jrb1

A flying friend asked me if he could maiden his PZ Wildcat BNF at an upcoming E Fly In; I said I didn’t know for sure.

Another guy said AMA Guidelines apply to sanctioned events – seemed not willing to say yes or no – maybe he’s a Lawer.

I found the following; seems to me it could be applied in numerous ways:

Academy of Model Aeronautics National Model Aircraft Safety Code
Effective January 1, 2011

3. Model aircraft will not be flown in AMA sanctioned events, air shows or model demonstrations unless:
(a) The aircraft, control system and pilot skills have successfully demonstrated all maneuvers intended or anticipated prior to the specific event.
(b) An inexperienced pilot is assisted by an experienced pilot.


If this means “No Maidens” period; then a BNF even bought at the event couldn’t be flown – I’ll bet this is far from the norm.


I can see lots of combinations of plane/pilot/radio, i.e.: proven plane/radio but 1st flight of it for an experienced pilot, etc.


Of course Common Sense should rule – but??

chris923

My Feedback: (53)

To the best of my knowledge, when you sign in at an event, you are stating that your plane is ready to fly and free of defects. You can't say that if the plane has not been maidened.

Chris923

rw Guinn

"A" is interpreted as:
1. The Aircraft must have demonstrated that it flies and the control system works as required.
2. the Pilot must have previously demonstrated that he has the skills to fly (that type of aircraft) safely.
if the pilot had to demonstrate previously that his skills were on that specific airplane, then "B" is useless and redundant

TimJ

A Maiden flight should never be performed at an event. Not just because it says so in a rule book.

But for safety reasons.

jrb1

Here’s that bit mumbo jumbo:

FLIGHT SAFETY DECLARATION FORM


RADIO CONTROL, GENERAL (FOR NONSCALE EVENTS)
2. Safety Declaration. At all sanctioned contests, each contestant shall sign an AMA Flight Safety Declaration (perhaps as part of an entry form), attesting to the fact that he/she has previously and is now capable of confidently performing the maneuvers comprising his competitive event. Furthermore, the contestant shall also similarly declare that any and all aircraft he/she uses in said competition have been test flown at least to the extent that they have performed the same competitive maneuvers and are therefore qualified to be flown in the contest and in the presence of fellow contestants, contest officials, and all others who may be in the flight area during the competition period.

Again no doubt room for interpretation, and probably not commonly adhered to; anybody buy something at SEFF and then fly it there??

Or, get JR TX done up to DSMX and then went and flew?

cj_rumley

"But" rules. It isn't viewed so much as a safety issue........AMA's concern is their own liability. The CD is AMA's agent at a sanctioned event, so what happens there is presumed to be under AMA's direct control and consent. When the question has come before, the HQ response (unofficial? Don't know that anyone has said so on the record) has been to the effect of "what the CD doesn't see doesn't involve us." IOW, before or after the published hours of the event, just do it. CDs and even EC members have taken breaks and walked off site from events to be accommodating of what you want to do.

BarracudaHockey

My Feedback: (11)

You're not supposed to maiden aircraft at an event, as the rules state.

Ask nicely the CD may just shut down the event to give you time depending on how busy it is.

Crash-RCU

See if you can fly early before the event offically starts.

wind junkie

My Feedback: (1)

Common sense really can't be legislated. This falls into the realm of what your folks and friends should have tought you growing up.

What is safe in the hands of one individual may not be safe in the hands of another.

Of course it's best for one to test his equipment away from others. However, despite one's best efforts, accidents will happen, and legislation in this case will likely fail to place blame fairly.

IMO these rules serve maily to "warn" those who fail to realize they shouldn't do something. Some people just need to be told.

DadsToysBG

My Feedback: (35)

I'm a CD. This is what I do. New plane, fly before the event starts. Talk to me, if you want to fly at 8am I'll start the event at 9. fly the plane when the event is over. If I call it at 5 fly at 5:15. If you sign the waiver and the plane is new and it hurts someone, I'm sending your name to the AMA with the accident report. A sanctioned event is a AMA event not a club event. The CD is responsible to the AMA and to the guests and pilots.
I never walk off the grounds during the event hours and any CD that does to allow a new plane to be tested should not be a CD. And it is a big safety issue. You just don't know what a new plane will do. Tail weight, nose weight, trim, engine.
We're having a giant scale event this week-end. I know of five people showing up tonight (Thursday) to test fly new planes. A couple want to test fly Friday morning early. If their not done I will hold off on starting because I want everybody to have fun.
We are fly anything from 20 to 50lbs. Do you really think i want a unproven plane in the air with 4 others and a crowd of guests.
Dennis

chris923

My Feedback: (53)

Well Put, a very common sense approach!

Chris923

tailskid

My Feedback: (34)

That's what I liked about the old Byron's show...I bet 10% were maiden (and crashed) each day!

littlecrankshaf

My Feedback: (58)

Seems a work around that defies the spirit of the rule while complying with the letter of the rule to me... Most of the factors of the "test flight" isn't changed much IMO by your CDing policy...Hmmm...Must be a bad rule if CDs are compelled to exploit the loopholes.

Chad Veich

My Feedback: (60)

Maybe yes, maybe no in my opinion. As I see it the "spirit" of the rule is to prevent test flights when there are large numbers of the non-modeling public around, AKA, spectators. At most of the events I attend there are precious few spectators around early in the morning before the event or late in the afternoon when the events generally wrap up. It's a moot point however as, assuming the event has not officially started or if it has officially ended then it's up to the discretion of the individual to decide whether to test fly or not and the responsability is on him/her. Now, if a CD were to push a start time or rush an end time so that somebody could "legally" test fly on an event day WHILE there were numerous spectators around then I would say said CD is definitely not adhering to the spirit of the rule. My .02 cents only.

Silent-AV8R

Keep in mind as well that this rule first came into being when we were gluing scratch and kit built planes together with Ambroid and Titebond. With the newer ARFs, BnF and RTF planes out there the situation is a bit different. I still think it is a bad idea to do a maiden with too many people around, especially spectators. But we also need to recognize that circumstances have changed quite a bit over time WRT the likely quality of a new plane. Yes, the best builders out there built awesome planes, but let's be real, we have all seen some real horror shows come out to the field. We still do in many respects, but at least most of the time they have a left AND a right wing and not two left wings (seen it too many times for it to be funny).

littlecrankshaf

My Feedback: (58)

Good post and you make some good points.

I'll just temper that with the concept of some competitions. At many IMAC events the spectator draw is usually insignificant. I think the rule was meant to insure the safety of everyone...even the participants. That being said, rules without a clear need can be problematic. a) the wording will always be construed against the maker in a court of law. May leave someone exposed in case of an accident. b) Will no doubt cause a conflict at some point when someone wants to "maiden" the day of an event...arbitrary subjectivity will always be a basis for contention.

Foremost, rules should always have a genuine need and clear, no doubt about it wording.

Maybe the rule should include some words that indicate a time, even if at the discretion of the CD for "maidening". That would go a long ways to absolving CD's of unprotected liabilities and help insure that if someone is hurt there is less "wiggle room" for the insurance company to get out of paying. A fix instead of a work around...

Bozarth

My Feedback: (15)

If not the day of, what about the day prior, when most of the competitors are there anyway? Most would have no problem with that, right? Then the morning of BUT prior to the official start of the event doesn't seem much different than the evening prior. I have been to many pylon races where contestants have test flown their brand spankin' new racers the morning of but prior to the start of the event. I believe the intent of the rule is to prevent pilots from "performing" with an untested model.

Same requirement exists for planes requiring significant repairs - many have "re-test" flown their repaired planes during the lunch break. I have seen this at pylon races and pattern contests.

Kurt

Edited to add the following question: What if one event finishes at noon, and the next event begins at 1:00 pm with an hour lunch break in between? Should I not be allowed to test fly my new racer for the next event during the lunch hour in between the other competitors who are practicing? This is a common occurrence at the RC Pylon Nats.

littlecrankshaf

My Feedback: (58)

Sounds fine...just a little wording to clear it all up...IMO...not trying to argue whether or not...just how best...

phlpsfrnk

At the risk of starting a firestorm here's where the origin of the rule comes from AC91-57.

Subject:

3. OPERATING STANDARDS.

b. Do not operate model aircraft in the presence of spectators until the aircraft is successfully flight tested and proven airworthy.

Beyond how one interprets this I would say it is up to the discretion of the CD because he is the one that is ultimately responsible.


Regards
Frank

squeakalong

My Feedback: (8)

I cannot believe the question of maiden flights at a sanctioned event even has to be asked. Where in heck has the idea of common sense and safety gone? Maiden the plane prior to the event or fly something else at the event. It's just not worth a possible crash into spectators with an unproven model aircraft.

Soft landings,

Joe

HighPlains

My Feedback: (1)

How does one define "significant repairs"? I have broke a glass fuselage in half, made the repair and raced in the next round of heats at a Nats.

lopflyers

My Feedback: (12)

Where I fly, maiden flights are called in for everybody in the field to know and take precautions. Just for safety

kram

My Feedback: (7)

Gosh, it's all so plane and builder and pilot and situation dependent.

Would you be afraid of Greg Hahn flying a trainer he just built and ground checked?

NO!

Would you be afraid of me maidening the first turbofan I ever built or flew? (I'm not there yet)

YOU DANG WELL SHOULD BE!!

Thinking back over the last 26 years I've been in the hobby, I'd have to say my accident rate on maidens is a lot less than it is for regular flights.

I'm not sure if I'm insulting or complimenting myself there.

My point is it's very situation-dependent. Flyers have extremely variable levels of skill: building, flying and JUDGMENT. That's why we have CD's. If I'm the CD, my gut response is nearly always "NO"



mt

bradpaul

Couple of relevant threads from the AMA Forum:

http://www.modelaircraft.org/forums/...MA+SAfety+Code

http://www.modelaircraft.org/forums/tm.aspx?m=3122

Brad

Thomas B

My Feedback: (4)

This subject always brings out a good bit of passion in people.

I respect the rule even though I am not certain that a one size fits all approach is the best way to handle it. but lots of people are most comfortable with the one size fits all rule...removes the need to think about situations.

I recently inadvertently broke this rule, without the intent to do so. I was an a sanctioned indoor event early this year. After a long day of flying, I was packing up and reaized that I had put the first 3 flights on my Hobbyzone Micro Champ that day, during the fly in. Oops. I had had the model for a number on months (won it at the club Xmas party), but with weather delays, it had not ever been flown. I had set it up in a model memory a while back and tested everything, but was too windy to fly it.

I had more than a dozen indoor R/C models there and it sort of fell through the cracks. Should have done it outside of event hours to be legal. My bad.

Not the end of the world in this case, given that the model weighs one oz and the risk of an injury accident wth such a model is vanishingly low....hugely less than the same situaton with with a giant scale warbird, for instance.

I do make intentional maidens "around" sanctioned events. After hours, before hours, during lunch, when the event is not in session. Seems workable to me. Usually announcements are made so that anyone at the field is aware if the model is of any significant size.

The AMA has given tacit approval for this, through discussions with Jim Rice and his "Junkyard Wars" event, where models are built from odds and ends during the event. The AMA told Jim that it would be ok to stop the sanction at some point in the afternoon. An announcement is then made that the offical event is over and that there will be a number of maidens of these unflown models. With this announcement, there is no one present that is unaware of the experimental test flights. Everyone can watch and be aware that way. This mitigates the prime reason for not flying unproven models at events: endangering the unaware spectator or event attendee.

Seems fair to me and within the letter as well as the spirit of the regulation.