I see it, if AMA is the only one that offers it and you have got to be AMA to fly at most - all organized events then isnt that considered a monopoly? From what I hear, everyone is complaining about the dues going up and the price of this and that, etc. But without competition then AMA can raise the price to whatever they want to. I am by no means dissing AMA b/c I am glad they offer the service they do but maybe someone else should come along and offer the same service to give pilots more options.

Hossfly

Comparable Service?? Not in the way AMA does in all ways. However United Modelers of America, Ltd. offers simple basic One Million Yankee Dollars Primary Liability Insurance for $38 per year. No magazine, no newsletter, just liability insurance for your damages to others. No way to guarantee they could cover their liability to you.
No contest thingies or whatever, but a very simple Safety Code which could, IMO, be a model for AMA, except that would make AMA dues around $100.oo with all the other services.

http://www.unitedmodelers.com/


Check it out for yourself. You have to define your own comparable.

HC UMA #7160

southern_touch9

My Feedback: (3)

thank you for the info. Do you know if this is widely accepted at events?

Hossfly

>>>>
thank you for the info. Do you know if this is widely accepted at events?

mongo

My Feedback: (15)

i agree with hoss on this one, 38 is rather cheep for a mil of primary. and if it keeps the other ins out of the pictiure, then you have an effective double savings.

SAPropbuster

My Feedback: (5)

Just curious, Hoss... Does UMA pay AND AMA or in lieu of AMA.
I understand the 'Primary' part 'n all, but does AMA ALLOW UMA to be the "Primary"? Howz dat work??

Dave Bowles

My Feedback: (7)

I don't believe AMA has any say what so ever what your primary insurance is, Fact is if you don't have any other liability insurance AMA becomes primary.

Does Anybody know what UMAs record on paying claims is so far ? Anybody filed a claim yet ?

J_R

Bob

AMA really does not say anything about homeowners insurance. It says it's coverage is in excess of any other coverage. In other words, the AMA insurance is secondary. The "any other" could be UMA, HO or both as far as the AMA is concerned. Then the AMA insurance kicks in. 'Cept for the landlord and that is another story. I am assuming Horrace did his homework and that wording in the HO and UMA policies make the UMA primary.

JR

SAPropbuster

My Feedback: (5)

Then, if one was more accident prone or daring or....... it would behoove him to get this insurace as well for a measly $30.oo per year?!?!? You think?

Hossfly

>>>>>>>>
Bob says:
Just curious, Hoss... Does UMA pay AND AMA or in lieu of AMA.
I understand the 'Primary' part 'n all, but does AMA ALLOW UMA to be the "Primary"? Howz dat work??"

"Then, if one was more accident prone or daring or....... it would behoove him to get this insurace as well for a measly $30.oo per year?!?!? You think?"

hotrod468

My Feedback: (3)

I to am a member with both insurance company's. First i have been flying for about 20 years. This AMA coverage is minimal and helps the AMA grow stronger not the hobbyist. Yes the AMA does sponsor some cool events but look at the message they send. I would like to know where the license crap came from, is it a license or a insurance policy? I attended a event a short time ago and was asked to present my AMA license not insurance but license. I asked the guy if he would prefer primary or secondary coverage his answer was he needed a license but primary would be better. I laughed and showed both cards and asked him what he had done to get his license to fly a model airplane. He explained he didn't have to do anything but pay the AMA ! If indeed this is a license why is it not a law that you must have it to own or operate a model aircraft. I think it is a ploy to give the illusion of or the false since of security that AMA is a federally recognized to license a model pilot. However the UMA does not use ploys or any other tactics to make you believe you are buying any thing else but insurance. In addition I think the UMA could come up with a magazine subscription for less then the additional 20 dollars AMA charges each year. I fly safe I have both because I feel if it came down to it the AMA won't cover what the UMA will.
The only reason I still hold an AMA policy is because some still don't understand primary coverage not secondary.

Matt Kirsch

My Feedback: (21)

Oh puhleease! It's not a "ploy" to make people think the AMA is a Federal authority that licenses people to fly model airplanes. It's IGNORANCE, plain and simple. This person obviously heard someone call it a license at one time, it stuck in his head, so now he calls it a license.

People use incorrect terms for things all the time. How many times have you heard people refer to GLOW planes as "gas powered?" There are a few big misnomers in everyday society, but darned if I can think of even one right now.

You still hold an AMA membership because you want to participate in AMA events. The primary reason for requiring AMA membership to participate in AMA events is the insurance, of course, and it's pretty simple to see why. How long would you wait in line at the pilot's sign-in table while they checked out each participant's homeowner's policy to make sure it was paid up and covered R/C flying? That's the alternative.

J_R

Pull out your AMA card. Find your number on it. Read what it says under it. The AMA by-laws have authorized issuing licenses back as long as I can remember, which is more than a week or two.

The AMA is not an insurance company and is not authorized to sell insurance. Insurance coverage is part of the AMA membership. The AMA is a fraternal organization. If you read the by-laws you will find the purposes of the AMA clearly stated. NOT among the purposes is selling insurance.

If you go to the 2002 Financial Statement and analyze it, you will find that the cost of Model Aviation accounts for about $7 of your dues. As an IRS 501 (c) 3 educational non-profit organization, the AMA must send you a newsletter. The magazine covers that function. It is doubtful that a newsletter could be produced and sent for less than $7 per year.

The by-laws are in the 2003 Membership Manual on the AMA web site. The financial statement is on the same site in the Member's only section.

Most of the misunderstandings about the AMA come at the club level where you are simply told that you have to have an AMA card to be a member of the club. The clubs take the line of least resistance and do not explain what the AMA is and what it is not.

JR

jonkoppisch

My Feedback: (162)

To be fair. Most clubs require you to have AMA for the insurance coverage. NOT because of the magazine, for ama events or to further model aviation ..... Only because of the Insurance. So you say ama isn't an insurance organization but without the insurance feature of the ama, the ama would dramatically decrease and clubs would not require you to have it!!! EVERYTHING from the clubs point of view revolves around the insurance!!!


Jon

J_R

I don't think there is any question that the AMA has put together a pretty nice package. I would not even argue that the package of insurance that they supply is the center of attention. It's coverage is unduplicated.

Supplying insurance and selling insurance are two different things, however. Reference the insurance almost every employer supplies as part of employment. That does not make the employer an insurance company any more than the AMA is an insurance company. I am sure that some people go to work for companies based on the insurance provided just as some (maybe most) people join the AMA because of the insurance provided.

In order to sell insurance the AMA would have to be certified in virtually ever state to do so. IF it becomes necessary to activate the captive insurance company and actually sell insurance, there will be a substantial number of legal steps taken.

Several clubs that I know of use sanctioned events to substantially defer the cost of dues to the club members. Again, without the insurance package, it would, at least, be more difficult to do.

The fact remains that clubs that are not aware of the full range of AMA services are shorting themselves.

JR

jonkoppisch

My Feedback: (162)

True about going to work for a business for the insurance, although you can work at a business without the insurance. You can not fly at the field without the insurance. This is the primary concern of the clubs. Once again, with out the insurance, I really think that 90% of the membership would not rejoin. Even if the dues, - insurance, were only $40 year. Jon

the troll

Well....Maybe there should be a license for IGNORANCE

J_R

Jon

There are very few absolutes in this hobby. There are MANY fields across the country that are owned by federal, state, or local authorities. Many of these do not require an AMA membership to fly. In spite of that, AMA clubs continue to exist at many those sites. There must be some modelers that perceive value in the AMA other than insurance, or they simply would not belong to those clubs.

JR

jonkoppisch

My Feedback: (162)

I tend to disagree. I think they are worried about the insurance/accident applications and this is the reason that they joined the ama when not required to. I'm not saying the only value is the insurance but the primary reason is the insurance. By the way, there are no clubs around that I've been to on the east coast like this (that don't require ama insurance to fly there).


Jon

J_R

Jon

I don't disagree. I think MOST modelers know an intelligent idea when they see one. The AMA insurance is a good idea for anyone flying models. As I said, there are no absolutes. I am just as sure that SOME of those folks do it because they want to be a part of the AMA, and not just for the insurance.

Of the dozen or so clubs that are relatively close to me, two that I know of do not require an AMA membership to fly. Keep in mind that the landowner's AMA coverage covers the non-AMA members as well. This is NOT true of the individual or club coverage. For details check out the club recharter package on the AMA site.

JR

jonkoppisch

My Feedback: (162)

As I said in the prior post, I disagree. I think that if the ama didn't offer the insurance that it would be a different story. I hope that we can agree that we disagree and let it at that. Thanks, Jon

Borzak

My Feedback: (2)

Problem with the AMA right now is.


1. 99.99% of us will never file an insurance claim against the AMA insurance policy.

2. Another very large percentage will never fly in an AMA sanctioned event like pylon racing, CL-stunt etc... other than an AMA card required Fun Fly - which is 100% for insurance only.

I will say the average person in the AMA will never have any contact with the AMA other than to pay dues and have the insurance coverage. That's why the AMA has the rap of being just an insurance group.


I wish the AMA would do a member poll of what they feel they get out of the AMA and post the results. Or what percentage of AMA members attend an AMA sanctioned event at least once a year (other than a fun fly which has the insurance requirement) - IE something that took the AMA to organise even at a local level.

Put it this way - if your club didn't require your AMA card due to insurance and everyone was magically covered by health insurance/homeowners would you pay your dues to the AMA every year? Not likely.

hotrod468

My Feedback: (3)

As a long time flier and a club member, what truly do you hold the AMA card for? Is it a license, a insurance underwriter, Or even an event organizer? What exactly do they do for the modeler? Here is my problem as a modeler if my plane goes out of control say batt. problem. It hit another modelers truck is it covered by the insurance that you buy with your membership, not if the car insurance will cover it. Meaning increased insurance rates for the driver. Is this what you are paying for reality sucks huh. And if they did happen to cover it would you need a lawyer to figure out if they do. The AMA has so many rules and so many things you need a waiver for its unreal. We all do no what a waiver is right no coverage at all. The UMA on the other hand has simple rules to follow weight limits up to 100lbs for example and is designed for the modeler. The hidden agenda of some AMA sales rep trying to give an illusion of a license to fly a model is asinine. Yes again the AMA does sponser some cool events but how many modelers will buy there membership with out the ploys "very few". I mean for none profit they sure do have the bill for advertising. I feel for the fees we pay to the AMA we should receive more then a Fun-Fly sponsored at the club level for most.

Red Scholefield

My Feedback: (9)

They did. See www.rcbatteryclinic.com/Temp/survey.ppt

The interesting part of this is that the AMA EC agrees with the parts they like and then says the survey was skewed on the parts that they don't.

Red S
AMA 951

Ron S

My Feedback: (2)

Hotrod, if you take out your AMA card and read the back of it, you will find a statement of what the AMA is, by their definition. No where on the card does it say it is a license. Some people at the field may call it that, but then again, I call all brown colored sodas Coke!

UMA might have simple rules for now, but if they were to grow to the current size of the AMA, do you not think prices would increase? What would they be paying for insurance if everyone flew 100 lb models?

I know of no UMA members where I live, nor do I know of any UMA fields by me. UMA evidently answers the need to some flyers, and that's great. Maybe one day I'll join, but right now I certainly do not see the need.

What's hurting the hobby, and costs, are what I consider frivolous lawsuits against AMA, as in a current thread ($1.35M paid to a guy who painfully got whacked in the shins with a CL model). How close to the CL circle was he standing when he got whacked? Was he thinking?