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Does this mean no maidens @ Sanctioned Event?

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Old 07-27-2011, 04:27 PM
  #51
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Default RE: Does this mean no maidens @ Sanctioned Event?

Perhaps it is time we put our collective heads toghether and propose a change to the rule
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Old 07-27-2011, 04:28 PM
  #52
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Default RE: Does this mean no maidens @ Sanctioned Event?


Quote:
ORIGINAL: jrb1

.......

One idea might be allowing a set time within a sanctioned event for test flights including maidens say at during lunch?

Then folks who’ve made a repair, a set-up change, or someone that bought a BNF from vendor at the event could all be in compliance.
Easy for a CD to do...publish the event hours in the sanction document as 8AM-12PM and 1PM-5PM. Allow maidens before 8, during the lunch hour and after hours.
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Old 07-27-2011, 04:35 PM
  #53
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Default RE: Does this mean no maidens @ Sanctioned Event?

Good info.

Maybe a better solution would to just have an official "maiden" slot for those guys...still would allow the spectacular crashes that everyone seems to enjoy Sorry, just couldn't resist... but then again NASCAR owes its whole existence on crashes.
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Old 08-04-2011, 09:11 AM
  #54
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Default RE: Does this mean no maidens @ Sanctioned Event?

Guys the rule is there more to protect AMA's butt then anything else. Without it the insurance rates would skyrocket. Upon a crash at an event the lawyers working for the AMA's insurance will be scouring the evidence to get out of being liable and push it back on the pilot, club, land owner or whoever else they can.

So should you maiden at an event? How big is your personal liability insurance coverage? We take risks with everything we do in this hobby. I for one would rather not give any lawyers more ammunition.
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Old 08-04-2011, 02:37 PM
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Default RE: Does this mean no maidens @ Sanctioned Event?


Quote:
ORIGINAL: Vintauri

Guys the rule is there more to protect AMA's butt then anything else. Without it the insurance rates would skyrocket. Upon a crash at an event the lawyers working for the AMA's insurance will be scouring the evidence to get out of being liable and push it back on the pilot, club, land owner or whoever else they can.

So should you maiden at an event? How big is your personal liability insurance coverage? We take risks with everything we do in this hobby. I for one would rather not give any lawyers more ammunition.
You could be right. CYA is the order of the day.
But, I'd sure like to see some documented stats ( that I'm sure don't exist) that proves maiden flights are any more risky than a 6th, 60th, or 600th flight.
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Old 08-04-2011, 04:13 PM
  #56
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Default RE: Does this mean no maidens @ Sanctioned Event?


Quote:
ORIGINAL: 804




But, I'd sure like to see some documented stats ( that I'm sure don't exist) that proves maiden flights are any more risky than a 6th, 60th, or 600th flight.

Really good point. I have seen things come loose, like servo arms, after the sixth flight... maybe we should just quit flying models altogether.
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Old 08-04-2011, 07:35 PM
  #57
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Default RE: Does this mean no maidens @ Sanctioned Event?

I agree, I've been a CD for over 40 Years. In the Club Events, Fun Flys, Burger Burns, or whatever, we all know who has the New Plane that needs to be TEST FLOWN, and it is enforced by everyone.

In our AMA Sanctioned Events, Maiden's are NOT allowed to Fly in the contest. Every Model MUST have FLOWN at Least SIX (6) Flights prior to the contest. (We ASK the contestant how many flights are on the entry model) Every model will be subjected to a through Safety Inspection before their first flight at the contest and after any repairs performed due to a minor crash.

New models need to be TEST FLOWN either Before a contest or after the contest has ended. Arrangements can always be made with the CD and most modelers are willing to help during a check-out flight. BUT, don't expect to enter our AMA Sanctioned events with only ONE (1) test flight on the books.

Due to SAFETY Reasons, At our field we let everyone know if it's a maiden flight. New Model, New Radio, New Engine, Rebuild test, or Whatever before we fly.

If you are a modeler and you have been in this hobby for a while, maybe you can remember having to Duck and Cover, or do the RC Two Step due to a Maiden flight that wasn't announced.

Accidents will happen.

Ken AMA 1528


Quote:
ORIGINAL: DadsToysBG

I'm a CD. This is what I do. New plane, fly before the event starts. Talk to me, if you want to fly at 8am I'll start the event at 9. fly the plane when the event is over. If I call it at 5 fly at 5:15. If you sign the waiver and the plane is new and it hurts someone, I'm sending your name to the AMA with the accident report. A sanctioned event is a AMA event not a club event. The CD is responsible to the AMA and to the guests and pilots.
I never walk off the grounds during the event hours and any CD that does to allow a new plane to be tested should not be a CD. And it is a big safety issue. You just don't know what a new plane will do. Tail weight, nose weight, trim, engine.
We're having a giant scale event this week-end. I know of five people showing up tonight (Thursday) to test fly new planes. A couple want to test fly Friday morning early. If their not done I will hold off on starting because I want everybody to have fun.
We are fly anything from 20 to 50lbs. Do you really think i want a unproven plane in the air with 4 others and a crowd of guests.
Dennis
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Old 08-04-2011, 07:53 PM
  #58
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Default RE: Does this mean no maidens @ Sanctioned Event?


Quote:
ORIGINAL: Ken Kehlet

I agree, I've been a CD for over 40 Years. In the Club Events, Fun Flys, Burger Burns, or whatever, we all know who has the New Plane that needs to be TEST FLOWN, and it is enforced by everyone.

In our AMA Sanctioned Events, Maiden's are NOT allowed to Fly in the contest. Every Model MUST have FLOWN at Least SIX (6) Flights prior to the contest. (We ASK the contestant how many flights are on the entry model) Every model will be subjected to a through Safety Inspection before their first flight at the contest and after any repairs performed due to a minor crash. New models need to be TEST FLOWN either Before a contest or after the contest has ended. Arrangements can always be made with the CD and most modelers are willing to help during a check-out flight. BUT, don't expect to enter our AMA Sanctioned events with only ONE (1) test flight on the books.

Due to SAFETY Reasons, At our field we let everyone know if it's a maiden flight. New Model, New Radio, New Engine, Rebuild test, or Whatever before we fly.

If you are a modeler and you have been in this hobby for a while, maybe you can remember having to Duck and Cover, or do the RC Two Step due to a Maiden flight that wasn't announced.

Accidents will happen.

Ken AMA 1528

I think you might have pasted some part of that in from another post.

To make things clear, there is no AMA requirement for 6 flights on a model before an event. That was mentioned earlier in a post from an IMAA person, who states that is their requirement. I cannot confirm the exact IMAA rule, as I a not a member of the IMAA.
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Old 08-04-2011, 08:00 PM
  #59
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Default RE: Does this mean no maidens @ Sanctioned Event?

I went and reread the safety code in relation to first flights....looks like the wording has changed since I last reviewed it.....and I think it changed from the change a couple of years ago:

3. Model aircraft will not be flown in AMA sanctioned events, air shows or model demonstrations unless:
(a) The aircraft, control system and pilot skills have successfully demonstrated all maneuvers intended or anticipated prior to the specific event.
(b) An inexperienced pilot is assisted by an experienced pilot.


Interesting revision. No longer enough to get a flight in on a new model before an event. you are certifying that you are capable of doing safely any thing you try to do with the model during the event and that anything you do has been done with the model before.

The part about inexperienced folks getting help from an experienced pilot is fairly new, as well. The wording leaves that part open for interpretation...help via buddy box, help via the more expereinced guy being his spotter, the better pilot serving as the pilot, or?

The AMA does like to tweak things in the rules without doing a great job on getting the word out on the changes.

I found a copy of a previous AMA safety code from 2009 and here is the old wording on this topic in the Safety Code:

4. I will not fly my model aircraft in sanctioned events, air shows, or model demonstrations until it has been proven airworthy


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Old 08-04-2011, 08:15 PM
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Default RE: Does this mean no maidens @ Sanctioned Event?


I did NOT say it was an AMA Requirement for 6 flights. READ again.

In our AMA Sanctioned Events, Maiden's are NOT allowed to Fly in the contest. Every Model MUST have FLOWN at Least SIX (6) Flights prior to the contest. (We ASK the contestant how many flights are on the entry model)

Our field, OUR Rules.

Ken AMA 1528
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Old 08-04-2011, 08:26 PM
  #61
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Default RE: Does this mean no maidens @ Sanctioned Event?

Quote:
ORIGINAL: Ken Kehlet


I did NOT say it was an AMA Requirement for 6 flights. READ again.

In our AMA Sanctioned Events, Maiden's are NOT allowed to Fly in the contest. Every Model MUST have FLOWN at Least SIX (6) Flights prior to the contest. (We ASK the contestant how many flights are on the entry model)

Our field, OUR Rules.

Ken AMA 1528

Just out of curiosity, how many contests does your club have a year? We struggle to get enough participation to justify one to two a year. I doubt anyone thinks much beyond the basic AMA requirements, let alone coming up with more stringent rules. Just curious.

Kurt
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Old 08-05-2011, 06:17 AM
  #62
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Default RE: Does this mean no maidens @ Sanctioned Event?

I'd rather be present when a new plane with new equipment and zero flights is flown then when old Herb pulls out the P51 from back in the day with s148s all around, a FM reciever with some of the antennae left, 600 flights and cracked CA hinges.
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Old 08-05-2011, 08:08 AM
  #63
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Default RE: Does this mean no maidens @ Sanctioned Event?

CYA seems to me that a Lawyer would be able to get past a "break" in the Sanction, or even just before or after schemes?
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Old 08-05-2011, 09:58 AM
  #64
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Default RE: Does this mean no maidens @ Sanctioned Event?


Quote:
ORIGINAL: Ken Kehlet


I did NOT say it was an AMA Requirement for 6 flights. READ again.

In our AMA Sanctioned Events, Maiden's are NOT allowed to Fly in the contest. Every Model MUST have FLOWN at Least SIX (6) Flights prior to the contest. (We ASK the contestant how many flights are on the entry model)

Our field, OUR Rules.

Ken AMA 1528
My apologies...the rule you quoted was so identical to the IMAA rule that I made an error.

Interesting..I have been at a lot of events in a lot of states over the years and have never heard of a club having this rule in addition to the AMA safety code provisions.

Personally, I think it is unnessesary overkill, but as you said...your club, your rules.
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Old 08-05-2011, 09:59 AM
  #65
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Default RE: Does this mean no maidens @ Sanctioned Event?


Quote:
ORIGINAL: K-Bob

I'd rather be present when a new plane with new equipment and zero flights is flown then when old Herb pulls out the P51 from back in the day with s148s all around, a FM reciever with some of the antennae left, 600 flights and cracked CA hinges.
A well made point, there.
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Old 08-05-2011, 10:04 AM
  #66
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Default RE: Does this mean no maidens @ Sanctioned Event?

When I used to fly IMAC contests, there usually was a safety inspection...but it surely made sense with a field full of 33% + sized aircraft with 100cc+ engines.

While I kinda agree with K-Bob in that scenario, right out the box is when I trust electronics the least. That, and after a crash. I understand the spirit of the rule, it's just not reasonable in some cases; IRCHA being one example of it being un-enforceable.

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Old 08-05-2011, 10:20 AM
  #67
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Default RE: Does this mean no maidens @ Sanctioned Event?

At contests at the two control line clubs I belong to, non contestants are not allowed to fly during the contest. This rule is occasionally eased under circumstances where it seems safe and reasonable to do so.
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Old 08-06-2011, 05:21 AM
  #68
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Default RE: Does this mean no maidens @ Sanctioned Event?


Quote:
ORIGINAL: K-Bob

I'd rather be present when a new plane with new equipment and zero flights is flown then when old Herb pulls out the P51 from back in the day with s148s all around, a FM reciever with some of the antennae left, 600 flights and cracked CA hinges.
Maybe another rule should be implemented that specifies the maximum number of flights an airframe can have if to be flown in an event. Of course that would mean a requirement to keep a log book on the model. Actually, I wonder why that hasn't been imposed on us already...

Hmmm... a model airframe log...sounds cool. It would just be physically smaller and have to reside in the aircraft for inspection when required.
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Old 08-06-2011, 10:39 AM
  #69
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Default RE: Does this mean no maidens @ Sanctioned Event?

lol, logging toy airplanes, thats funny

oh
wait, we already have log requirements for some,
such as logging the time and inspections in 555.pdf
(the non-specific inspections for undetectable stress damage)

Quote:
Quote:
You want the models to have to have each part x-rayed before each flight?
Do you want to pay for the radiographs of your models?
then requiring inspections looking for invisible damage seems kinda... well, the word 'Silly' comes to mind. What are the log entries going to say
Monday: No invisible damage seen
Thursday: No invisible damage seen
Saturday: Major bend from groundstrike, hammered delicate blade back to shape while hitting crackpipe
Sunday: No invisible damage seen
Monday: Invisible damage cause catastrophic failure midflight, fire ensued on impact with ground
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Old 08-06-2011, 03:23 PM
  #70
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Default RE: Does this mean no maidens @ Sanctioned Event?

You are behind the power curve on the scaled logbook requirement. Check out the picture of the door pocket on our 42% Super Decathlon. It is in it's 3rd year on the fly in circuit.

As for the original first post, I can't imagine what is so important about flying any model that concessions to existing rules need to be made.
Quote:
ORIGINAL: littlecrankshaf


Quote:
ORIGINAL: K-Bob

I'd rather be present when a new plane with new equipment and zero flights is flown then when old Herb pulls out the P51 from back in the day with s148s all around, a FM reciever with some of the antennae left, 600 flights and cracked CA hinges.
Maybe another rule should be implemented that specifies the maximum number of flights an airframe can have if to be flown in an event. Of course that would mean a requirement to keep a log book on the model. Actually, I wonder why that hasn't been imposed on us already...

Hmmm... a model airframe log...sounds cool. It would just be physically smaller and have to reside in the aircraft for inspection when required.
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Old 08-06-2011, 05:37 PM
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Default RE: Does this mean no maidens @ Sanctioned Event?


Quote:
ORIGINAL: Gremlin Castle

You are behind the power curve on the scaled logbook requirement. Check out the picture of the door pocket on our 42% Super Decathlon. It is in it's 3rd year on the fly in circuit.

Nice to be ahead of the curve

BTW Nice interior... I hope I get the pleasure one day to see it in person.
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Old 08-07-2011, 01:16 AM
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Default RE: Does this mean no maidens @ Sanctioned Event?

I ran across a situation last Spring when I went to a Fun Float Fly. I just got a Seaplane that I bought from someone else and I hadn't been able to maiden my new Neptune, because there isn't many places around for me to fly where I live. Also I never flew a Seaplane before and I wanted to be a part of the event. Lake Ontario is too rough and windy most of the time and I don't own a boat. So this is what I did:

I contacted the Club that was hosting the event through E-mail and told them of my situation. They told me that if I showed up between 8:00-9:00am before the event started that they would allow me to maiden my plane and we would all know for sure she'd fly OK.

I showed up at 8:00am after driving 200 miles, and I'm happy to say she flew fine and I had a ball that day.

So if you hadn't maidened your plane either because you just finished building your plane, or just bought it from someone else and hadn't flown it like what happened to me, just contact the Event Coordinator and they will help you stay in the AMA Safety Rules. I hadn't met any Club who didn't want people to participate in a event that had a plane and a AMA Card. They were always happy to see another pilot show up and if there was any type of problem, they always gave me a hand when I needed it.


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Old 08-07-2011, 04:09 AM
  #73
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Default RE: Does this mean no maidens @ Sanctioned Event?

Just a couple of stray thoughts/questions.

Trying to get claims data from anyone about this would be futile since noone is going to let this out - if they did it probably would be used against the AMA or some pilot or club in any claim or court case.

What rule would you have if the present rule was gone?

Isn't the AMA self-insured?

One version would be to eliminate the rule altogether - but then it wouldn't take many "incidents" before the cost for the AMA would likely go up quite a bit. So do you all want to pay higher AMA dues?

Another version would be the pilot and the hosting club would assume all liability for all flights regardless of whether it was scheduled or not, and the AMA would just eliminate insurance altogether. So who would decide if the plane should fly? would it be an officer? would you eliminate CDs? You would then either have a free-for-all or maybe you would just have the officers be totally responsible/liable "field gods"? Would anyone be an officer if they were then personally liable for any accident that occurred?

Do you think that if there were no rules at all that clubs would continue to exist?

Our club had an event recently where a very nice jet crashed and caught fire in a big fireball. So what rule should apply to jets?

What rule should apply to planes of what size and speed? should some servos be banned, or some radios? Or should arfs have to meet some kind of approval process to be flight worthy? Who decides this?

If safety is a judgment call then the person doing the judgment would almost certainly be held reponsible in court/assume the risk.

If the event organizers bypass the rule are they assuming liability for any incidents? I would bet they would probably be sued and very likely have to pay their own court and attorney fees.

Ed
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Old 08-07-2011, 04:49 AM
  #74
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Default RE: Does this mean no maidens @ Sanctioned Event?


Quote:
ORIGINAL: K-Bob

I'd rather be present when a new plane with new equipment and zero flights is flown then when old Herb pulls out the P51 from back in the day with s148s all around, a FM reciever with some of the antennae left, 600 flights and cracked CA hinges.
With some of the arfs being sold now I certainly would strongly disagree with this. We have all seen arfs with poor glue joints and cgs way off for proper flight. I have seen arf wings come apart in the air after their first few flights. I have seen both fm radio controlled planes lose control, and I have also seen new 2.4 radios do the same. Some new servos have failed very soon, and 148s fail too. So do many other servos.

But I have seen MANY more issues on first flights than on later flights, ande ven during the first 20 or so flights over the last 20 years I have flown rc than on planes that have been flown 100 or more flights. Although I will say that certain brand planes and radios etc have more issues than others. So should those brands be banned from rc? Or is it that you just dont like certain pilots named Herb and/or planes (warbirds)?

Ed
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Old 08-07-2011, 07:16 AM
  #75
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Default RE: Does this mean no maidens @ Sanctioned Event?

Isnt this whole deal simply over folks that just dont want to wait a week till after the event?
Do the rules have to be changed to accommodate impatience in modeling?

Just how much safer is the crowd
if the CD of a 200man event calls an Event-TimeOut so folks can find out their new plane is way tail heavy in front of 200 human targets.
There is no change in safety from 200 event attendees at 11:59 becoming 200 guys that happen to be there at 12:01
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