AMA Discussions Discuss AMA policies, decisions & any other AMA related topics here.

View Poll Results: A poll
Yes, our self-policing efforts (i.e. AMA Safety Codes) aren''t working.
4.81%
Yes, the world has changed considerably since 9/11.
15.96%
I''m not sure.
5.58%
No, the FAA has no business regulating "hobby" airplanes.
34.62%
No, we are fully capable of policing ourselves.
12.69%
No, the perceived threat to society doesn't exist!
13.85%
I hate polls like this!
12.50%
Voters: 520. You may not vote on this poll

Do you think the FAA should be sticking its nose into our hobby?

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Old 01-22-2012, 09:32 AM
  #51
Speedy-Gonzales
 
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Default RE: Do you think the FAA should be sticking its nose into our hobby?


Quote:
ORIGINAL: H5487

Quote:
ORIGINAL: cublover
I made my own ordinance and dropped them many times, but they were never,,,,NEVER,,, made to kill anyone... They just made a nice boom....
Despite your intentions not to hurt anyone, you clearly and willfully showed a complete disregard for the AMA Safety Code AND the existing Federal Aviation Regulations regarding dropping potentially harmful objects from an aircraft (ANY aircraft). It appears to me that YOU are one of those malcontents who is now bringing the government down on the entire hobby.

Thanks!

Harvey
+1 DITTO Harvey!!!
I caught that one too.

SPEEDY
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Old 01-22-2012, 10:00 AM
  #52
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Default RE: Do you think the FAA should be sticking its nose into our hobby?

Quote:
ORIGINAL: Speedy-Gonzales


Quote:
ORIGINAL: H5487

Quote:
ORIGINAL: cublover
I made my own ordinance and dropped them many times, but they were never,,,,NEVER,,, made to kill anyone... They just made a nice boom....
Despite your intentions not to hurt anyone, you clearly and willfully showed a complete disregard for the AMA Safety Code AND the existing Federal Aviation Regulations regarding dropping potentially harmful objects from an aircraft (ANY aircraft). It appears to me that YOU are one of those malcontents who is now bringing the government down on the entire hobby.

Thanks!

Harvey
+1 DITTO Harvey!!!
I caught that one too.

SPEEDY
I just hope the news media doesn't catch it too! We've already got an uphill battle facing us. We don't need one of "our own" doing additional damage to our hobby's reputation!

Harvey
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Old 01-22-2012, 10:21 AM
  #53
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Default RE: Do you think the FAA should be sticking its nose into our hobby?

I'd say better the FAA than Homeland Security...
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Old 01-22-2012, 10:44 AM
  #54
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Default RE: [Awaiting Approval]

Quote:
ORIGINAL: Silent-AV8R

Quote:
ORIGINAL: H5487
However, I disagree in that the proposed regulations are entirely FAA-driven. I can see where TSA and Homeland Security are also concerned about an uncontained proliferation of domestic UAVs.
While TSA/DHS may have those worries, the FAA has repeatedly stated that their charge is air safety and security concerns are not their job. Nowhere in anything the FAA has published or said will you find a single mention of security as having anything to do with the SFAR 107 sUAS Rule.

Look at this:

http://www.faa.gov/about/initiatives...FACT_Sheet.pdf

First major heading: ''FAA's Role: Safety First''

This document does a good job of outlining the need from their point of view:

http://www.faa.gov/about/office_org/...%20Systems.pdf


The FAA was founded to protect the public from the growing number of poorly, or untrained pilots that started showing up after WWI, due to the availability of cheap surplus aircraft. Many would be pilots saw an oportunity to make money with no rules hindering them. Without regulations the fear is that profits will trump saftey. Now while their main concern is the safety of air traffic, they are also responsible for the safety of the general public and the regs will be written with that in mind. It will not be overtly homeland security, it will be about public safety, but there may not be much of a difference.
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Old 01-22-2012, 10:53 AM
  #55
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Default RE: Do you think the FAA should be sticking its nose into our hobby?

I'm going to be bashed for this, but quite honestly, if you consider a 30 pound gasser to be any less dangerous than many other, far stricter regulated hobbies, you need to get our more.

I'm not suggesting that the governments of the world have mandatory licensing, limit who can fly legally etc, (Unless the year is 1984 ) but maybe at a certain weight there could be mandatory insurance or a waiver, like current turbine models, or some of the really "giant" scalers. I get the anti-AMA types wouldn't like to hear that, but why not? The cost per year is like eating out one night at Swiss Chalet - and if anything goes wrong, you are protected. Unless damage to yourself, someone's property, or someone else isn't worth a hundred bucks to you.

The FAA could specify the models requiring insurance, such as those above a certain weight. Park flyers, and little foamies wouldn't be bothered with. The AMA, MAAC, or whatever agency is the major modelling body would still be in control of modelling events, but be better represented to the FAA when it is needed.

Just a thought.


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Old 01-22-2012, 11:02 AM
  #56
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Default RE: Do you think the FAA should be sticking its nose into our hobby?

I'm not completely opposed to some sort of regulation- perhaps just one that states: All aero-modelers that participate in flying model aircraft larger than a 'park-flyer' are required to join and adhere to the rules, regulations and safety standards established by the AMA.

If the FAA gets involved more that that- you will be required to have a license to operate an RC airplane. I'm not opposed to a license idea- but I am opposed to having to pay 100+ dollars to get one.

Quote:
ORIGINAL: Speedy-Gonzales

Here is some food for thought:

You need a license to go fishing
You need a license to go hunting
You need a license to drive a car/truck
You need a license to ride a motorcycle
You need a license to build a house
You need a license to get married
You need a license to dig a hole in your backyard
You need a license to own a dog


But you don't need any license or any form of credentials that prove you are worthy, financially capable, or responsible to have children. Any idiot, deadbeat, drug addicted looser, can have a child. There are absolutely no mandates for having children in this world and I believe that is where many of our modern day problems arise from. If you don't believe me...go to WallyWorld and watch the parade.

Freedom is a wonderful thing but it does not give you the right to do whatever you damned well please.

Some may view this a radical thinking but why would you place more emphasis on having a dog over bringing a human life into this world! That is, in a nutshell, just how messed up things are these days.

I am not against our current governing body for flying model airplanes. I am against the misinformed, intellectual idiots that perceive our hobby as dangerous to the public citizens of this country. I am also against those within the modelling community that abuse their privledges and make the rest of us look bad when something goes wrong due to blatent stupidity. You can do good a thousand times and no one cares but make one stupid mistake and the whole world notices.

Let's be honest with ourselves here. When you have a model capable of speeds in excess of 200 mph it is no longer considered a toy or even a ''hobby''. It is a liability and demands resposibility. I do believe there is a distinct difference between the hobby as a ''sport'' and the hobby as an extreme extension of the ''sport''. You can not govern multiple aspects of our modern models with one set of rules, but I do not feel the hobby/sport should be penalized as a whole as the FAA is trying to do.

SPEEDY
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Old 01-22-2012, 11:21 AM
  #57
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Default RE: Do you think the FAA should be sticking its nose into our hobby?

From what I suspect that is exactly what will be proposed/mandated by the FAA.

A license............................ not just a membership.

What it all boils down to is money..........plain and simple.

Soak the general public so Government Bureaucrats can have a job!

SPEEDY

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Old 01-22-2012, 11:35 AM
  #58
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Default RE: Do you think the FAA should be sticking its nose into our hobby?

The Federal government is going broke. Answer, Find more activities that can pay licensing fees and obtain certifications to participate. The Feds have already increased "user" fees at all the parks, and other public lands. They increase the tax on gasoline when they want to. So why not find hobbies that they can tax and dictate what they can and can not do?
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Old 01-22-2012, 11:45 AM
  #59
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Default RE: Do you think the FAA should be sticking its nose into our hobby?

May I be allowed to say that your watermellon is working overtime and doing one heck of a job?


Quote:
ORIGINAL: H5487


Quote:
ORIGINAL: littlecrankshaf


Quote:
ORIGINAL: H5487

Quote:
ORIGINAL: Airplanes400

I hate these kinds of polls. I hate all polls.
Then why did you participate in this one???

Harvey

Well, maybe since there was one poll option; ''I hate polls like this” LOL
LCS,

I'll let you in on a little secret as long as you promise not to let it out. I put that option in the poll for the same reason that a farmer puts a cut-opened watermelon off to the side of his roadside stand. It distracts the flies away from contaminating the main event.

Harvey
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Old 01-22-2012, 11:49 AM
  #60
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Default RE: Do you think the FAA should be sticking its nose into our hobby?

Like it or not, the FAA has been involved in the regulation of model aircraft/rockets for many decades. This is nothing new.
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Old 01-22-2012, 11:49 AM
  #61
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Default RE: Do you think the FAA should be sticking its nose into our hobby?

How much C4 could one get into a 30# remote control airplane and launch from the end of an airport somewhere into the engine of a 747 or something?  Taking off from a side street within visual site and altitude of outbound traffic?
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Old 01-22-2012, 11:52 AM
  #62
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Default RE: Do you think the FAA should be sticking its nose into our hobby?

JK

Up to now they have done a great job, why change it?
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Old 01-22-2012, 12:08 PM
  #63
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Default RE: Do you think the FAA should be sticking its nose into our hobby?

Maybe part of the problem is the military?

I mean, the media commonly portrays drones and UAV's to be just more expensive RC aircraft, and no doubt the general public "understands" this as well. I've seen more than one television special where this false analogy was used. Even worse is the massive scale desensitisation among the general public. We see movies, TV shows, endless video games and even songs about violence and war. And what is the first thing anyone asks us about our models?  

"Can it drop bombs, or can I put a gun in it?" 

Maybe if our hobby was known as a hobby, and not tied to the crutch of violence, we wouldn't have to worry as much about people's genuine concern for their safety from the local RC club. Education is important here, and we need to show everyone what our hobby is really about.

Graeme
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Old 01-22-2012, 12:12 PM
  #64
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Default RE: Do you think the FAA should be sticking its nose into our hobby?

They are doing the same kinds of things to those of us who fly/own full scale. It all started after the terror attacks. It amounts to curing a hangnail by removing your arm.:-(
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Old 01-22-2012, 12:12 PM
  #65
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Default RE: Do you think the FAA should be sticking its nose into our hobby?


Quote:
ORIGINAL: mrbigg

Do we have a choice? The government will do what ever they want. I suprised they haven't implemented some kind of ''Flight Tax'' on us yet.
Give them time..........
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Old 01-22-2012, 12:16 PM
  #66
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Default RE: Do you think the FAA should be sticking its nose into our hobby?

You hit it right on the nail head. Lots of misinformation being feed to the sheeple:-(
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Old 01-22-2012, 12:16 PM
  #67
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Default RE: Do you think the FAA should be sticking its nose into our hobby?


Quote:
ORIGINAL: Gizmo-RCU

JK

Up to now they have done a great job, why change it?
Elementary my dear Watson.......mo money, mo money, mo money!
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Old 01-22-2012, 12:18 PM
  #68
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Default RE: Do you think the FAA should be sticking its nose into our hobby?


Quote:
ORIGINAL: ggraham500

I think you need one more option in the vote:

''Yes, but I think our self-policing efforts (i.e. AMA Safety Rules) are probably enough.''
I agree with the above statement. Sure, the older smaller aircraft couldn't do much damage, but the newer, larger, more powerful aircraft out now can surely hurt someone or worse. And I don't necessarily mean intentionally. Do you think each person does a proper pre- and post-flight inspection 100% of the time? Definitely worthy of the FAA or TC to be concerned.
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Old 01-22-2012, 12:30 PM
  #69
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Default RE: Do you think the FAA should be sticking its nose into our hobby?




Right after you say this:" There have been some good points brought out by both sides. Unfortunately, too few have shown a willingness to listen.
2. Much like in an armed conflict, the "enemy" (in this case, the FAA) knows that it will enjoy an easy victory when it sees that its opposition is spending all of its energy fighting among themselves. "

Harvey

you say this?
"Despite your intentions not to hurt anyone, you clearly and willfully showed a complete disregard for the AMA Safety Code AND the existing Federal Aviation Regulations regarding dropping potentially harmful objects from an aircraft (ANY aircraft). It appears to me that YOU are one of those malcontents who is now bringing the government down on the entire hobby.

Thanks!"

Harvey

Wow!

If you really want a laugh (or cry), think about how many folks have died as a result of
full scale aviation just in the last year.

And FAA wants to protect them from us???[:@]
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Old 01-22-2012, 12:33 PM
  #70
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Default RE: Do you think the FAA should be sticking its nose into our hobby?

I have my doubts about a license requirement. Never in my life could I imagine it, for what is essentially considered a "toy" by many. I do, however, remember back in the day when RC required a certificate from the FCC. It was a simple application, and a fee. That was all that was required, then go flying. I don't remember flying fields where AMA membership was specified either, but quote me if I'm wrong. Back then, people would just take their .049 Cox to the local baseball diamond, and all the neighborhood kids would gather to watch. RC was something done out in the country, off of someone's farm. Nobody would even imagine the possibility of a license, simply because model airplanes were so benign. What harm can 10 pounds of balsa do? Part of the trouble with people today, is they want to put a motorcycle engine on a 90 pound behemoth. Or, they want a 600mph screaming jet.

My hunch is: An altitude restriction will likely be imposed, unless there's clearance like they do in high-powered rocketry. The NAR and Tripoli can live with this, as they do launches on a routine basis without consequences, and in a safe manner. I used to launch rockets to over 3,500 feet during club meets, and had access to motors and propellents that until recently, were restricted by the BATFE. The FAA never winked or batted an eye. Like with the rocketry organizations, I'm sure the AMA can work around all this with few issues.

NS
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Old 01-22-2012, 12:36 PM
  #71
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Default RE: Do you think the FAA should be sticking its nose into our hobby?


Quote:
ORIGINAL: Lins


Quote:
ORIGINAL: ggraham500

I think you need one more option in the vote:

''Yes, but I think our self-policing efforts (i.e. AMA Safety Rules) are probably enough.''
I agree with the above statement. Sure, the older smaller aircraft couldn't do much damage, but the newer, larger, more powerful aircraft out now can surely hurt someone or worse. And I don't necessarily mean intentionally. Do you think each person does a proper pre- and post-flight inspection 100% of the time? Definitely worthy of the FAA or TC to be concerned.
You ever been hit of seen someone get hit with a out of control 7-9 lb warturd ? or even a 5lb trainer at full throttle ?

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Old 01-22-2012, 12:40 PM
  #72
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Default RE: Do you think the FAA should be sticking its nose into our hobby?


Quote:
ORIGINAL: countilaw

The Federal government is going broke. Answer, Find more activities that can pay licensing fees and obtain certifications to participate. The Feds have already increased ''user'' fees at all the parks, and other public lands. They increase the tax on gasoline when they want to. So why not find hobbies that they can tax and dictate what they can and can not do?
I doubt that. If the government's goal was to use model airplanes as an untapped tax base, it would be easier (and would also include R/C car and boat hobbyists) to simply reenact the FCC's old Radiotelephone Operator's Permit that used to be required in order to operate an R/C transmitter. The government could also place a hefty "fuel tax" on our nitro fuels.

No, I see the upcoming regulations as a result of the sudden and rapid proliferation of domestic UAV development (of which our model airplanes are included by definition).

My personal prediction is that we'll be left alone as long as we stay below some soon-to-be-announced weight, wingspan, and/or speed limitations and I predict that the AMA will continue to be the primary safety monitor for this group. Get big, heavy, and/or fast and you'll likely be subjected to some new government oversight.

Harvey
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Old 01-22-2012, 12:41 PM
  #73
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Default RE: Do you think the FAA should be sticking its nose into our hobby?


Quote:
ORIGINAL: wahoo


Quote:
ORIGINAL: Lins


Quote:
ORIGINAL: ggraham500

I think you need one more option in the vote:

''Yes, but I think our self-policing efforts (i.e. AMA Safety Rules) are probably enough.''
I agree with the above statement. Sure, the older smaller aircraft couldn't do much damage, but the newer, larger, more powerful aircraft out now can surely hurt someone or worse. And I don't necessarily mean intentionally. Do you think each person does a proper pre- and post-flight inspection 100% of the time? Definitely worthy of the FAA or TC to be concerned.
You ever been hit of seen someone get hit with a out of control 7-9 lb warturd ? or even a 5lb trainer at full throttle ?

What are you, 13?
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Old 01-22-2012, 12:53 PM
  #74
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Default RE: Do you think the FAA should be sticking its nose into our hobby?

Yeah I'm 13 and I'm just tired of some of our own communities way of thinking.



Quote:
ORIGINAL: Lins


Quote:
ORIGINAL: ggraham500

I think you need one more option in the vote:

''Yes, but I think our self-policing efforts (i.e. AMA Safety Rules) are probably enough.''
I agree with the above statement. Sure, the older smaller aircraft couldn't do much damage, but the newer, larger, more powerful aircraft out now can surely hurt someone or worse. And I don't necessarily mean intentionally. Do you think each person does a proper pre- and post-flight inspection 100% of the time? Definitely worthy of the FAA or TC to be concerned.
So ya ...if what it takes is a 13 year old to make the case that giant scale planes are not any more to blame then any other size rc plane so be it.

Not to many newbies that I've witnessed can afford a 40% Carden or a multi-thousand dollar turbine, I'm sure there are the exceptions, but it seem that the 40 size circle jerks and warturd fliers would lead one to believe that this mess was created because of them.


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Old 01-22-2012, 12:55 PM
  #75
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Default RE: Do you think the FAA should be sticking its nose into our hobby?

The poll isn't written well. Too many of the options are saying the same thing. It should just be a simple Yes, No or Don't know.

I watched the 6 part talk. This is typical GVT getting ready to muscle in on another area. They have mucked up general aviation so much that not many people can enter into becoming a private pilot anymore. Rules, regulations, licenses, required testing, equipment inspections, required renewals, certifications... etc etc etc. $$$$$$$$

Listen to what the FAA officials are saying during the discussion. They want a set of standards that we fly by so that they can use that as regulation.

The AMA thinks this is great because we already have a set of standards that we fly by, and if the FAA accepts our standards, then that will make membership soar, or as Rich Hanson put it, we can sell our standard to someone to use since it is our property. So I'm a little worried that AMA is jumping into bed with the FED because they will have an opportunity to benefit.

I don't think the two FAA officials in the discussion have any idea what is going on either past their mission which is to develop a set of standards to which all modelers must be held accountable to. Its what happens after that is the real problem.

Once this set of standards is created, then comes the part that nobody thinks about. Say they create a set of standards that become law. How do you enforce these new rules? You need to hire people to represent the FAA who will have the sole purpose of enforcing the new rules. Like these two officials that said they would like to be the one that has that job, they are going to need one heck of a lot of people to cover all of the USA. So that's bigger Government. In order to fund all these new jobs, the FAA is going to have to raise capital somehow. That will be by creating a fee to fly, or a license. Now they gesture that if you have AMA then you will be good to go, however, there is a good chance that the FAA will be talking to the AMA about a "standards fee". If we as members pay the AMA for standards use, then you can bet the FAA will want some of that fee to cover their enforcement services. More government will need money from somewhere.

Then there is the economic impact. How many American airplane companies were there 40 years ago? Many more than there are now. General Aviation has become so expensive due to GVT regulation that people quit doing it. And when people quit doing it, then the suppliers of aviation goods quit making them. No demand, no supply, no business.

Look at model aviation today. Look at the selection of materials, planes, kits, motors, batteries, technology etc. Huge amounts of items. Think about how many of those people that buy the items from all of these manufacturers and aren't AMA members. AMA members aren't the majority of hobby buyers. They might be the largest organized group, but not the majority of the entire modeler universe. If you suddenly tell everyone that has intent to fly a plane, heli, EDF, parkflyer, Jet, 3d, that they will need to pay a licensing fee to use it, (be it AMA or FAA fee) then a good amount of people won't. And the youth that we hold so important to our future of modeling will be the first. Regulation can only cause damage, it can't possibly improve things when it comes to supply and demand. It sounds like a little thing but when you spread it over a large group, the effect is exponential.

We recreational hobbyists do not need to be regulated. Common sense is not something that can be dictated buy a government agency that has decimated the industry it has regulated, and is now looking to expand to have something else to do. Stick to the ones that fly people, and leave us the hell alone.

Remember last year when Congress decided that the FAA has no jurisdiction over modeling, and we thought that was the end of that? What changed?
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