Register

If this is your first visit, please click the Sign Up now button to begin the process of creating your account so you can begin posting on our forums! The Sign Up process will only take up about a minute of two of your time.

Page 1 of 9 123 ... LastLast
Results 1 to 25 of 209

  1. #1
    phlpsfrnk's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Spring Hill, FL
    Posts
    529
    Gallery
    My Gallery
    Models
    My Models
    Ratings
    My Feedback

    Club letter to local airports within five miles

    I recently drafted a letter to our club’s local airport authority and thought it would be helpful to other clubs in the same situation. The attached .pdf file is free for anyone to use. If anyone is interested in and would like a .doc, .rtf or .txt file, PM me with an e-mail address and the file type you require and I will provide if possible.

    Regards
    Frank
    Attached Files Attached Files
    It is not possible to write in such a way that cannot be misinterpreted by a reader determined to do so.

  2. #2

    Join Date
    May 2003
    Location
    Moreno Valley, CA
    Posts
    2,293
    Gallery
    My Gallery
    Models
    My Models
    Ratings
    My Feedback

    RE: Club letter to local airports within five miles

    Would not it be better to wait untill the AMA gives the go ahead to contact the airports and also see what is actually in the new FAA and AMA
    rules first?
    Ira d

  3. #3
    Silent-AV8R's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Location
    Orange County, CA
    Posts
    4,838
    Gallery
    My Gallery
    Models
    My Models
    Ratings
    My Feedback

    RE: Club letter to local airports within five miles

    The AMA has specifically recommended NOT contacting local airports etc. until the sUAS rules and how the new law will operate are better understood.

    Q: Now that the FAA reauthorization bill is signed into law, should we start contacting the airport/ATC when operating within five (5) miles of a public airport and should clubs begin establishing operating agreements for established flying sites in this region?

    A: No, at least not yet.

    There are still a lot of unanswered questions regarding how the MA provision in the Bill will be enacted and what oversight authority the FAA will continue to have on us. There is no doubt that the FAA is tasked with maintaining the safety of the NAS and we will need to come to an understanding as to what criteria the AMA member will need to follow in order to operate within the national airspace in the future. As such, it’s probably a little too soon to start reacting to the criteria established in the model aircraft provision in the Bill. AMA will be working directly with the FAA in establishing procedures for setting up these agreements; however, this will take some time and it will likely take several weeks, if not a few months, to iron out all the details.

    For now I would suggest business as usual and continue your site operations in accordance with the AMA Safety Code as you have in the past. If you already have an agreement in place then certainly continue to operate under the provisions of that agreement. However if you currently fall within five (5) miles of a public airport and you don’t yet have an agreement, unless approached for some reason by the airport or ATC, it’s recommended you hold off on pursuing an agreement until the AMA is able to provide a form and format for doing so.

    As it stands, it’s unlikely there will be an impetus for an established agreement until the issues surrounding the proposed sUAS rule are resolved later this year; however, if you do get approached by the airport authority or someone from the FAA, please contact the AMA for assistance.
    http://amablog.modelaircraft.org/ama...ive-mile-rule/
    Team Futaba - RClipos.com

  4. #4
    TimJ's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Location
    Orange County CA
    Posts
    375
    Gallery
    My Gallery
    Models
    My Models
    Ratings
    My Feedback

    RE: Club letter to local airports within five miles

    Frank, It may be best to wait on that letter.

    But if you insist heres a little constructive advice. Mailing that letter to the Airport Manager is a waste of your time and will get you nowhere. The Airport Manager does not control the Air Space. Your letter would be best mailed to the ATC Manager of your local airport.

    Tim Johnson
    District X AVP

  5. #5
    KidEpoxy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Location
    San Antonio, TX
    Posts
    6,681
    Gallery
    My Gallery
    Models
    My Models
    Ratings
    My Feedback

    RE: Club letter to local airports within five miles

    Frank

    you could start referring to that legislative text as
    Public Law 112-95: FAA Modernization and Reform Act of 2012
    rather than a bill


    http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/bdquery/z?d112:h.r.658:

    Latest Major Action: Became Public Law No: 112-95 [GPO: Text, PDF]

  6. #6

    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    Round Hill, VA
    Posts
    757
    Gallery
    My Gallery
    Models
    My Models
    Ratings
    My Feedback

    RE: Club letter to local airports within five miles


    ORIGINAL: Silent-AV8R

    The AMA has specifically recommended NOT contacting local airports etc. until the sUAS rules and how the new law will operate are better understood.

    Q: Now that the FAA reauthorization bill is signed into law, should we start contacting the airport/ATC when operating within five (5) miles of a public airport and should clubs begin establishing operating agreements for established flying sites in this region?

    A: No, at least not yet.

    There are still a lot of unanswered questions regarding how the MA provision in the Bill will be enacted and what oversight authority the FAA will continue to have on us. There is no doubt that the FAA is tasked with maintaining the safety of the NAS and we will need to come to an understanding as to what criteria the AMA member will need to follow in order to operate within the national airspace in the future. As such, it’s probably a little too soon to start reacting to the criteria established in the model aircraft provision in the Bill. AMA will be working directly with the FAA in establishing procedures for setting up these agreements; however, this will take some time and it will likely take several weeks, if not a few months, to iron out all the details.

    For now I would suggest business as usual and continue your site operations in accordance with the AMA Safety Code as you have in the past. If you already have an agreement in place then certainly continue to operate under the provisions of that agreement. However if you currently fall within five (5) miles of a public airport and you don’t yet have an agreement, unless approached for some reason by the airport or ATC, it’s recommended you hold off on pursuing an agreement until the AMA is able to provide a form and format for doing so.

    As it stands, it’s unlikely there will be an impetus for an established agreement until the issues surrounding the proposed sUAS rule are resolved later this year; however, if you do get approached by the airport authority or someone from the FAA, please contact the AMA for assistance.
    http://amablog.modelaircraft.org/ama...ive-mile-rule/

    Absolutely correct. Do not act until the AMA and the FAA have published and enacted a specific process for notifying airports. Be patient, you don't have to do anything right now.


  7. #7
    littlecrankshaf's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2001
    Location
    here
    Posts
    4,712
    Gallery
    My Gallery
    Models
    My Models
    Ratings
    My Feedback

    RE: Club letter to local airports within five miles


    ORIGINAL: ira d

    Would not it be better to wait untill the AMA gives the go ahead to contact the airports and also see what is actually in the new FAA and AMA
    rules first?
    Nah... Just go ahead and kick the lying dog.. Best to be proactive.
    It is very important to understand that Jesus not only died for our sins but died because of our sins...even harder to understand now, exactly what were those sins???

  8. #8
    phlpsfrnk's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Spring Hill, FL
    Posts
    529
    Gallery
    My Gallery
    Models
    My Models
    Ratings
    My Feedback

    RE: Club letter to local airports within five miles


    ORIGINAL: Silent-AV8R

    The AMA has specifically recommended NOT contacting local airports etc. until the sUAS rules and how the new law will operate are better understood.

    Q: Now that the FAA reauthorization bill is signed into law, should we start contacting the airport/ATC when operating within five (5) miles of a public airport and should clubs begin establishing operating agreements for established flying sites in this region?

    A: No, at least not yet.

    There are still a lot of unanswered questions regarding how the MA provision in the Bill will be enacted and what oversight authority the FAA will continue to have on us. There is no doubt that the FAA is tasked with maintaining the safety of the NAS and we will need to come to an understanding as to what criteria the AMA member will need to follow in order to operate within the national airspace in the future. As such, it’s probably a little too soon to start reacting to the criteria established in the model aircraft provision in the Bill. AMA will be working directly with the FAA in establishing procedures for setting up these agreements; however, this will take some time and it will likely take several weeks, if not a few months, to iron out all the details.

    For now I would suggest business as usual and continue your site operations in accordance with the AMA Safety Code as you have in the past. If you already have an agreement in place then certainly continue to operate under the provisions of that agreement. However if you currently fall within five (5) miles of a public airport and you don’t yet have an agreement, unless approached for some reason by the airport or ATC, it’s recommended you hold off on pursuing an agreement until the AMA is able to provide a form and format for doing so.

    As it stands, it’s unlikely there will be an impetus for an established agreement until the issues surrounding the proposed sUAS rule are resolved later this year; however, if you do get approached by the airport authority or someone from the FAA, please contact the AMA for assistance.
    http://amablog.modelaircraft.org/ama...ive-mile-rule/
    Silent,
    I missed that posting. In our club’s case the county that issues our special use permit for the field we are operating out of also requires that we notify the airport of our location and this has been in effect for a couple of years now. I have also sent copies of this to Rich Hanson and I recently received a very nice reply reiterating the same you have stated here. My intent was to provide a somewhat comprehensive form letter to save club secretaries some labor in drafting their own letters.

    Regards
    Frank
    It is not possible to write in such a way that cannot be misinterpreted by a reader determined to do so.

  9. #9
    phlpsfrnk's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Spring Hill, FL
    Posts
    529
    Gallery
    My Gallery
    Models
    My Models
    Ratings
    My Feedback

    RE: Club letter to local airports within five miles


    ORIGINAL: TimJ

    Frank, It may be best to wait on that letter.

    But if you insist heres a little constructive advice. Mailing that letter to the Airport Manager is a waste of your time and will get you nowhere. The Airport Manager does not control the Air Space. Your letter would be best mailed to the ATC Manager of your local airport.

    Tim Johnson
    District X AVP
    Tim,
    No problem with constructive advice and I will check into who best to send this to. In our case as I explained to Silent above we have had this requirement for some time and in my club's case the airport is not a towered airport at this time and the airport administration lists the airport manager. There is no listing for an ATC Manager but I agree he should likely be the addressee if he were listed.

    Regards
    Frank
    It is not possible to write in such a way that cannot be misinterpreted by a reader determined to do so.

  10. #10

    Join Date
    Jul 2003
    Location
    Bowling Green, KY
    Posts
    2,487
    Gallery
    My Gallery
    Models
    My Models
    Ratings
    My Feedback

    RE: Club letter to local airports within five miles

    If the airport already knows where you are, I'd let sleeping dogs lie for the time being. Dennis
    DadstoysRC. I fly what I sell
    CD Vette City Big Bird

  11. #11
    Sport_Pilot's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2002
    Location
    Acworth, GA
    Posts
    13,361
    Gallery
    My Gallery
    Models
    My Models
    Ratings
    My Feedback

    RE: Club letter to local airports within five miles

    Well then if the law is in effect you cannot fly a model plane from your field till the FAA rep for that airport is notified. I am not sure the AMA is giving good advise unless they act before the law takes effect.
    Glow Head Brotherhood #15

  12. #12

    Join Date
    Jul 2003
    Location
    Bowling Green, KY
    Posts
    2,487
    Gallery
    My Gallery
    Models
    My Models
    Ratings
    My Feedback

    RE: Club letter to local airports within five miles

    Spot pilot you missed his post that the airport already knows where they are. Why do it again? Dennis
    DadstoysRC. I fly what I sell
    CD Vette City Big Bird

  13. #13
    Sport_Pilot's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2002
    Location
    Acworth, GA
    Posts
    13,361
    Gallery
    My Gallery
    Models
    My Models
    Ratings
    My Feedback

    RE: Club letter to local airports within five miles

    Maybe they know about the day to day operations.  But for every event?  Not that this is the requirement, but I think it better to inform them of every contest or fun fly event.  Barbeques excepted of course.
    Glow Head Brotherhood #15

  14. #14

    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    Round Hill, VA
    Posts
    757
    Gallery
    My Gallery
    Models
    My Models
    Ratings
    My Feedback

    RE: Club letter to local airports within five miles


    ORIGINAL: Sport_Pilot

    Well then if the law is in effect you cannot fly a model plane from your field till the FAA rep for that airport is notified. I am not sure the AMA is giving good advise unless they act before the law takes effect.
    While the appropriations bill has gone into effect and the FAA is spending the money they have been given. S336 cannot go into effect until the procedures for airport notification are written and approved. this will require coordination between the CBO (whoever that is) and the FAA as specified in the language of the appropriations bill. In the meantime do as the AMAsays and sit on it. Everything will be OK. The airports are doing the same thing, because they don't know what to do either. You cannot possibly get into trouble until an official procedure is published and you are given a deadline to meet it.






  15. #15
    Tailspin's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2001
    Location
    Snohomish, WA
    Posts
    91
    Gallery
    My Gallery
    Models
    My Models
    Ratings
    My Feedback

    RE: Club letter to local airports within five miles

    OP wrote "In our club’s case the county that issues our special use permit for the field we are operating out of also requires that we notify the airport of our location and this has been in effect for a couple of years now."

    Sounds like a local government issue and nothing to do with FAA or AMA.

  16. #16

    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    Round Hill, VA
    Posts
    757
    Gallery
    My Gallery
    Models
    My Models
    Ratings
    My Feedback

    RE: Club letter to local airports within five miles


    ORIGINAL: Tailspin

    OP wrote "In our club’s case the county that issues our special use permit for the field we are operating out of also requires that we notify the airport of our location and this has been in effect for a couple of years now."

    Sounds like a local government issue and nothing to do with FAA or AMA.
    Well, local governments don't like the thought of full size airplanes crashing into homes and buildings and causing death and destruction. So they are going to stick the noses in whenever any risk of disaster. seems evident. I bet the first thing the airport authorities did was call the FAA for advice since the FAA is in charge of all airport operations.



  17. #17
    phlpsfrnk's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Spring Hill, FL
    Posts
    529
    Gallery
    My Gallery
    Models
    My Models
    Ratings
    My Feedback

    RE: Club letter to local airports within five miles


    ORIGINAL: Tailspin

    Sounds like a local government issue and nothing to do with FAA or AMA.
    Tailspin,
    you are correct in that this started out as a local government issue. Without going into boring details, several years ago we had a neighbor/real-estate developer that attempted to have us shut down. His attempt failed however in our presentation to the county board for our special use permit to continue operating some of the board members picked up on the mention of notifying local airport authorities that was in the AMA safety code at that time. This triggered the requirement in our special use permit to notify the airport which was done. Fast forward to today and we have a similar requirement only instead of being mandated by a local county board it is mandated by “Public Law 112-95: FAA Modernization and Reform Act of 2012”

    I believe in being proactive instead of reactive in these types of matters and I drafted the form letter that I presented to the AMA and here. I never submit a draft without full expectation of reviewers bleeding red ink on my draft such as the comments from TimJ and KidEpoxy above which by the way was appreciated.

    On the issue of “holding off” I received the following from Rich Hanson;
    “AMA is advising its chartered clubs to hold off on reacting to the MA provision in the bill, at least for now. We are suggesting business as usual and to continue your site operations in accordance with the AMA Safety Code as in the past. However, if you’ve already sent the letter and are working towards an agreement then certainly continue with that effort. If you haven’t sent the letter, it’s recommended you hold off on pursuing an agreement until the AMA is able to provide a form and format for doing so.”

    Rich also sent;
    “Thanks for the copy on your letter. I read the letter and the associated documents and it looks to be a very good approach to establishing an operating agreement with the local airport. I will certainly keep it on file as a reference.”

    I would like to publicly here thank Rich for his reply.
    In closing I would like to mention that as far as “sleeping dogs” are concerned that if it’s my guard dog on duty it had better not be sleeping.

    Regards
    Frank

    PS: Before anyone complains, I am not advocating the kicking of sleeping dogs.
    It is not possible to write in such a way that cannot be misinterpreted by a reader determined to do so.

  18. #18
    TimJ's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Location
    Orange County CA
    Posts
    375
    Gallery
    My Gallery
    Models
    My Models
    Ratings
    My Feedback

    RE: Club letter to local airports within five miles

    Good deal Frank.

    Tim Johnson
    AMA District X AVP

  19. #19
    Sport_Pilot's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2002
    Location
    Acworth, GA
    Posts
    13,361
    Gallery
    My Gallery
    Models
    My Models
    Ratings
    My Feedback

    RE: Club letter to local airports within five miles

    I bet the first thing the airport authorities did was call the FAA for advice since the FAA is in charge of all airport operations.
    I don't think the FAA is in charge of any airport operations, that is run by the airliners and local governments. The FAA is in charge of the airspace of many airports, that is they pay the controllers, but a lot of local governments and even corporations do that. The FAA has no control of the airspace above private airports below the lower boundries of aircraft minimum altitude, only those aircraft landing and taking off from the airport has rights to be there and the FAA has no control of that bit of sky.

    Glow Head Brotherhood #15

  20. #20

    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    Location
    Granger, IN
    Posts
    1,166
    Gallery
    My Gallery
    Models
    My Models
    Ratings
    My Feedback

    RE: Club letter to local airports within five miles


    ORIGINAL: Sport_Pilot

    Well then if the law is in effect you cannot fly a model plane from your field till the FAA rep for that airport is notified. I am not sure the AMA is giving good advise unless they act before the law takes effect.
    The law doesn't prohibit flying within five miles of an airport without notification, whether it has "gone into effect" or not. It prohibits the FAA from making rules about model airplanes if those planes meet certain requirements, one of which involves notifications to airports. As the FAA has not yet made any of those rules, nothing in the new law has yet had any effect on how we fly our models, and no notice of any kind to an airport will have any effect either.
    Al Gunn
    Ultra Sport Brotherhood No. 9

  21. #21
    phlpsfrnk's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Spring Hill, FL
    Posts
    529
    Gallery
    My Gallery
    Models
    My Models
    Ratings
    My Feedback

    RE: Club letter to local airports within five miles


    ORIGINAL: Top_Gunn

    The law doesn't prohibit flying within five miles of an airport without notification, whether it has ''gone into effect'' or not. It prohibits the FAA from making rules about model airplanes if those planes meet certain requirements, one of which involves notifications to airports. As the FAA has not yet made any of those rules, nothing in the new law has yet had any effect on how we fly our models, and no notice of any kind to an airport will have any effect either.
    Al,
    While I don’t disagree with your statement the FAA has ‘desired and advised’ that modelers notify local airports when in proximity to airport operations for over 30 years (Ref AC 91-57).

    “When flying (model) aircraft within 3 miles of an airport, notify the airport operator or when an air traffic facility is located at the airport, notify the control tower, or flight service station.”

    I have been a member of numerous clubs over the years that have had to deal with local full scale operations in various ways. Years ago I knew of a club in S. Cal when I was stationed there that had a direct phone line to the nearby control tower so positive communications/control was established whenever anyone was flying. I have made recommendations to the AMA to change the safety code to account for the FAA’s desires;

    http://www.modelaircraft.org/forums/tm.aspx?m=1073

    I think it is past time that clubs are provided with a form or template for dealing with an old issue that is getting a lot of new visibility because of the recent Public Law 112-95: FAA Modernization and Reform Act of 2012. The draft I provided can be used by any club, AMA chartered or not. With modification it might even be used by an individual that flies from a fixed field location. It was provided as a draft of something that I believe has been needed for a long time and if it makes the NAS safer why delay it?

    Regards
    Frank
    It is not possible to write in such a way that cannot be misinterpreted by a reader determined to do so.

  22. #22
    Sport_Pilot's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2002
    Location
    Acworth, GA
    Posts
    13,361
    Gallery
    My Gallery
    Models
    My Models
    Ratings
    My Feedback

    RE: Club letter to local airports within five miles



    The law doesn't prohibit flying within five miles of an airport without notification, whether it has "gone into effect" or not
    Seems it does if you don't want them to pass regulations.

    (a) In General- Notwithstanding any other provision of law relating to the incorporation of unmanned aircraft systems into Federal Aviation Administration plans and policies, including this subtitle, the Administrator of the Federal Aviation Administration may not promulgate any rule or regulation regarding a model aircraft, or an aircraft being developed as a model aircraft, if

    (5) when flown within 5 miles of an airport, the operator of the aircraft provides the airport operator and the airport air traffic control tower (when an air traffic facility is located at the airport) with prior notice of the operation (model aircraft operators flying from a permanent location within 5 miles of an airport should establish a mutually-agreed upon operating procedure with the airport operator and the airport air traffic control tower (when an air traffic facility is located at the airport)).

    Glow Head Brotherhood #15

  23. #23

    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    Location
    Granger, IN
    Posts
    1,166
    Gallery
    My Gallery
    Models
    My Models
    Ratings
    My Feedback

    RE: Club letter to local airports within five miles

    Seems it does if you don't want them to pass regulations.
    No. It says that, if they do pass regulations, they can't affect certain models. One of the provisions defining what those certain models are has to do with flying within five miles of an airport. Until the regulations are written, nothing in this law has any effect on anyone flying within five miles of an airport, or anywhere else for that matter. The only prohibition in section 336 is a prohibition on what the FAA can do.

    Does the new law impose a fine on people who fly within five miles of an airport? Does it say they will go to jail if they don't notify the airport first? Does it give the airport people the power to shut them down? Does it require any modeler to do anything? No. Nor does it keep the the FAA from passing regulations if people notify airports. It just makes rules about what the new regulations can cover. Those regulations, when they appear, may require some things of us, but until that day, we aren't required to do anything we didn't have to do last year.
    Al Gunn
    Ultra Sport Brotherhood No. 9

  24. #24
    phlpsfrnk's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Spring Hill, FL
    Posts
    529
    Gallery
    My Gallery
    Models
    My Models
    Ratings
    My Feedback

    RE: Club letter to local airports within five miles

    ORIGINAL: Top_Gunn

    Sport_Pilot
    Seems it does if you don't want them to pass regulations.
    No. It says that, if they do pass regulations, they can't affect certain models. One of the provisions defining what those certain models are has to do with flying within five miles of an airport. Until the regulations are written, nothing in this law has any effect on anyone flying within five miles of an airport, or anywhere else for that matter. The only prohibition in section 336 is a prohibition on what the FAA can do.

    Does the new law impose a fine on people who fly within five miles of an airport? Does it say they will go to jail if they don't notify the airport first? Does it give the airport people the power to shut them down? Does it require any modeler to do anything? No. Nor does it keep the the FAA from passing regulations if people notify airports. It just makes rules about what the new regulations can cover. Those regulations, when they appear, may require some things of us, but until that day, we aren't required to do anything we didn't have to do last year.
    Or the last 30 years in regards to proximity to an airports.

    Regards
    Frank
    It is not possible to write in such a way that cannot be misinterpreted by a reader determined to do so.

  25. #25
    KidEpoxy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Location
    San Antonio, TX
    Posts
    6,681
    Gallery
    My Gallery
    Models
    My Models
    Ratings
    My Feedback

    RE: Club letter to local airports within five miles

    The law doesn't prohibit flying within five miles of an airport without notification, whether it has "gone into effect" or not. It prohibits the FAA from making rules about model airplanes if those planes meet certain requirements, one of which involves notifications to airports.
    +1

    Sport, there is no requirement in Public Law 112-95 that MA must notify airports.
    There IS a protection from FAA regulations for folks that voluntarily choose to meet some conditions.




    Seems it does if you don't want them to pass regulations.
    ?????
    We all know the rules/regulations you are talking about will come to be
    (cant really say 'pass' since its an arbitrary administration rule/reg and not an elected rep vote to legislate)

    Those regs on toy airplanes will come to be,
    whether there is Public Law protections for some folks or not.

    The only difference is whether the FAA regs (that have FFA exclusion for CBOAltStandards)
    will have protection from congress that will exclude CBO modeling operations from being subject to those regs (that have FAA exclusion for AltStandards)


Page 1 of 9 123 ... LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  
All times are GMT -6. The time now is 03:20 PM.

SEO by vBSEO 3.6.1 ©2011, Crawlability, Inc.