Top_Gunn

My Feedback: (6)

What a great idea! Trouble is, in my county (and I'd bet yours is similar) there are 13 airports. Draw a five-mile circle around each of them and you've got just over 1200 square miles. That's almost three times the area of the whole county, though of course many of the circles will overlap some. And since flying sites in the cities or suburbs are not safe or practical, and cities and suburbs take up at least half the space in the county. there are unlikely to be any flying sites not within five miles of somebody's airport. As for seeking "the airport manager," most of these airports are backyard strips, so the "airport manager" is the guy who owns it. If he doesn't like modelers, too bad. The FAA's proposal of allowing any airport owner to veto flying within five miles of the airport may well kill off RC if it isn't stopped. Even if you can find a site, would it make sense to develop it if the farmer down the road can shut you down just by putting in a runway?

The AMA's three mile rule probably did little harm, mostly because people interpreted it as applying only to the kinds of airports with paved runways, or at least those with a reasonable amount of full-scale traffic, and just ignored the people with "airports" too small to even appear on the sectional charts. And also because a three-mile circle is only about a quarter of the area of a five-mile circle. Alas, five now seems to be the magic number because it appears in the law that was supposedly going to protect us.

Another question (to which I don't know the answer) is do you measure the five miles from the airport center (just where is that, anyway), or is it to the boundary of the airport?

Hossfly

Mr. Gunn, you do seem to have a problem. Unfortunately you and your fellow RCers need to sit down with an aviation-attorney and determine your position until the AMA finally gets things done in their fight with the FAA. Now I do not at this time have all the answers to your specified problems. Would it hurt to send your specifics to the current AMA Executive Director, President and Executive Vice President and request solid answers to those items you specified in your above post, #226 ? They should now have all the answers. The current ED was a Fixed Base Operator for years. He should be very current with those questions of yours..

It's been a long time since I was driving an airplane. When I was, I was rated for Airline Transport, which contains Instrument and Type ratings. At this time, I am of the opinion that the calls are for airports with an Air Traffic Control operator. I don't think that your so-called "...backyard strips..." have such. Any traffic would have to be airborne, VFR, prior to picking up an IFR clearance while maintaining VFR conditions. That would take some time, a currently IFR rated pilot, and My bet is also that those farmer strip pilots are mostly VFR-only rated. Correct me if I am wrong, but the problem ATC rule is not a problem for Non - Air-Traffic-Control operations.

As I stated it's been some years since I retired and set the parking brake the last time. Hopefully 41 years of driving airplanes left a couple items. Good Luck!
If I should get elected, then I will do much better.

Top_Gunn

My Feedback: (6)

It's clear that this is not the case. Section 336 says that modelers must notify the airport operator and, if there is ATC, ATC. The FAA's "interpretation" also says modelers must notify the airport operator "and, where applicable," ATC. There is no way to read these as saying that only airports with traffic control have to be notified.

This isn't just my problem, it's everybody's problem. Do you know how many airports there are in Montgomery County, Texas? There are 13. Are you confident that your field isn't within five miles of an airport?

cj_rumley

It's what FAA has been saying since AC 91-57 was published. Nothing new about what an airport is in FAA usage. What has changed as a result of 336 as I see it is:

1. The date for implementing the change of the perimeter from 3 mi radius to 5 has moved up, as it otherwise probably wouldn't have happened before the sUAS regs were published. That it will change is no surprise, AMA has known about FAA intentions to change it for years.

2. It is now the law, rather than an advisory. I have mixed feelings about that......bad actors like Pirker, and AMA as well, have dissed the AC as 'advisory only, not required,' FAA seems to be saying 'okay, if we have to make it regs to get your attention, you got it.'

3. AMA interprets FAA interpretation to infer 'permission' required from operator or ATC. How failing to reach an agreement with the FS airport weenies differs from not having 'permission' isn't clear to me, but that's okay - there will be no lack of argument over that to learn from.

cj

MajorTomski

In Oklahoma City, the 5 mile ruling has now affected 7 of 8 flying field now fall within 5 miles


The FAA has for decades defined the air traffic area around ALL airports controlled and non-controlled, public and private as a five statute mile radius around the geographic center of the airport.

Hossfly

Thanks much Top__ Gunn, for the upgrade to my feeble knowledge. In truth, I don't know about Montgomery County, nor even Liberty County where my main club is. I will get with Pat and Mark very soon about that for Liberty Co. Maybe a check for Polk Co. since I belong to a Club there also.
I suppose I best also get familiar with that Sec. 336. Thanks for your help.

ira d

Nothing wrong with a airport being notified that a model flying site is within five miles of them but there is no reason for the airport to
be notified on a daily basis. Also there is no reason for the airport being able to deny flying at any rc site just because it is in a five
mile radius. If the rc site is on airport property that should be the only reason the airport can order flying to cease IMO.

Top_Gunn

My Feedback: (6)

I know that. But will they define it that way when limiting modeling activity? I don't think we can assume that. Some of the rules they have proposed in their "interpretation" are more stringent for modelers than for full-scale aviation. For example, full-scale planes routinely fly closer than five (or three) miles from small private airports (and even some larger ones) without notifying anyone, let alone getting permission. Furthermore, I'm not at all sure how you'd locate the "geographic center" of an "airport" consisting of somebody's backyard airstrip. Is the guy's whole farm the "airport"? Just the runway? Who knows? Very few of these "airports" are even shown on any kind of map. To use my county as an example, again, only two of the thirteen airports are shown on the sectional chart. Only one appears on any of the road maps I've seen (although the hospitals, which like most hospitals are airports in the FAA's view because helicopters land there do). (And one of those two may have closed. Its owner died several years ago, although the FAA web site still shows him as the contact person. Notifying dead people is hard, but the good news is they are unlikely to object to your flying within five miles of their airport.)

MajorTomski

Yes, the 5-statute mile airspace definition has been with us for decades. it’s more work and a complex for them to create a new definition that doesn’t fit the above.

Based on what? Are you a pilot? Have you had ASI, Aviation Safety Inspector training? Your question is a what if..

Because the pilots are trained on how to handle those situations; RC flyers are not. That 5-mile radius is also only good up to 2,500 feet AGL. So yes a 1:1 plane can fly closer than 5 miles from an airport so long as it’s 2.501 feet above the airport.

You don’t have to locate the center, it’s already done for you; if they are in the FAA’s database: (https://www.faa.gov/air_traffic/flig...products/dafd/) then they are an airport and more than not they will also be on a VFR sectional (map) https://www.faa.gov/air_traffic/flig..._products/vfr/
If they don’t show up in either source then they are not an airport and do not have the airspace protection provided to airports by the FAA and the law.

So, according to that sectional, if it is current, then there are only two ‘legal’ airports in your county. And they are the only ones you need to be concerned with.

The FAA doesn't use road maps and no, only hospitals with registered helipads are airports.

Wait, I’m confused; you know how to use the FAA database to find the owner of one airport but you can’t do that for the other airports in your county? And if he’s dead and still listed as the owner, then if you know how to use the database then you may have noticed the “Please report any application errors to: [email protected]” at the front of the database. Send them an email and tell them.

You seemed awfully concerned about a lot of hypothetical situations.

phlpsfrnk

Thank you MajorTom,
You beat me to an almost duplicate response. The only thing I might add is a link to the AIM;

http://www.faa.gov/air_traffic/publi.../AIM/index.htm

If more AMA members took a basic ground school course or read the AIM I think a lot of this confusion and misinterpretations could be avoided.

Frank

Sport_Pilot

It is not a requirement so most won't go and those not in the AMA will never know these rules. Making up a bunch of new rules will not in and of itself, solve anything.

Top_Gunn

My Feedback: (6)

Major Tomski;

I'm not going to respond to all of your points, but a couple of your errors are worth a comment. First, assuming that a definition used for one purpose will be used everywhere else is just foolish. I agree with you that it's likely the FAA will use the "geographic center" definition. But insisting that it's certain is absurd. As I pointed out before, The FAA is treating modelers differently than full-scale pilots in a number of ways. So, if they want to, they could do it here, too, especially when you consider that there's really no good way to know what the geographic center of some farmer's backyard airstrip is. Second, it is just plain wrong to say, as you do, that we need to be concerned only with the airports that are shown on the sectional charts. It makes no sense to say that these are the only "legal" airports. The FAA web site lists thirteen airports in my county. Only two of them are shown on the sectional chart. Section 336, the FAA's "interpretation," and the AMA safety code all refer to "airports," with no indication that this is limited to those airports that are shown on the sectional charts. Third, it is absurd to say, as you do, that a 1:1 aircraft can fly within five miles of an airport only if it is more than 2501 feet above the airport. All but one of the 13 airports in my county are in Class G airspace. 1001 feet AGL is enough. How would a full-scale pilot even know that these airports are there? Finally, I know the FAA doesn't use road maps. I never claimed they did. I mentioned them because I was pointing out the difficulty modelers will face in finding out whether their flying sites are within five miles of an airport. Because most of these airports are not shown on any map, it won't be easy. The fact that the FAA doesn't use road maps has nothing to do with that issue. Your making this silly comment suggests that you are just nitpicking, and not interested in a serious discussion of an important issue.

I'm not making these points for the fun of it. The FAA's "interpretation" of section 336 can potentially make it illegal to fly at hundreds, perhaps thousands, of model airplane flying fields. Pretending that this is not a serious problem won't make it go away.

Top_Gunn

My Feedback: (6)

No harm in knowing these rules. But they are not the rules that are threatening us. The FAA's "interpretation" of section 336 is the danger. Reading the AIM won't tell us much about that. Indeed, about their only relevance that I know about is that the FAA seems to want to outlaw all modeling in Class B airspace, a proposal that the AMA says will shut down about 100 model airplane flying fields. Apart from that, though, the FAA's proposals for modelers don't have anything to do with anything in the AIM.

MajorTomski

Top Gunn for grins and giggles sake please identify the county you live in.


TIA.

Sport_Pilot

Only a few days left to make comments to the interpretation, not sure if I made as detailed comment about the 5 mile rule as I should have. Can you make additional comments?

phlpsfrnk

If it is not shown on a sectional chart and listed in an airport directory you need not worry about it. If it is listed in the airport directory it is listed with a Latitude and longitude and that by difinition is the geographic center of the airport, and yes modelers are being treated different. Flight in Class A, B, C & D airspace requires two way radio comminications. Class B & C airspace also requires a Mode C transponder. I doubt you want to be saddled with the same requiements as full-scale. I don't think it is to much to ask for a club to provide a simple notification of its location and operations.

Frank

Top_Gunn

My Feedback: (6)

Absolutely right. But it is too much (In my view, anyway) to give every airport operator the right to prohibit all model flying within a five-mile radius of the airport. And that is what the FAA says it intends to do. I don't object at all to modelers being treated differently. I do object to us being treated more harshly, as in needing Old MacDonald's permission to fly within five miles of the back 40 airstrip he uses three times a year, or maybe even never. You are almost certainly right that the latitude and longitude listed for an airport in the FAA's list will be the point the five miles will be measured from. I don't know how accurate those figures are. Does the FAA just take someone's word for these when they apply for a listing, or does someone with a GPS go there and check?

You, Major Tomski, and a lot of other people insist that we don't need to worry about airports not listed on sectional charts. What is the basis for this claim? The FAA maintains a list of what it calls "airports:" Only a small percentage of these are shown on the sectional charts. Then it issues a proposal that refers to "airports," not just to "airports shown on the sectional chart. To me, the most natural way to read the proposal is to read it as applying to all the airports on the list, not just to the handful shown on the sectional charts. I hope I'm wrong. But nothing in the language of the proposal gives me a lot of hope.

Sport_Pilot

It may well end up that way but not on your say so, and the FAA seems to be leaning against that.

Top_Gunn

My Feedback: (6)

You go first. The FAA lists 22 airports in Oklahoma County. How many of these appear on the sectional chart?

MTK

Hhmmm, sounds like the airports are within 5 miles of each other in some cases in Montgomery Cty. Appears that there aren't such rules that govern full size aviation's proximity to itself?? Something's fish.....

littlecrankshaf

My Feedback: (58)

Now, now...we all know that full scale has preemptive privileges on their pursuits of life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness LOL

So don't be so pissy...

MajorTomski

Happy to, care to site the list your working from or do I have to guess at that too?

Top_Gunn

My Feedback: (6)

Airport contact information list: Since that's what the subject of this thread is, it wouldn't be all that hard a guess, would it?

https://www.faa.gov/airports/airport...portdata_5010/

MajorTomski

I'm sorry I was using the FAA airport directory, the one I linked to in my post above. The one that shows ACTIVE airports.

Of the 22 'airports' listed in your site only 7 are airports the balance of them are helipads at hospitals, oil companies or the Governors' mansion. Of the 7 airports on the site six in Oklahoma county show up on the sectional, three, all sod strips of around 2500 feet long do not., but neither do they show up in the airport directory, so they aren't legally airports. If I landed my C-182 at one of them my insurance company would consider an accident at any of them to be an 'off airport' landing.


As to your other allegations, I give up you win, you 've made up your mind and it is you that has absolutely no desire to discuss facts, or change your mind. I'm done.

Top_Gunn

My Feedback: (6)

You're saying that places aircraft take off from and land on, which the FAA calls "airports," and for which it gives "airport contact information" and "airport reference point coordinates" "aren't legally airports"? Strange notion of legality. Especially as it's the FAA's view of what an airport is that matters here.

I hope the FAA adopts your view of what an airport is, or even a more restrictive view. But to claim that they can't or won't do that, without giving a reason other than a meaningless claim that they "aren't legally airports," is unpersuasive.

I don't know what you mean by my "other allegations." Are you still maintaining that full-scale airplanes have to stay over 2500 feet AGL within five miles of all airports? I'd really like to see a cite for that one.


Update: I'd like to correct a statement I made in a previous comment. The airport reference point coordinates in the FAA's contact information link to Google Maps. So you can get this info on a map. The first one I tried turns out to be less than a mile and a half from my house. I had no idea it was there, and I've lived here for 25 years. Guess I'll have to call the guy when I fly my little electric helicopter in the back yard.
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