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Regulation passed the House

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Old 03-07-2012, 08:06 AM
  #701
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ORIGINAL: extra-nut

Ok JS you got me. Seems the AMA is responsible for a couple of things;

1) Excellent record keeping of statistics from competition flying of all kinds, from all across the USA. (gotta have stuff for the magazine you know)

2) This mess we are in right now! I am still not convinced that any branch of the government, has any desire to regulate " line of sight" flying of any type. I mean really, how far can you go.

Looks like all other guidlines, measurements, safety requirements etc. are merely suggestions, not etched in stone rules. When have you ever heard of the AMA repremanding anyone for flying to high, far or fast?

Oh, one more thing I'm starting to feel they are responsible for;

3) Using MY membership dues to fund a battle for regulations in MY hobby!!??


What past AMA actions are you referring to?
How about over 75 years of safe, fun recreational flying.

Fabulous flying events all over the country.

Thousands of clubs that offer safe flying fields, camaraderie and lots of fun.

Using their powerful influence and my membership dues to protect our great hobby from over-regulation by federal agencies.

How's that for starters?


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Old 03-07-2012, 08:12 AM
  #702
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ORIGINAL: KidEpoxy


How exactly will we be able to keep doing what we do, if some of the stuff we do is/willbe illegal?

Blah, blah, blah...
We don't do anything now that is illegal and that will not change. Everything in the AMA safety code is legal and the code will not change. Which mean s that the safety code approved by the FAAwill contain everything that we do now.

If you want to do something illegal, you will have to violate the code.

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Old 03-07-2012, 12:12 PM
  #703
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man I just tried to digest the rule changes and after reading many of the topic posts I still am unclear what has actually transpired.I was a senior health executive for years and have read the federal register and CCR rules and regs to interepret health care codes but having read this stuff so far I am clueless as to what the new law means for die hard modellers.we arent model hobbyists flying models but apparently persons flying "unarmed remote vehicles weighing under 55 pounds.???and we have to have an established set of operating rules if we are within 5 miles of an airport..does that mean we get cleareance each time we fly??I doubt that but not sure what the reg is.why couldnt someone just print the rules in an easy to read format so we can understand what it is that we need to know????I love how lawyers makeup the language and the rest of us have to spend hours trying figure what is really being said..
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Old 03-07-2012, 12:23 PM
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Ambiguity is the law makers friend, that way you can change the meaning to suit the situation
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Old 03-07-2012, 12:27 PM
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ORIGINAL: cloudancer03

man I just tried to digest the rule changes and after reading many of the topic posts I still am unclear what has actually transpired.I was a senior health executive for years and have read the federal register and CCR rules and regs to interepret health care codes but having read this stuff so far I am clueless as to what the new law means for die hard modellers.we arent model hobbyists flying models but apparently persons flying "unarmed remote vehicles weighing under 55 pounds.???and we have to have an established set of operating rules if we are within 5 miles of an airport..does that mean we get cleareance each time we fly??I doubt that but not sure what the reg is.why couldnt someone just print the rules in an easy to read format so we can understand what it is that we need to know????I love how lawyers makeup the language and the rest of us have to spend hours trying figure what is really being said..
It looks like many of the things that we modelers have been doingwill be gone unless they are AMA members, beyond that untill the FAA publishes it's new rules
we dont really know what we are in for.

Also the AMA has a revised safety code in the works.
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Old 03-07-2012, 12:29 PM
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ORIGINAL: RTK

Ambiguity is the law makers friend, that way you can change the meaning to suit the situation
Good point 100% correct.
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Old 03-07-2012, 12:43 PM
  #707
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ORIGINAL: cloudancer03

man I just tried to digest the rule changes and after reading many of the topic posts I still am unclear what has actually transpired.I was a senior health executive for years and have read the federal register and CCR rules and regs to interepret health care codes but having read this stuff so far I am clueless as to what the new law means for die hard modellers.we arent model hobbyists flying models but apparently persons flying ''unarmed remote vehicles weighing under 55 pounds.???and we have to have an established set of operating rules if we are within 5 miles of an airport..does that mean we get cleareance each time we fly??I doubt that but not sure what the reg is.why couldnt someone just print the rules in an easy to read format so we can understand what it is that we need to know????I love how lawyers makeup the language and the rest of us have to spend hours trying figure what is really being said..
You're right about the airport thing. The statute is far from clear. I think the AMA is working on a proposed form of agreement, but what happens if the airport people don't agree is uncertain. The law doesn't require an agreement, it just says we "should" have one. I've never seen a law before that said people "should" do something; most of them are about what you can't do or what you can do. Saying "should" in a law is just weird; that's a word parents use with their kids, not one lawmakers use with the public And no one will know what happens to non-AMA members until the FAA publishes its new rules. Apart from those things, though, it seems clear that AMA members flying at AMA club fields and following the AMA safety code will be fine. Not certain whether AMA members at non-AMA-club fields will be exempt from the new FAA rules. So the legislation is very good news for modelers. A few months ago some of us feared that flying within five miles of an airport would be banned outright. I don't think there's anyplace in the county where I live that's more than five miles from some airport.

The problem here isn't just that the law is hard to read, it's also that it doesn't answer all of our questions.
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Old 03-07-2012, 01:21 PM
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I would LOVE to be able to fly my R/C planes via something similar to Fat Sharks 922 Teleporter system from my living room for say maybe , 10 to 15 MILE radius !!!
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Old 03-07-2012, 02:40 PM
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Quote:
ORIGINAL: Top_Gunn


Quote:
ORIGINAL: cloudancer03

man I just tried to digest the rule changes and after reading many of the topic posts I still am unclear what has actually transpired.I was a senior health executive for years and have read the federal register and CCR rules and regs to interepret health care codes but having read this stuff so far I am clueless as to what the new law means for die hard modellers.we arent model hobbyists flying models but apparently persons flying ''unarmed remote vehicles weighing under 55 pounds.???and we have to have an established set of operating rules if we are within 5 miles of an airport..does that mean we get cleareance each time we fly??I doubt that but not sure what the reg is.why couldnt someone just print the rules in an easy to read format so we can understand what it is that we need to know????I love how lawyers makeup the language and the rest of us have to spend hours trying figure what is really being said..
You're right about the airport thing. The statute is far from clear. I think the AMA is working on a proposed form of agreement, but what happens if the airport people don't agree is uncertain. The law doesn't require an agreement, it just says we "should" have one. I've never seen a law before that said people "should" do something; most of them are about what you can't do or what you can do. Saying "should" in a law is just weird; that's a word parents use with their kids, not one lawmakers use with the public And no one will know what happens to non-AMA members until the FAA publishes its new rules. Apart from those things, though, it seems clear that AMA members flying at AMA club fields and following the AMA safety code will be fine. Not certain whether AMA members at non-AMA-club fields will be exempt from the new FAA rules. So the legislation is very good news for modelers. A few months ago some of us feared that flying within five miles of an airport would be banned outright. I don't think there's anyplace in the county where I live that's more than five miles from some airport.

The problem here isn't just that the law is hard to read, it's also that it doesn't answer all of our questions.
You know, I don't think anybody posting in this forum (and Iwill count myself in that list) fully understands the meaning and implications of the FAAfunding instrument that was signed into law. To begin with, it is not directed at us. It is a funding bill given to the FAA which gives them money to do certain things specified in the bill. Among those actions and tasks is a provision to regulate small unmanned aviation systems (sUAS). These systems are commercially available to law enforcement agencies and business that want to fly over public paces for innocent or nefarious purposes. Additionally, since model airplanes suspiciously resemble sUAS we would also be subject to these regulations. To protect us from this unnecessary regulation, the AMA lobbied congress to insert a provision into the bill that will exempt model aviation from the regulations, provided that we meet specific criteria. This criteria is in the bill and has been posted many times in this forum.

Since the funding bill is directed to the FAA it is up to the FAA to determine if the criteria are met. To that end, the AMAhas been working with the FAA to establish that they are a national Community Based Organization (CBO) representing model aviation and that their safety guidelines, when properly documented, will satisfy the criteria specified in the funding bill and not pose a hazard to the national airspace which the FAA is charged with managing and protecting. When these safety guidelines are completed and accepted by the FAA, then all AMA member model aviators, who wish not to be regulated, must fly in accordance with those guidelines. Which is no big deal since we already do that.

However, the FAAis still left with regulating anybody else who does not wish to comply with the AMA guidelines. One possibility is that the might create a set of rules for model aviators who do not wish to associate with AMA members and clubs. I think of them as lone rangers. It is a possibility that the FAA may, rather then spend time and money writing a special set of rules, simply adopt the AMA safety guidelines as the official FAAmodel airplane regulations and require that the lone rangers comply with them. However, these lone rangers will not have to join the AMAor fly at AMA club fields. The just must follow the rules. The FAA would have to ask the AMA to make the guidelines available to the public. At last word, the AMA has expressed willingness to do this but were considering charging a fee for a copy of the guidelines.

So basically nothing has changed or will change. Each model aviator is responsible for flying safely and not creating a hazard to the NAS. If any damage or injury results from the actions of a model aviator, the pilot and plane owner will be held responsible. AMA members who have followed the rules have insurance to help defray expenses of this sort. Non AMAmembers are on their own.

Now is that clear as mud?






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Old 03-07-2012, 03:15 PM
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Quote:
ORIGINAL: Top_Gunn

So basically nothing has changed or will change. Each model aviator is responsible for flying safely and not creating a hazard to the NAS. If any damage or injury results from the actions of a model aviator, the pilot and plane owner will be held responsible. AMA members who have followed the rules have insurance to help defray expenses of this sort. Non AMA members are on their own.

Now is that clear as mud?
Don't take this as an argument, this is the way I see it, and I do agree whole hartetly with your above statement.

Not much will change concerning model aviation unless you do not want to follow a CBO's rules, guidelines and regs. If how ever you choose not to you must follow the FAA rules and regs proposed by them. This might include out fitting your air vehicle with avoidance/collision measures, altitude and corridor restrictions, maybe even IFR pilots license.
I know of a particular UAV company which is requiring new pilots to obtain a minimum of private pilots ground school certificate before allowing them to be trained for flight........... The FAA is more concerned about interaction of UAV's (collisions) and public safety due to the fact of how and where they fly than a modeler using line of sight....They probably have NO concern with us, but a plane is a plane and they all can fly in NAS.......Just my take on things.
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Old 03-07-2012, 04:16 PM
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So basically nothing has changed or will change
It will change for people flying within five miles of an airport, and that probably includes most of us (get a sectional chart for your area; you may be surprised). Unfortunately, we don't know what the changes will be. It may or may not change for people who don't join the AMA, not that I care much about them. The new law doesn't answer all our questions, but it answers some of them.
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Old 03-07-2012, 05:39 PM
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Quote:
ORIGINAL: RTK



Quote:
ORIGINAL: Top_Gunn

So basically nothing has changed or will change. Each model aviator is responsible for flying safely and not creating a hazard to the NAS. If any damage or injury results from the actions of a model aviator, the pilot and plane owner will be held responsible. AMA members who have followed the rules have insurance to help defray expenses of this sort. Non AMAmembers are on their own.

Now is that clear as mud?
Don't take this as an argument, this is the way I see it, and I do agree whole hartetly with your above statement.

Not much will change concerning model aviation unless you do not want to follow a CBO's rules, guidelines and regs. If how ever you choose not to you must follow the FAA rules and regs proposed by them. This might include out fitting your air vehicle with avoidance/collision measures, altitude and corridor restrictions, maybe even IFR pilots license.
I know of a particular UAV company which is requiring new pilots to obtain a minimum of private pilots ground school certificate before allowing them to be trained for flight........... The FAA is more concerned about interaction of UAV's (collisions) and public safety due to the fact of how and where they fly than a modeler using line of sight....They probably have NO concern with us, but a plane is a plane and they all can fly in NAS.......Just my take on things.
Exactly, we are in violent agreement with each other. The lone ranger is on his own and I don't feel very sorry for him or her for that matter.

Actually, I have heard that the sUAS rules will include aircraft certification and pilot certification to very stringent and exacting standards. The process will be slow, arduous and hideously expensive.



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Old 03-07-2012, 05:57 PM
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Clouddancer
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and have read the federal register and CCR rules and regs to interepret health care codes but having read this stuff so far I am clueless as to what the new law means for die hard modellers.we arent model hobbyists flying models but apparently persons flying "unarmed remote vehicles weighing under 55 pounds.???and we have to have an established set of operating rules if we are within 5 miles of an airport..does that mean we get cleareance each time we fly??I doubt that but not sure what the reg is.why couldnt someone just print the rules in an easy to read format so we can understand what it is that we need to know????I
The rules are simple-
All the rules & regs the FAA had for models and UAS are still in effect, no change there.
Congress has created a protection from FAA rules if you meet congress' requirements.
Congress has also defined what it takes to be a Model Aircraft, and what it takes to be a CBO.

easy peasy

Now, for some specifics-
The FAA has a rule saying Models can only fly for hobby/sport/recreation, and others must be certified/licensed.
Other wise, models are pretty much left alone by the FAA, but at some point in the not distant future that will change.
Congress has a requirement to get its protection, the 5Mile Airport Notice requirement for protection.

What that means-
Right now, you are required by congress to meet it s 5Mile Airport Notice requirement to be protected from FAA rules. But since there are basicly not really any model rules/regs from the FAA in existence, there aint really anything you are actually getting protected FROM if you get the congress protection. SO, if you fail to meet congress requirements (like you fail to do the 5Mile Airport Notice) then you are not protected from the FAA, but thats ok because tere isnt actually anything out of the FAA to be protected from.

Folks will say that there will be FAA regs coming in the next year or two,
and they are right: THEN, in a year or two when the FAA actually makes some Model Airplane Regs, then you will want to see if those FAA regs are a burden on you, and you might want to comply with congress requirements to get congress' protection
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Old 03-07-2012, 06:14 PM
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RTK
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Not much will change concerning model aviation unless you do not want to follow a CBO's rules, guidelines and regs. If how ever you choose not to you must follow the FAA rules and regs proposed by them. This might include out fitting your air vehicle with avoidance/collision measures, altitude and corridor restrictions, maybe even IFR pilots license.
yes
but also consider the [link=http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/fb.asp?m=10904800]info we got from the FAA in Ontario.[/link]
All this talk about the FAA Reg CBO Protection from congress,
has just what bearing on the CBO exclusion from FAA regs by the FAA itself?
We were just having a discussion about how the FAA really dont want to require membership but just that anyone can follow a CBO standard to get FAA's cbo exclusion from its Default Path

Put that with what he got now, and-
Congress has created a protection from FAA regs for models operating within cbo programing.
But right now there are no FAA rules.regs that we need protecting from.
But even in the near future when FAA does come out with Model Regs, FAA is of the mind that ANYONE can use the CBO Standards Exclusion the faa has.

Folks want to say they dont know what WITHIN means when congress wrote it,
but regardless of that
we have had Silent Aviator telling us that FAA in Ontario was VERY clear that it DONT mean members-only' when the FAA says it. So even if congress dont protect non-members that use a cbo's rules, FAA semmed pretty vocal they THEY will give them cbo-standards-operators the cbo exemption (from the FAA regs that congress would have protected from)
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Old 03-07-2012, 06:39 PM
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Quote:
ORIGINAL: Top_Gunn



It will change for people flying within five miles of an airport, and that probably includes most of us (get a sectional chart for your area; you may be surprised). Unfortunately, we don't know what the changes will be. It may or may not change for people who don't join the AMA, not that I care much about them. The new law doesn't answer all our questions, but it answers some of them.

Quote:
ORIGINAL: JohnShe



Exactly, we are in violent agreement with each other. The lone ranger is on his own and I don't feel very sorry for him or her for that matter.

Actually, I have heard that the sUAS rules will include aircraft certification and pilot certification to very stringent and exacting standards. The process will be slow, arduous and hideously expensive.



"The lone ranger is on his own and I don't feel very sorry for him or her for that matter"

and


"not that I care much about them."

These very words epitomizes the problem I have with the average AMAer’s mindset... Out of one side of their mouth they proclaim an altruistic desire to promote model aviation but out of the other side of their mouth they say “AMA or no way”... to ell with them renegades... hypocrisy at it best!

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Old 03-07-2012, 06:52 PM
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ORIGINAL: littlecrankshaf


"The lone ranger is on his own and I don't feel very sorry for him or her for that matter"

and

"not that I care much about them."

These very words epitomizes the problem I have with the average AMAer’s mindset... Out of one side of their mouth they proclaim an altruistic desire to promote model aviation but out of the other side of their mouth they say “AMA or no way”... to ell with them renegades... hypocrisy at it best!
I guess you have a point. Our remarks are crass and inconsiderate. But, do you understand that these lone rangers don't want our help? That is why they are going it alone. If they want our help, all they have to do is join the club. And, quit whining about it.

We pooled our money through membership fees to set up safe welcoming airfields with a set of safety guidelines that protects everybody. Our airfields are in safe locations, wherever necessary we have arrangements with nearby airports. We have insurance to cover accidents. All you have to do is join the club and follow the rules. And you seem to say we should let the lone e rangers in for free. That ain't gonna happen buddy. Not on my watch.


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Old 03-07-2012, 06:59 PM
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so, would not it do more to further the AMA cause to leave those "crass and inconsiderate" words unspoken?
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Old 03-07-2012, 07:27 PM
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Quote:
ORIGINAL: JohnShe


Quote:
ORIGINAL: littlecrankshaf


"The lone ranger is on his own and I don't feel very sorry for him or her for that matter"

and

"not that I care much about them."

These very words epitomizes the problem I have with the average AMAer’s mindset... Out of one side of their mouth they proclaim an altruistic desire to promote model aviation but out of the other side of their mouth they say “AMA or no way”... to ell with them renegades... hypocrisy at it best!
I guess you have a point. Our remarks are crass and inconsiderate. But, do you understand that these lone rangers don't want our help? That is why they are going it alone. If they want our help, all they have to do is join the club. And, quit whining about it.

We pooled our money through membership fees to set up safe welcoming airfields with a set of safety guidelines that protects everybody. Our airfields are in safe locations, wherever necessary we have arrangements with nearby airports. We have insurance to cover accidents. All you have to do is join the club and follow the rules. And you seem to say we should let the lone e rangers in for free. That ain't gonna happen buddy. Not on my watch.


While we dont know how the rules will read when published but it looks like the FAA is going to force many modelers to join the AMA in order to avoid restrictions
on their activitys. However by forcing people to join the AMAsome might ask is that something the govt should be doing whats next if you want hunt or fish will
there be a org you forced to join?
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Old 03-07-2012, 07:36 PM
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ORIGINAL: ira d


if you want hunt or fish will
there be a org you forced to join?

No that is already covered with government mandated licenses and tags No CBO's need apply
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Old 03-07-2012, 08:06 PM
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Quote:
ORIGINAL: ira d


While we dont know how the rules will read when published but it looks like the FAA is going to force many modelers to join the AMA in order to avoid restrictions
on their activitys.
It is astounding how many relatively intelligent people I have talked to over the years that seem to think a license is needed or laws understood to fly model aircraft... This situation is certain to get worse...





Quote:
ORIGINAL: ira d



However by forcing people to join the AMA some might ask is that something the govt should be doing whats next if you want hunt or fish will
there be a org you forced to join?
I see this trend continuing to the point it won’t be an issue...as the government will need to take care of society from cradle to grave in the future... We have become dependent on government authority for everything. Laws will have to be re-written to tell us what we can do instead of what can’t be done... people are already afraid to do much of anything now...and that is our real problem going forward.

Responsibility and accountability is slowly getting lost in a whirlpool... err cesspool... of laws and codependency fragmenting the “individual” concept that made us real Americans. Schools look like prisons now and most kids must wear uniforms...we have lost it!

So, no need to teach fishing anymore...just feed the masses Soylent Green instead...everyone will be just fine... "AMA up" and become part of the future...quit kicking and screaming already
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Old 03-07-2012, 08:30 PM
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ORIGINAL: RTK

Quote:
ORIGINAL: ira d


if you want hunt or fish will
there be a org you forced to join?

No that is already covered with government mandated licenses and tags No CBO's need apply
I dont have a problem so much withagovt mandated license for certain things if the govt is who isissuing the license. But when the govt says you have to be a member
of a certain org in order to do somthing that a whole different thing.
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Old 03-07-2012, 08:38 PM
  #722
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I still believe we are being over regulated and over legislated in most of what we do from big brother
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Old 03-07-2012, 09:42 PM
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IRA
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While we dont know how the rules will read when published but it looks like the FAA is going to force many modelers to join the AMA in order to avoid restrictions
on their activitys.
what new FAA info have you seen
that changed your understanding of what FAA is doing
since 1/14/2012 9:53 PM , when you typed this-
Quote:
If the so called default path is going to be to restrictive in other words it will stop many modelers from contuining to enjoy the hobby as they are presently are
then that in effect will force many modelers to adhere to the new standards. So it really is quite simple if the FAA is going force a lot of modelers to adapt some
standard then that standard should be available at no charge.
How is it just 6 weeks ago we all got a better understanding of just what will be in the NPRM,
and it was clear to everyone that nonmembers could use cbo's standards to appease the FAA,
and now folks just throw all that understanding out the window?

IRA,
just 6 weeks ago you understood the FAA's position on Non-Member Use Of CBO Standards,
what new info changed your mind on what the FAA is doing?
(cause this congress bill says NOTHING about what the FAA is doing with their regs)
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Old 03-07-2012, 09:50 PM
  #724
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Default RE: Regulation passed the House


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ORIGINAL: JohnShe
I guess you have a point. Our remarks are crass and inconsiderate. But, do you understand that these lone rangers don't want our help? That is why they are going it alone. If they want our help, all they have to do is join the club. And, quit whining about it.

We pooled our money through membership fees to set up safe welcoming airfields with a set of safety guidelines that protects everybody. Our airfields are in safe locations, wherever necessary we have arrangements with nearby airports. We have insurance to cover accidents. All you have to do is join the club and follow the rules. And you seem to say we should let the lone e rangers in for free. That ain't gonna happen buddy. Not on my watch.





[/quote]

It is clear that the AMA can do no wrong in your eyes. Try beating your chest as you chew on this! http://www.ccrcc.info/main/index.php...d=5&id=422#422
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Old 03-07-2012, 10:06 PM
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Default RE: Regulation passed the House

Extra,
thats an intersting point- AMA cant be wrong.
What about when they say stuff that Silent repeated for us-
Quote:
http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/fb.asp?m=10906686 1/13/2012

... What I have been doing is merely reporting what I have seen, heard, and read. The AMA AND FAA people at the seminar said in clear, plain English that AMA membership will not be required in order to use the AMA standard for compliance. I did not say it, I merely repeated it. To me that seems to mean that AMA membership will not be required in order to use the AMA standard for compliance with the FAA rule.
huh,
guess if the AMA said it, it must be true, right?
membership will not be required
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