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Local hobby shop want to teach at our field

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Old 07-07-2011, 08:16 AM
  #51
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Quote:
ORIGINAL: loser

If this was mentioned previously I appologize.

My main ''concern'' is the shop owner being described as a ''good beginner'' pilot. Perhaps he is not that well suited yet to be training anobody. Maybe he does not have the calm and instinctive reactions yet to safely and productively train someone. I have seen it several times in my clubs....guys with a few flights under their belts helping out other ''newbies'' to either an early repair job on their plane or learning bad habits or worse yet just giving up. Nothing frustrates me more than watching a student trying to fly a plane that is flying way too fast or has way too much control throw. Just my $0.02.
Well, maybe that is how he is running his commercial venture. The more they break, the more he sells....haha
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Old 07-07-2011, 08:17 AM
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Default RE: Local hobby shop want to teach at our field

yea... but you need to consider the little foam model used and the ability of the LHS owner to make it right if the model does get damaged... Sounds like fun...low risk... and cheap! I don't see many tears...
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Old 07-07-2011, 10:28 AM
  #53
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Default RE: Local hobby shop want to teach at our field

I don't see anything wrong with either. It is a win-win-win for everyone. The modeler gets to get "hands on' experience, the owner of the LHS gets to introduce some wares and possibly sell some planes, and the club may gain some new members. Like I said, it works, and as long as the people who own the property do not have a problem with what many lawyers can always identify as "commercial interests", there are ways to work around it so everyone is covered by laibility insurance.
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Old 07-07-2011, 10:57 AM
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Default RE: Local hobby shop want to teach at our field


Quote:
ORIGINAL: littlecrankshaf


Quote:
ORIGINAL: HoundDog


Right know an AMA membership for persons under 18 1/2 is free. Used to be a wopping $1. Where else can a person $2 milion coverage for FREE.
Our club has a junior membership for $15. $75 after that.


Good info to know! The younger crowd can really use that. Now if we can find something for the older guys.
O'l Gezzes got all the money anyway. If we can't afford the $48 / year we shouldn't be playing with expensive toys. It's mostly about BSing at that age anyway.
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Old 07-07-2011, 11:09 AM
  #55
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ORIGINAL: HoundDog



O'l Gezzes got all the money anyway.
LOL
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Old 07-07-2011, 11:16 AM
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Default RE: Local hobby shop want to teach at our field


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ORIGINAL: HoundDog


Quote:
ORIGINAL: littlecrankshaf


Quote:
ORIGINAL: HoundDog


Right know an AMA membership for persons under 18 1/2 is free. Used to be a wopping $1. Where else can a person $2 milion coverage for FREE.
Our club has a junior membership for $15. $75 after that.


Good info to know! The younger crowd can really use that. Now if we can find something for the older guys.
O'l Gezzes got all the money anyway. If we can't afford the $48 / year we shouldn't be playing with expensive toys. It's mostly about BSing at that age anyway.
Speak for yourself.
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Old 07-07-2011, 11:43 AM
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Default RE: Local hobby shop want to teach at our field

Personally, I would not rely on the skills of a 'good beginner' to teach someone to fly. A person of that level is still learing and subject to making many mistakes. It's almost like the blind leading the blind.
Almost seems to me that the person you are referring to has more of an interest in promoting his hobby shop, or is mainly guided by that concept.

Don't be desperate ... wait for a higher level flyer to volunteer for the position.

I'd want a skilled, advanced level person teaching someone to fly R/C planes.
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Old 07-07-2011, 12:15 PM
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ORIGINAL: Airplanes400

Personally, I would not rely on the skills of a 'good beginner' to teach someone to fly.
If we were talking about a traditional 5 pound .46 engine glow-fuel trainer, I'd agree absolutely. But I think a "good beginner" might be OK (safe) for the plane we're talking about. Given the shop owner's motivation, I think he would not be asking if he didn't think he was qualified to teach on that particular plane.
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Old 07-07-2011, 12:32 PM
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Default RE: Local hobby shop want to teach at our field


Quote:
ORIGINAL: Mike in DC


Quote:
ORIGINAL: Airplanes400

Personally, I would not rely on the skills of a 'good beginner' to teach someone to fly.
If we were talking about a traditional 5 pound .46 engine glow-fuel trainer, I'd agree absolutely. But I think a "good beginner" might be OK (safe) for the plane we're talking about. Given the shop owner's motivation, I think he would not be asking if he didn't think he was qualified to teach on that particular plane.
Put him with a compentent club instructor and you'll know in 10 minutes if he's qualified to instruct beginners or not.
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Old 07-07-2011, 12:32 PM
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Default RE: Local hobby shop want to teach at our field

How sad is it there are rules in place that can keep this great idea from moving forward.

For the OP what has the club and the property owner said? Since they are really the only permission needed.
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Old 07-07-2011, 12:55 PM
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Default RE: Local hobby shop want to teach at our field


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ORIGINAL: KenP

How sad is it there are rules in place that can keep this great idea from moving forward.

For the OP what has the club and the property owner said? Since they are really the only permission needed.

There are no rules I am aware of that prevent this from taking place. There are policies that determine who is potentially financially responsible in the event of an accident,but that is not the same thing as saying it is not allowed.
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Old 07-07-2011, 03:26 PM
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Default RE: Local hobby shop want to teach at our field


Quote:
ORIGINAL: Silent-AV8R


Quote:
ORIGINAL: KenP

How sad is it there are rules in place that can keep this great idea from moving forward.

For the OP what has the club and the property owner said? Since they are really the only permission needed.

There are no rules I am aware of that prevent this from taking place. There are policies that determine who is potentially financially responsible in the event of an accident,but that is not the same thing as saying it is not allowed.
To a lot of people those insurance policies are defacto rules.
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Old 07-07-2011, 03:29 PM
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ORIGINAL: KidEpoxy

Doc
First you establish that it is
"a commercial venture since the LHS owner is in reality trying to establish and grow his business"

then you completely dismiss that proiblem and offer a solution
where folks join(pay) AMA but then have to fly uninsured by mucie because,
as you just pointed out in no unclear terms,
this is in reality a commercial activity not the CasualSomesuch that Hoss gave the details on


If a solution ends up with it being permitted by, but not insured by, AMA...
there is a far easier way to get that result:
Do nothing, just get the local clubs permission to fly there uninsured by AMA
(which is the same as them all joining AMA and taking part in commercial activities)
If The students in Doc's club join the AMA, they are covered by their own insurance no matter the status of the instructor. You could have Goofy Grape on the other end of the buddy box for all it matters. It's very simple and clear how Doc's club managed a perfect solution that would also work for the OP's club.

Does that dissappoint you and LCS?


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Old 07-07-2011, 03:46 PM
  #64
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Default RE: Local hobby shop want to teach at our field

sounds like a win win for the LHS................
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Old 07-07-2011, 03:53 PM
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Default RE: Local hobby shop want to teach at our field

The owner of the hobby shop IMO is doing this for two things only. Promote interest in model aviation and sell more merchandize at his store. Promoting a hobby that he loves and receiving monetary rewards for his efforts is the only way to go. I belonged to three different clubs which were not AMA sanctioned and neither of these clubs had a training program. What they did have were those willing to give there time and advice to all new commers. When I arrived on the West Coast all the clubs were AMA sanctioned and most had a cast structure. Little help and hardly any advice. I ended up going to work for an Aerial Target Company and flew 1/4 to half scale soviet fixed and rotary wing models. If you don't fit into the click most AMA clubs should be avoided. I'm retired now and fly on a dry lake bed with six other individuals. The rest of the fliers who are AMA fly there also but at the other end of the lake bed. We used to fly with them but they went torward a structured AMA format. Another thing they did was to go electric which is something that our small group would never consider.
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Old 07-07-2011, 06:13 PM
  #66
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Default RE: Local hobby shop want to teach at our field

KBob
Quote:
It's very simple and clear how Doc's club managed a perfect solution that would also work for the OP's club.

Does that dissappoint you and LCS?
I am disappointed you found a solution to cover the student
while ignoring the exposure you introduce to the instructer and club,
and consider that a great success for the instructor and club.

Doc said (repeated now) that it is a commercial activity (doing it to sell more merch),
and we know as such the instructor loses AMA brand insurance for it, as does a club allowing that commercial activity.

If you disagree,
please specify if you disagree with Doc saying it is commercial ( / lawyers will show it commercial),
or if you disagree with commercial activities are not AMA insurance covered ( with the Hoss provided AMA exception sheet)

Please continue the brainstorming,
we have yet to see a solution to get this to happen (other than mine)
that dont require bending/ignoring the AMA's commercial exclusion for insurance.

It really is as simple as the club letting the instructor and student use non-AMA insurance
to cover the (as Doc says) commercial activities they do at the club

why is the simple solution so hard for folks to accept

How much insurance does the student have?
Well, if he dont have enough to prevent himself from going broke if he hits something,
aint that HIS problem, not the clubs?

The key is to make it easypeasy to get lots of folks flying at the club,
and then once they get that taste(& learn to fly) they will join up mainstream.
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Old 07-07-2011, 06:57 PM
  #67
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Default RE: Local hobby shop want to teach at our field


Quote:
ORIGINAL: K-Bob




Does that dissappoint you and LCS?


guess I am just old school...Just don't believe in mandating someone else to have insurance to cover himself... I know that is popular now and our current President got elected promising a change with that philosophy...I just don't happen to agree with it... If you do thats fine but I'll take care of my own... I'll buy the insurance products that protect me and never concern myself with what the other guy has...Old school I know but that worked fine IMO.
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Old 07-07-2011, 07:18 PM
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Default RE: Local hobby shop want to teach at our field

Please keep in mind that AMA youth memberships are free and last untill the person turns 18.The future of this hobby rest in these young hands and the instructers that are willing to put there time and efferts.I looks like a no brainer to me.
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Old 07-07-2011, 07:28 PM
  #69
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Default RE: Local hobby shop want to teach at our field

[size=2]I wanted to qoute someone but instead I think I will start from scratch.

I do not want to pick on any one post or person, but some of the things said here make me see red!

I own a hobby shop in NJ and been in the hobby for many years on and off since the early 70's. I have won gift cert and mentions from the AMA for membership drives and promoting the Hobby. (for which I do not receive a penny). It frost my cookies when I see hobby guys blast a store as trying to make a profit off a club.

As a HOBBY SHOP owner and a current CLUB PRESIDENT I work both sides of this debate. As a club president(we have 60 members) it is very hard to recruit
good flight instructors that can even give 1 or 2 afternoons a month. They stand people up, forget appointments etc. The customers , aka club members, call my store to complain because I
suggested they join a club. I recommend 4 different clubs within the area of my store. The cost is 58.00 for AMA and 30 to 110.00 to join the clubs. I talk them into this and feel bad for them when the club members will not step up and help. I myself do not have the time to help people at the field. I also think it opens a can of worms. If I help them and something happens like a crash, they think I should fix or replace the equipment no matter whos fault it is. Just not a good way to go.

As far as doing this to make a 'Living" and making money from selling hobby stuff to people, what a JOKE. If any of you think that the shop owner is doing this for the money, he would be better of pan handling in the street. If he is offering to help these people I assure you it is not for the 30 to 40 dollars you make selling a foam trainer to a customer and than spending an hour showing them how too use it and then shlepping to the local club to teach them how to fly with it..........WOW big money there!!!!!!!!!!!

I have been in retail for a long time (non Hobby) the only reason anyone would open a hooby shop is because of a love of the hobby. It is not a good business model at all. There is no margin in the product and very hard to stay open. If an owner is tryinig to get people flying it is because he wants to share a great hobby with other people. You make money in this industry with web sales and high volume, not one on one good quality customer service. HOO RAY for him for trying to promote the hobby. The club should embrace this and run with it.

More than 80 % of my customers do not, or will not join a club. Some due to bad past experiences with a club. They tend to be very clickish in our area.

Hobby shop name withheld-I wouldn't want to be accused of looking for free exposure on RCU.........

One man's opinion.
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Old 07-07-2011, 07:42 PM
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Default RE: Local hobby shop want to teach at our field

Quote:
ORIGINAL: harleydoberman

[size=2]I wanted to qoute someone but instead I think I will start from scratch.

I do not want to pick on any one post or person, but some of the things said here make me see red!

I own a hobby shop in NJ and been in the hobby for many years on and off since the early 70's. I have won gift cert and mentions from the AMA for membership drives and promoting the Hobby. (for which I do not receive a penny). It frost my cookies when I see hobby guys blast a store as trying to make a profit off a club.

As a HOBBY SHOP owner and a current CLUB PRESIDENT I work both sides of this debate. As a club president(we have 60 members) it is very hard to recruit
good flight instructors that can even give 1 or 2 afternoons a month. They stand people up, forget appointments etc. The customers , aka club members, call my store to complain because I
suggested they join a club. I recommend 4 different clubs within the area of my store. The cost is 58.00 for AMA and 30 to 110.00 to join the clubs. I talk them into this and feel bad for them when the club members will not step up and help. I myself do not have the time to help people at the field. I also think it opens a can of worms. If I help them and something happens like a crash, they think I should fix or replace the equipment no matter whos fault it is. Just not a good way to go.

As far as doing this to make a 'Living'' and making money from selling hobby stuff to people, what a JOKE. If any of you think that the shop owner is doing this for the money, he would be better of pan handling in the street. If he is offering to help these people I assure you it is not for the 30 to 40 dollars you make selling a foam trainer to a customer and than spending an hour showing them how too use it and then shlepping to the local club to teach them how to fly with it..........WOW big money there!!!!!!!!!!!

I have been in retail for a long time (non Hobby) the only reason anyone would open a hooby shop is because of a love of the hobby. It is not a good business model at all. There is no margin in the product and very hard to stay open. If an owner is tryinig to get people flying it is because he wants to share a great hobby with other people. You make money in this industry with web sales and high volume, not one on one good quality customer service. HOO RAY for him for trying to promote the hobby. The club should embrace this and run with it.

More than 80 % of my customers do not, or will not join a club. Some due to bad past experiences with a club. They tend to be very clickish in our area.

Hobby shop name withheld-I wouldn't want to be accused of looking for free exposure on RCU.........

One man's opinion.
Wow... Great post!

Tell it like it really is...

We have a hobby shop owner in this town that is very much the same. He endlessly helps all the modelers here any way he can. There should be a special hall of fame for guys like you and him. Not sure why most others can't see that... but suspect most only consider how things might affect them...however miniscule. Gets down right depressing sometimes... the biggest problem with the hobby's growth I see is the downright selfishness of some...

Now, I know you don't hear it much...thank you!
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Old 07-07-2011, 09:18 PM
  #71
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Default RE: Local hobby shop want to teach at our field

AMA needs to have a umbrella coverage for the instructer and student.remember Sport Flyers they had that,the student was covered as long as he was under the instructer.i soloed more than 45 + students.If you can get coverage for a full scale aircraft to teach in why not RC? I have not lost a plane until after a student has soloed and they would fly my plane until they finished building their plane.yes,the plane was beat up but flew great.I do not belong to a club because i can buy a new plane every year for the cost of club dues. bill
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Old 07-08-2011, 04:57 AM
  #72
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Default RE: Local hobby shop want to teach at our field

OOOpppsss.....sorry....I missed the part stating what type of plane was being used before I posted my comments above. Just assumed it was a "conventional .40 sized glow trainer"....showing my age I guess...lol. I would much rather train someone on a .40 to .60 size glow plane than a small electric foamy...just me...
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Old 07-08-2011, 06:04 AM
  #73
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Default RE: Local hobby shop want to teach at our field

Quote:
Somebody willing to do anything positive for the hobby should be given as much support as possible.
Sounds like a win for the club and a win for the hobby. Keep a bit of an eye on him the first few times to make sure he does have enough skills to get people started. That's the hardest part in this hobby. Don't worry too much if he teaches the odd bad habit or two (within reason), finding people willing to help teach others to fly is such a gem, go for it!
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Old 07-10-2011, 05:23 AM
  #74
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Default RE: Local hobby shop want to teach at our field


Quote:
ORIGINAL: DocYates

I don't see anything wrong with either. It is a win-win-win for everyone. The modeler gets to get ''hands on' experience, the owner of the LHS gets to introduce some wares and possibly sell some planes, and the club may gain some new members. Like I said, it works, and as long as the people who own the property do not have a problem with what many lawyers can always identify as ''commercial interests'', there are ways to work around it so everyone is covered by laibility insurance.
I agree with Doc's feelings here. The public field here is non AMA for two or three hours per month by agreement with the county.
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Old 07-10-2011, 06:32 AM
  #75
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Default RE: Local hobby shop want to teach at our field

Thanks all for your replies. As noted there are two fields involved with diffeent responsibilities and management. One is a county park managed by an AMA chartered group. The other is on private land and managed by the club. The management from both sites and the LHS owner met and decided to allow the store owner to use either field as long as he complies with the introductory pilot program. We also suggested that he use the private land site as it was more open and better for new pilots. We talked about other items such as follow on training with the clubs .40 size trainer and instructors.

Thanks all for your contributions to this thread.
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