Local hobby shop want to teach at our field
07-06-2011, 06:40 AM
#1
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Local hobby shop want to teach at our field
The owner of a local hobby shop has asked if he can teach customers to fly at our AMA fields. Here is what he asked...
Over the years I have had several people coming into the store asking about local flying clubs and expressing their desire to learn how to fly rc airplanes. With the club’s permission, would it be possible for me to teach customers how to fly rc airplanes at the flying fields? What I am proposing is to inform my customers that I will be at ********** every Saturday and at ******** and that they can come out from 4 – 5 pm to buddy-boxed with me flying the Flyzone foamie j-3 cub. Please advise what I need to do. Thanks.
The owner just joined our club a month ago though he was a past member. I would rate his flying skills at a good beginer.
Any opinions? Any official worries that the AMA rules would have?
Over the years I have had several people coming into the store asking about local flying clubs and expressing their desire to learn how to fly rc airplanes. With the club’s permission, would it be possible for me to teach customers how to fly rc airplanes at the flying fields? What I am proposing is to inform my customers that I will be at ********** every Saturday and at ******** and that they can come out from 4 – 5 pm to buddy-boxed with me flying the Flyzone foamie j-3 cub. Please advise what I need to do. Thanks.
The owner just joined our club a month ago though he was a past member. I would rate his flying skills at a good beginer.
Any opinions? Any official worries that the AMA rules would have?
07-06-2011, 06:50 AM
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RE: Local hobby shop want to teach at our field
If he would like to follow the guide lines of the AMA, please check out this document. http://www.modelaircraft.org/files/921.pdf http://www.modelaircraft.org/files/917.pdf
07-06-2011, 06:51 AM
#3
RE: Local hobby shop want to teach at our field
personally, i would not have a problem with it. now, the official line, that may be somewhat harder to get a definite stance on that allows the activity as described.
anyway, good luck.
hope yall manage to teach lots to fly.
anyway, good luck.
hope yall manage to teach lots to fly.
07-06-2011, 06:56 AM
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RE: Local hobby shop want to teach at our field
ORIGINAL: evan-RCU
The owner of a local hobby shop has asked if he can teach customers to fly at our AMA fields. Here is what he asked...
Over the years I have had several people coming into the store asking about local flying clubs and expressing their desire to learn how to fly rc airplanes. With the club’s permission, would it be possible for me to teach customers how to fly rc airplanes at the flying fields? What I am proposing is to inform my customers that I will be at ********** every Saturday and at ******** and that they can come out from 4 – 5 pm to buddy-boxed with me flying the Flyzone foamie j-3 cub. Please advise what I need to do. Thanks.
The owner just joined our club a month ago though he was a past member. I would rate his flying skills at a good beginer.
Any opinions? Any official worries that the AMA rules would have?
The owner of a local hobby shop has asked if he can teach customers to fly at our AMA fields. Here is what he asked...
Over the years I have had several people coming into the store asking about local flying clubs and expressing their desire to learn how to fly rc airplanes. With the club’s permission, would it be possible for me to teach customers how to fly rc airplanes at the flying fields? What I am proposing is to inform my customers that I will be at ********** every Saturday and at ******** and that they can come out from 4 – 5 pm to buddy-boxed with me flying the Flyzone foamie j-3 cub. Please advise what I need to do. Thanks.
The owner just joined our club a month ago though he was a past member. I would rate his flying skills at a good beginer.
Any opinions? Any official worries that the AMA rules would have?
Unfortunately, according to AMA rules, other than the one and only initial flight given to non-AMA students, using only the AMA's PIC (pilot in control) model and equipment, the AMA PIC should be an official "intro pilot" to instruct non-AMA students.
To be an intro pilot he must pay his five dollars and have club support...
07-06-2011, 07:39 AM
#5
Thread Starter
RE: Local hobby shop want to teach at our field
Thanks all, as a club we do not have to do the official AMA intro program. But I guess we should set up something similar. I think the best thing is to say to him to send anyone interested to us and we will do introductory training with our existing club trainer and instructors.
07-06-2011, 07:51 AM
#6
RE: Local hobby shop want to teach at our field
I belive the case would be that if all the students are AMA members there should be no problem. However those who have not yet joined
the AMA would be limited on how many times they could fly.
the AMA would be limited on how many times they could fly.
07-06-2011, 08:04 AM
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RE: Local hobby shop want to teach at our field
ORIGINAL: ira d
I belive the case would be that if all the students are AMA members there should be no problem. However those who have not yet joined
the AMA would be limited on how many times they could fly.
I belive the case would be that if all the students are AMA members there should be no problem. However those who have not yet joined
the AMA would be limited on how many times they could fly.
AMA's intro pilot program is the best tool available to us as AMA members, that is officially recognized, for allowing the newly interested an insight to what this hobby has to offer.
As members of the "Academy" thats as good as it gets.
07-06-2011, 08:08 AM
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RE: Local hobby shop want to teach at our field
It should be understood that the above suggestions
are about how to get/keep AMA insurance going for the activity.
Another very simple way to have the club and hobby shop do this,
is that the club just lets the hobby shop do it
and simply rely on non-AMA brand insurance
or even have no club-initiated (aka not Muncie mandated) insurance requirement
note:
If there is a landowner insurance requirement,
perhaps the 1-Time-Only-Buddybox deal is not suitable
are about how to get/keep AMA insurance going for the activity.
Another very simple way to have the club and hobby shop do this,
is that the club just lets the hobby shop do it
and simply rely on non-AMA brand insurance
or even have no club-initiated (aka not Muncie mandated) insurance requirement
note:
If there is a landowner insurance requirement,
perhaps the 1-Time-Only-Buddybox deal is not suitable
07-06-2011, 10:33 AM
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RE: Local hobby shop want to teach at our field
I think the official line is that the trainees have to be AMA members. If they join the AMA, then it would be up to your club rules as to whether the trainees have to be club members. If you get past those, then, assuming the hobby shop owner is not charging for the training, then I don't see how that's any different then any other club member training somebody on the buddy box. Unfortunately, a lot of the rules are based in the past, on the idea of a .40 size gas trainer. The Cub could injure somebody in a freak accident, but the chances are tiny compared to the traditional trainer.
If he wants to charge for training, that's a different story, and you'd have to make sure his business liability insurance would be the primary insurance. In that case, I think it would be to the clubs benefit to allow it (with no charge), since it could bring in future members.
If he wants to charge for training, that's a different story, and you'd have to make sure his business liability insurance would be the primary insurance. In that case, I think it would be to the clubs benefit to allow it (with no charge), since it could bring in future members.
07-06-2011, 10:51 AM
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RE: Local hobby shop want to teach at our field
If he wants to charge for training, that's a different story, and you'd have to make sure his business liability insurance would be the primary insurance. In that case, I think it would be to the clubs benefit to allow it (with no charge), since it could bring in future members.
Something to do with it done on a casual basis or somesuch
... like a commercial toy seller that casually offers a bit of training on what he sells [8D]
07-06-2011, 12:42 PM
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RE: Local hobby shop want to teach at our field
ORIGINAL: KidEpoxy
Isnt paid flight instruction a specific exclusion to the No Commercial ama (insurance)rule?
Something to do with it done on a casual basis or somesuch
... like a commercial toy seller that casually offers a bit of training on what he sells [8D]
If he wants to charge for training, that's a different story, and you'd have to make sure his business liability insurance would be the primary insurance. In that case, I think it would be to the clubs benefit to allow it (with no charge), since it could bring in future members.
Something to do with it done on a casual basis or somesuch
... like a commercial toy seller that casually offers a bit of training on what he sells [8D]
07-06-2011, 12:56 PM
#12
RE: Local hobby shop want to teach at our field
Liability Insurance Protection Program
For Paid Instructors
(February 7, 2004)
AMA recognizes that the number of volunteer flight instructors is limited. We also realize that,
generally, “club training nights†are limited to once or twice per week. While we believe that the
traditional form of teaching a new modeler to fly as a benefit of joining a club is an important aspect of
the Academy and our system of chartered clubs, we also appreciate the fact that there are times when a
club’s training program may not fit into the schedule of some new modelers. Many of those new to
model aviation have limited and specific times in which they can enjoy their new hobby. Some want to
advance their skills more quickly or be trained at their convenience. They are willing to pay a
reasonable fee for this.
To ease the burden on our volunteer instructors AMA sees a place for those that instruct for a fee. In
fact, there are several, full-time, commercial RC Flight Schools operating very successfully in the
United States, which are not insured by the AMA’s liability insurance company.
AMA has developed a program, outlined below, to provide “paid instructors†with liability insurance
protection.
1. As a benefit of membership, AMA’s insurance protection will extend to those members
who provide flight instruction for a fee on a casual basis.
2. This coverage does not extend to any commercial operation or business pursuit.
3. The coverage only applies when an AMA member is instructing another AMA member.
4. The coverage only applies when the instruction is being provided at a recognized model
flying facility or during an AMA chartered club's previously planned and advertised
"official" event.
5. Clubs reserve the right to either allow or disallow the use of their facilities to a paid flight
instructor while providing instruction for a fee.
6. Clubs reserve the right to charge a fee for the use of their facilities to a paid instructor
member when instructing for a fee. All agreements pertaining to these fees will be a
matter strictly between the club and instructor.
7. AMA will provide, on the AMA Website in the Members Only section, a searchable
database of all members who wish to be identified as flight instructors. This database will
include both volunteer instructors and those that charge a fee. Inclusion in this database
is on a voluntary basis. It is the instructor’s responsibility to insure that his or her name is
listed and that the information in that listing is accurate. The database will include the
instructor’s name, address, telephone number, email address, and club affiliation. There
will be an indictor next to the names of those instructors that charge a fee.
8. AMA assumes no responsibility and makes no assertions as to the competency of any
instructor listed in this database.
Anyone wish just who initiated and who worked in committee with then DVP Mathewson to get the AMA to accept this?
If that doesn't work then go with the Introductory Pilot Program. You can check that one out on your own.
For Paid Instructors
(February 7, 2004)
AMA recognizes that the number of volunteer flight instructors is limited. We also realize that,
generally, “club training nights†are limited to once or twice per week. While we believe that the
traditional form of teaching a new modeler to fly as a benefit of joining a club is an important aspect of
the Academy and our system of chartered clubs, we also appreciate the fact that there are times when a
club’s training program may not fit into the schedule of some new modelers. Many of those new to
model aviation have limited and specific times in which they can enjoy their new hobby. Some want to
advance their skills more quickly or be trained at their convenience. They are willing to pay a
reasonable fee for this.
To ease the burden on our volunteer instructors AMA sees a place for those that instruct for a fee. In
fact, there are several, full-time, commercial RC Flight Schools operating very successfully in the
United States, which are not insured by the AMA’s liability insurance company.
AMA has developed a program, outlined below, to provide “paid instructors†with liability insurance
protection.
1. As a benefit of membership, AMA’s insurance protection will extend to those members
who provide flight instruction for a fee on a casual basis.
2. This coverage does not extend to any commercial operation or business pursuit.
3. The coverage only applies when an AMA member is instructing another AMA member.
4. The coverage only applies when the instruction is being provided at a recognized model
flying facility or during an AMA chartered club's previously planned and advertised
"official" event.
5. Clubs reserve the right to either allow or disallow the use of their facilities to a paid flight
instructor while providing instruction for a fee.
6. Clubs reserve the right to charge a fee for the use of their facilities to a paid instructor
member when instructing for a fee. All agreements pertaining to these fees will be a
matter strictly between the club and instructor.
7. AMA will provide, on the AMA Website in the Members Only section, a searchable
database of all members who wish to be identified as flight instructors. This database will
include both volunteer instructors and those that charge a fee. Inclusion in this database
is on a voluntary basis. It is the instructor’s responsibility to insure that his or her name is
listed and that the information in that listing is accurate. The database will include the
instructor’s name, address, telephone number, email address, and club affiliation. There
will be an indictor next to the names of those instructors that charge a fee.
8. AMA assumes no responsibility and makes no assertions as to the competency of any
instructor listed in this database.
Anyone wish just who initiated and who worked in committee with then DVP Mathewson to get the AMA to accept this?
If that doesn't work then go with the Introductory Pilot Program. You can check that one out on your own.
07-06-2011, 01:36 PM
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RE: Local hobby shop want to teach at our field
1. As a benefit of membership, AMA’s insurance protection will extend to those members
who provide flight instruction for a fee on a casual basis.
2. This coverage does not extend to any commercial operation or business pursuit.
3. The coverage only applies when an AMA member is instructing another AMA member.
who provide flight instruction for a fee on a casual basis.
2. This coverage does not extend to any commercial operation or business pursuit.
3. The coverage only applies when an AMA member is instructing another AMA member.
And the club is not required to allow it and may charge him for the use of the field.
Now the interesting thing is that it is not clear if he plans to charge for the instruction. But it seems to me that since he is doing it as part of his business that makes it a commercial concern and not covered under any of the AMA programs or policies.
07-06-2011, 01:41 PM
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RE: Local hobby shop want to teach at our field
ORIGINAL: Silent-AV8R
But it seems to me that since he is doing it as part of his business that makes it a commercial concern and not covered under any of the AMA programs or policies.
But it seems to me that since he is doing it as part of his business that makes it a commercial concern and not covered under any of the AMA programs or policies.
07-06-2011, 04:07 PM
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RE: Local hobby shop want to teach at our field
Hoss
Thanx for the straight scoop on the exemption.
Looks like I missed a couple details of the 'a casual basis or somesuch'
and the devil is always n the details, aint it
Thanx for the straight scoop on the exemption.
Looks like I missed a couple details of the 'a casual basis or somesuch'
and the devil is always n the details, aint it
07-06-2011, 04:45 PM
#17
RE: Local hobby shop want to teach at our field
I'm sure the hobby shop owner has insurance that would, or could easily be made to cover his business related activities to any reasonable limit considering the type of aircraft used for instruction.
I'm of the opinion that the potential benefit to the club, new members, far out weigh the potential liability of a small electric plane creating catastrophic damage to anyone or anything.
I'm of the opinion that the potential benefit to the club, new members, far out weigh the potential liability of a small electric plane creating catastrophic damage to anyone or anything.
07-06-2011, 04:48 PM
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RE: Local hobby shop want to teach at our field
ORIGINAL: KidEpoxy
Hoss
Thanx for the straight scoop on the exemption.
Looks like I missed a couple details of the 'a casual basis or somesuch'
and the devil is always n the details, aint it
Hoss
Thanx for the straight scoop on the exemption.
Looks like I missed a couple details of the 'a casual basis or somesuch'
and the devil is always n the details, aint it
OP specifically mentioned he wanted to get newbies on the buddy-box. I'd venture that AMA's 'once per lifetime' buddy box flight rule is the most ignored rule they have pushed on us. Most of us feel the PIC is always the PIC, whomever or whatever (say a stool, or a hamster) is holding a buddy box that may happen to be tethered to his transmitter.
"Good men must not obey the laws too well..." - Ralph Waldo Emerson
As LCS pointed out, the LHS owner seems like a good man, so obedience to rarely enforced AMA rules shouldn't be pushed too well on him.
07-06-2011, 05:06 PM
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RE: Local hobby shop want to teach at our field
ORIGINAL: littlecrankshaf
Hmmm...It seems to me, not knowing anymore than presented, just a great guy trying to promote the hobby. Absurdly ridiculous to think giving of that kind of time and energy is the bases for financial gains. Astounding someone would think otherwise IMO.
ORIGINAL: Silent-AV8R
But it seems to me that since he is doing it as part of his business that makes it a commercial concern and not covered under any of the AMA programs or policies.
But it seems to me that since he is doing it as part of his business that makes it a commercial concern and not covered under any of the AMA programs or policies.
Yes I am sure he operates the shop and wants to expand his customer base for the purely altruistic reason of helping the hobby.
But nothing I wrote was a negative, simply declarative. He is engaged in a business interest. That is a good thing, for him, his family and the hobby. I think the club should allow it and help if they can. I would also suggest that they make sure he is insured for doing so in case one of his customers is hurt or damages property. Because the AMA is not going to cover it if I am reading things correctly. But by all means he should be encouraged to do it.
07-06-2011, 05:10 PM
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RE: Local hobby shop want to teach at our field
ORIGINAL: cj_rumley
As LCS pointed out, the LHS owner seems like a good man, so obedience to rarely enforced AMA rules shouldn't be pushed too well on him.
As LCS pointed out, the LHS owner seems like a good man, so obedience to rarely enforced AMA rules shouldn't be pushed too well on him.
07-06-2011, 05:25 PM
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RE: Local hobby shop want to teach at our field
ORIGINAL: Silent-AV8R
It has everything to do with making sure he is protected and the club is protected in the case of an accident. Even something as benign as one of the children of his student tripping and hurting themselves. I am sure that the customer would just say, ''Hey, that's OK''. I mean, we NEVER hear of people being sued or anything like that. We all carry liability insurance just because we feel bad for the poor insurance companies and want to make sure they stay in business.
It has everything to do with making sure he is protected and the club is protected in the case of an accident. Even something as benign as one of the children of his student tripping and hurting themselves. I am sure that the customer would just say, ''Hey, that's OK''. I mean, we NEVER hear of people being sued or anything like that. We all carry liability insurance just because we feel bad for the poor insurance companies and want to make sure they stay in business.
And the hypothetical you present would still give the club insurance against any liability of trip and fall...Has happened before.
07-06-2011, 05:59 PM
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RE: Local hobby shop want to teach at our field
ORIGINAL: Silent-AV8R
I am sure that you will happily step up to the plate to support him should anything bad happen then, right? It has got nothing to do with AMA rules, which I know you deplore.
ORIGINAL: cj_rumley
As LCS pointed out, the LHS owner seems like a good man, so obedience to rarely enforced AMA rules shouldn't be pushed too well on him.
As LCS pointed out, the LHS owner seems like a good man, so obedience to rarely enforced AMA rules shouldn't be pushed too well on him.
It has everything to do with making sure he is protected and the club is protected in the case of an accident. Even something as benign as one of the children of his student tripping and hurting themselves. I am sure that the customer would just say, ''Hey, that's OK''. I mean, we NEVER hear of people being sued or anything like that. We all carry liability insurance just because we feel bad for the poor insurance companies and want to make sure they stay in business.
If you have a point, make it. Cite one example from the 75 year history of AMA where a non-member created an uncovered liability situation for himself, his instructor, the club or anyone else while using a buddy box for a training flight in violation of AMA's one-time-only condition.
07-06-2011, 06:13 PM
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RE: Local hobby shop want to teach at our field
A trip and fall by student's family member is no different from any other spectator wrt club liability insurance.
dont you remember the petard-foisting that happened to the last spectator that was hit by a rc plane
speaking of which,
should all them folks that waved the AssumedRisk banner last time
be here saying the same they said then,
or is the AssumedRisk card only played against folks they dont like
Its up to the club
if they want to allow sales demos or flight instruction or whatever other non-AMA-insured commercial activities.
Ms Maine at Muncie summed that up nicely.
Heck, just call it a demo flight retro-applied to the sale