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FPV SURVEY

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Old 07-04-2012, 06:54 PM
  #101
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Quote:
ORIGINAL: JohnShe


Quote:
ORIGINAL: TexasAirBoss

Are FPV drones/models required to maintain 500' seperation from people/structures ?
The FAA regulations have not been published yet, so we don't know what the regulations will say. Therefore there is no FAA answer to your question. The only answer right now is you can't fly anywhere without FAA approval, except at an AMA club field.

If you fly at an AMA club field you will be held accountable to the posted field rules and any applicable AMA policy.

If you choose to fly somewhere else, you are on your own. The jails should be full of people who cause property damage or injury by flying where they aren't supposed to.





I hate to disagree with you but what you say here is not true.
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Old 07-04-2012, 08:35 PM
  #102
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You can fly anywhere that there is no local ordinace against it or a temp flight restriction, and if not for hire (that gets real muddy). AMA is insurance only at this point and provides absolutly no protection other than monetary.
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Old 07-05-2012, 04:23 AM
  #103
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ORIGINAL: cfircav8r

You can fly anywhere that there is no local ordinace against it or a temp flight restriction, and if not for hire (that gets real muddy). AMA is insurance only at this point and provides absolutly no protection other than monetary.
True, as long as what you're flying is a model, which seems to mean line of sight though there are ambiguities. It would be illegal to fly FPV at 2000 feet without an airworthiness certificate (which you won't get) or some other form of permission from the FAA. The original question was, I think, about UAVs. Whether you are at an AMA field has nothing to do with the matter, to be sure.
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Old 07-05-2012, 04:49 AM
  #104
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Default RE: FPV SURVEY


Quote:
ORIGINAL: mongo

things may be in for some changing.

http://www.mercurynews.com/californi...one-helicopter

had to start in the peoples republic of kalifornia, of course. hope this don't go any further than the local news media.
CFR
Title 14
Part 91
Subpart B Flight Rules
91.119 Minimum safe altitudes;

Except when necessary for takeoff or landing, no person may operate an aircraft below the following altitudes:

(a) Anywhere. An altitude allowing, if a power unit fails, an emergency landing without undue hazard to persons or property on the surface.

(b) Over congested areas. Over any congested area of a city, town, or settlement, or over any open air assembly of persons, an altitude of 1,000 feet above the highest obstacle within a horizontal radius of 2,000 feet of the aircraft.

(c) Over other than congested areas. An altitude of 500 feet above the surface, except over open water or sparsely populated areas. In those cases, the aircraft may not be operated closer than 500 feet to any person, vessel, vehicle, or structure.


Some will argue that the above only applies to aircraft with souls on board. It appears the FAA is applying the minimum safe altitude rules in this case. Also the VFR terminal area chart for San Francisco states;
"All aircraft are requested to maintain minimum altitude of 2000 feet above the surface of the following:
National Parks, Monuments, Seashores, Recreation Areas and Scenic Riverways...etc."

"Hedrick was cited on suspicion of disturbing wildlife, operating aircraft within 500 feet of a boat dock, creating hazardous conditions and operating an aircraft within the Federal Aviation Administration-imposed closure of 2,000 feet above the island."

Regards
Frank
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Old 07-05-2012, 06:18 AM
  #105
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The FAA as well as most local govs. consider Model A/C flown for enjoyment as a hobby A/C. A/C flown for hire or for research is a UAS and will fall under more stringent rules, even now with the temp restrictions in place. The original statement that you are safe with the AMA and headed for jail without is where we disagreed, but as of right now there is no restriction on hobby A/C even though that is ending very soon. Alcatraz has many regulations around it and any one of a number of them can affect everything from boating to flying models around it, and the FAA need never get involved.
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Old 07-05-2012, 03:41 PM
  #106
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Quote:
ORIGINAL: warningshot


Quote:
ORIGINAL: JohnShe

Quote:
ORIGINAL: TexasAirBoss

Are FPV drones/models required to maintain 500' seperation from people/structures ?
The FAA regulations have not been published yet, so we don't know what the regulations will say. Therefore there is no FAA answer to your question. The only answer right now is you can't fly anywhere without FAA approval, except at an AMAclub field.

If you fly at an AMA club field you will be held accountable to the posted field rules and any applicable AMApolicy.

If you choose to fly somewhere else, you are on your own. The jails should be full of people who cause property damage or injury by flying where they aren't supposed to.
I hate to disagree with you but what you say here is not true.
Normally, at least in this forum, most of the time, when disagreement is expressed, a plausible (sometimes) reason is given for the disagreement. Therefore, I am asking you to tell me what you disagree with and why you disagree.

Let's discuss this like gentlemen.


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Old 07-05-2012, 04:13 PM
  #107
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Default RE: FPV SURVEY

Quote:
ORIGINAL: JohnShe


Quote:
ORIGINAL: warningshot


Quote:
ORIGINAL: JohnShe

Quote:
ORIGINAL: TexasAirBoss

Are FPV drones/models required to maintain 500' seperation from people/structures ?
The FAA regulations have not been published yet, so we don't know what the regulations will say. Therefore there is no FAA answer to your question. The only answer right now is you can't fly anywhere without FAA approval, except at an AMA club field.

If you fly at an AMA club field you will be held accountable to the posted field rules and any applicable AMA policy.

If you choose to fly somewhere else, you are on your own. The jails should be full of people who cause property damage or injury by flying where they aren't supposed to.
I hate to disagree with you but what you say here is not true.
Normally, at least in this forum, most of the time, when disagreement is expressed, a plausible (sometimes) reason is given for the disagreement. Therefore, I am asking you to tell me what you disagree with and why you disagree.

Let's discuss this like gentlemen.


How do you discuss something that has absolutely no basis in fact "like gentlemen"? Nothing in your post was accurate. End of discussion. Where do you get these "facts" that you post so often?
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Old 07-05-2012, 05:49 PM
  #108
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Here you go Al, here are some facts.

FACT SHEET
UNMANNED AIRCRAFT SYSTEMS (UAS)
Updated July 2011
Introduction
Unmanned Aircraft Systems (UAS) come in a variety of shapes and sizes and serve diverse purposes. They may have a wingspan as large as a Boeing 737 or be smaller than a radio-controlled model aircraft. A designated pilot in command is always in control of a UAS.
Historically, UAS have mainly supported military and security operations overseas, with training occurring in the United States. In addition, UAS are utilized in U.S. border and port surveillance by the Department of Homeland Security, scientific research and environmental monitoring by NASA and NOAA, public safety by law enforcement agencies, research by state universities, and various other uses by public (government) agencies. Interest is growing in civil uses, including commercial photography, aerial mapping, crop monitoring, advertising, communications and broadcasting. Unmanned aircraft systems may increase efficiency, save money, enhance safety, and even save lives.
In the United States alone, approximately 50 companies, universities, and government organizations are developing and producing over 155 unmanned aircraft designs.
The FAA’s Role: Safety First
The FAA’s main concern about UAS operations in the National Airspace System (NAS) is safety. The NAS encompasses an average of more than 100,000 aviation operations per day, including air carrier, air taxi, general aviation, and military aircraft. There are approximately 18,000 air carrier aircraft and 230,000 active general aviation aircraft in the U.S. It is critical that UAS do not endanger current users of the NAS, including manned and other unmanned aircraft, or compromise the safety of persons or property on the ground.
In addition to recreational use of UAS by modelers, there are two acceptable means of operating UAS in the NAS outside of “restricted” airspace: Special Airworthiness Certificates in the Experimental Category (SAC-EC) and Certificates of Waiver or Authorization (COA).
Model Aircraft
Recreational use of the NAS is covered by FAA Advisory Circular (AC) 91-57, which generally limits operations to below 400 feet above ground level and away from airports and air traffic.
Experimental UAS
An SAC-EC is the only certification means available to civil operators for UAS and optionally-piloted aircraft (OPA). Due to regulatory requirements, this approval precludes carrying persons or property for compensation or hire, but does allow operations for research and development, market survey, and crew training.
Since July 2005, the FAA has issued 94 SAC-EC, to 13 civil operators covering 20 unique UAS and OPA types. The FAA works with these operators to collect technical and operational data to improve the UAS airworthiness certification process.
Public UAS
The COA process is available to public entities, including military, law enforcement, and other governmental agencies who want to fly a UAS in civil airspace. Applicants apply online and the FAA evaluates the request. The FAA issues a COA generally based on the following principles:

The COA authorizes an operator to use defined airspace and includes special provisions unique to the proposed operation. For instance, a COA may include a requirement to operate only under Visual Flight Rules (VFR) and/or only during daylight hours. Most COAs are issued for a specified time period (up to one year, in most cases).

Most COAs require coordination with an appropriate air traffic control facility and may require the UAS to have a transponder to operate in certain types of airspace.

Due to the inability of UAS to comply with “see and avoid” rules as manned aircraft operations do, a visual observer or an accompanying “chase” aircraft must maintain visual contact with the UAS and serve as its “eyes” when operating outside of airspace that is restricted from other users.
The FAA issued 146 COAs in 2009 and 298 in 2010, more than doubling in one year. As of June 28, 2011, there were 251 active COAs, 90 different proponents, and 77 different aircraft types.
Civil UAS (Future Operations)
With the proposed small UAS Rule (described below) and the update to the Civil UAS NAS Integration Roadmap, the FAA is laying the path forward for safe integration of civil UAS into the NAS. The roadmap will describe the research and development necessary for the FAA to develop standards and policy for safe integration. An evolved transition will occur, with access increasing from accommodation to integration into today’s NAS, and ultimately into the future NAS as it evolves over time.
Operation and Certification Standards
To address the increasing civil market and the desire by civilian operators to fly UAS, the FAA is developing new policies, procedures, and approval processes. Developing and implementing new UAS standards and guidance is a long-term effort.

The FAA created the Unmanned Aircraft Program Office (UAPO), within Aviation Safety (AVS), and the Unmanned Aircraft Systems Group, within Air Traffic Organization (ATO), to integrate UAS safely and efficiently into the NAS. These specific AVS and ATO offices are co-located to enhance communication and efficiency.

The FAA, working closely with stakeholders in the UAS community to define operational and certification requirements, stood up UAS Aviation Rulemaking Committee (ARC) to bring inputs and recommendations to the FAA on UAS matters. It is critical to develop and validate appropriate operational procedures, regulatory standards, and policies to enable routine UAS access to the NAS.

The FAA has asked RTCA – a group that frequently advises the agency on technical issues – to work with industry and develop UAS standards. RTCA will answer two key questions:
1. How will UAS handle communication, command, and control? 2. How will UAS “sense and avoid” other aircraft?

In addition, the FAA continues to work closely with its international counterparts to harmonize standards, policies, procedures, and regulatory requirements.
Data is Key
More safety data is needed to assist the FAA in making informed decisions on integration of UAS into the NAS, where the public travels each day. Currently, operations under COAs are required to report monthly operational data and incident/accident data. Increased data collection will allow the FAA to assess and enhance safety and expand the use of this technology.
Small Eyes in the Sky
The FAA expects small UAS (sUAS) to experience the greatest near-term growth in civil and commercial operations because of their versatility and relatively low initial cost and operating expenses. The agency has received extensive public comment on sUAS, both from proponents who believe their small size warrants minimal regulation and from groups concerned about hazards to manned general aviation aircraft and persons or property on the ground.
In April 2008, the FAA chartered the ARC to examine these operational and safety issues and make recommendations for proceeding with regulating sUAS. From this process, the agency drafted a Notice of Proposed Rulemaking with anticipated publication, late 2011.
One of the most promising potential uses for sUAS is in law enforcement. Although the sUAS ARC was not focused specifically on law enforcement organizations, these proponents were active participants on the ARC. Currently, any law enforcement organization must follow the COA process to conduct demonstration flights. The FAA is working with urban police departments in major metropolitan areas as well as national public safety organizations on test programs involving unmanned aircraft. The goal is to identify the challenges that UAS will bring into this environment to determine the operations that can be conducted safely by law enforcement.
The Bottom Line
Because of their inherent differences from manned aircraft, such as the pilot removed from the aircraft and the need for “sense and avoid,” introduction of UAS into the NAS is challenging for both the FAA and aviation community. In addition, UAS must be integrated into an evolving NAS, from one with ground-based navigational aids to a GPS-based system in NextGen.
Each year, public agency interest and use of COAs have increased. With the introduction of the sUAS Rule for civil operators, there will be an increase in the number and scope of UAS flights in an already busy NAS. Decisions being made about UAS airworthiness and operational requirements must fully address safety implications of UAS flying in the same airspace as manned aircraft, and perhaps more importantly, aircraft with passengers.
Overcoming these challenges associated with the differences between manned and unmanned aircraft while simultaneously transitioning to NextGen further amplifies the need for extensive cooperation between the FAA, other government agencies, and industry.

The PDF file can be found on the FAAwebsite. www.faa.gov/about/initiatives/uas/media/UAS_FACT_Sheet.pdf
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Old 07-06-2012, 01:44 AM
  #109
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Default RE: FPV SURVEY

CFR
Title 14
Part 91
Subpart B Flight Rules
91.119 Minimum safe altitudes;

Except when necessary for takeoff or landing, no person may operate an aircraft below the following altitudes:

(a) Anywhere. An altitude allowing, if a power unit fails, an emergency landing without undue hazard to persons or property on the surface.

(b) Over congested areas. Over any congested area of a city, town, or settlement, or over any open air assembly of persons, an altitude of 1,000 feet above the highest obstacle within a horizontal radius of 2,000 feet of the aircraft.

(c) Over other than congested areas. An altitude of 500 feet above the surface, except over open water or sparsely populated areas. In those cases, the aircraft may not be operated closer than 500 feet to any person, vessel, vehicle, or structure.


There is nothing in the CFRs that distinguishes an unmanned aircraft or an aircraft with souls on board. In this case

http://www.mercurynews.com/californi...one-helicopter

the minimum safe altitude restriction has been applied to an unmanned aircraft.

Regards
Frank
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Old 07-06-2012, 04:40 AM
  #110
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Not one word on this "fact sheet" from 2011 about the AMA. (Use control-f to search.) Since your post consisted entirely of claims about different rules for flying from AMA club fields and flying anywhere else, the fact sheet provides no support for your claims. Your apparent belief that it does is as strange as your original post.

There is no law currently in effect that draws any distinction between flying from an AMA club field and flying anywhere else. Your post on the supposed legal differences between flying from an AMA club field and flying elsewhere was not just wrong, it was absurd. Even your AMA insurance coverage doesn't require you to fly from a club field. I don't understand why you repeatedly post assertions about rules that are either completely made up or badly distorted versions of things you have heard and misremembered.

(This was a reply to JohnShe, not Frank.)
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Old 07-06-2012, 06:35 AM
  #111
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TG
Just give that guy the Lil Red hand like I did.
You cant discuss stuff with that guy, to him his fantasy laws trump everyone else reality and documentation.

And now you got suckered into arguing about another Pro-AMA law he made up.
I would rather listen to STL than him.
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Old 07-06-2012, 07:09 AM
  #112
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Default RE: FPV SURVEY

Recreational use of the NAS is covered by FAA Advisory Circular (AC) 91-57, which generally limits operations to below 400 feet above ground level and away from airports and air traffic.


The AMAsafety code is based partly on AC91-57. And yes, you are correct that as long as a flyer obeys, AC 91-57 he (or she) can fly wherever permitted and wherever it is safe to fly as specified in AC91-57.

Al, you are not acting like a gentleman. You just want to win a debate and you don't seem to care how you do it.
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Old 07-06-2012, 07:37 AM
  #113
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Quote:
You just want to win a debate and you don't seem to care how you do it.
There is no debate. You posted some plainly false statements, claiming that the laws are different for people flying from AMA club fields than for people flying elsewhere. In response to posts pointing out that this is not true, you posted a long "fact sheet" that said not a word about AMA club fields. And in response to a post pointing that out, you seem to concede that nothing in your original post was accurate while accusing me of somehow arguing unfairly.

It's really very simple. There are no laws that make flying from an AMA club field different in any way from flying elsewhere. I don't think anyone but you has ever claimed that there are, and now you have withdrawn that claim.
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Old 07-06-2012, 12:12 PM
  #114
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Quote:
ORIGINAL: Top_Gunn

Quote:
You just want to win a debate and you don't seem to care how you do it.
There is no debate. You posted some plainly false statements, claiming that the laws are different for people flying from AMA club fields than for people flying elsewhere. In response to posts pointing out that this is not true, you posted a long "fact sheet" that said not a word about AMA club fields. And in response to a post pointing that out, you seem to concede that nothing in your original post was accurate while accusing me of somehow arguing unfairly.

It's really very simple. There are no laws that make flying from an AMA club field different in any way from flying elsewhere. I don't think anyone but you has ever claimed that there are, and now you have withdrawn that claim.
Well, now you are misrepresenting my statements. And, the law has no bearing, this is a regulatory issue and the FAA is in charge.

My response to the gentleman's question was in regard to some subtle (and absurdly irrelevant) distinctions about flying UAV and FPV type aircraft. I told him the truth. The FAAsays "you can't!" until they have published the rules and certified airframes and pilot training, which may take a awhile. (and I have proven that to you). But, he can fly FPV at an AMAclub field if he obeys the rules. My club allows the buddy box rule for FPV, but I have never seen anyone do it. I also advised him of the risk of flying elsewhere. The risks are high that he could be cited for many local law violations and possibly have his equipment impounded by the local constabulary. That idiot at Alcatraz demonstrated that consequence quite well.

And, you have yet to show me that you can discuss this like a gentleman.




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Old 07-06-2012, 12:54 PM
  #115
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Quote:
ORIGINAL: JohnShe


Quote:
ORIGINAL: Top_Gunn

Quote:
You just want to win a debate and you don't seem to care how you do it.
There is no debate. You posted some plainly false statements, claiming that the laws are different for people flying from AMA club fields than for people flying elsewhere. In response to posts pointing out that this is not true, you posted a long ''fact sheet'' that said not a word about AMA club fields. And in response to a post pointing that out, you seem to concede that nothing in your original post was accurate while accusing me of somehow arguing unfairly.

It's really very simple. There are no laws that make flying from an AMA club field different in any way from flying elsewhere. I don't think anyone but you has ever claimed that there are, and now you have withdrawn that claim.
Well, now you are misrepresenting my statements. And, the law has no bearing, this is a regulatory issue and the FAA is in charge.

My response to the gentleman's question was in regard to some subtle (and absurdly irrelevant) distinctions about flying UAV and FPV type aircraft. I told him the truth. The FAA says ''you can't!'' until they have published the rules and certified airframes and pilot training, which may take a awhile. (and I have proven that to you). But, he can fly FPV at an AMA club field if he obeys the rules. My club allows the buddy box rule for FPV, but I have never seen anyone do it. I also advised him of the risk of flying elsewhere. The risks are high that he could be cited for many local law violations and possibly have his equipment impounded by the local constabulary. That idiot at Alcatraz demonstrated that consequence quite well.

And, you have yet to show me that you can discuss this like a gentleman.




Once again, just about everything you say is untrue. FAA regulations are law (they are not legislation, but they are law, because they create legal obligations; if you don't believe me, ask any lawyer). There are no FAA regulations that provide one set of rules for people flying from AMA fields and a different set of rules for people flying elsewhere. Someday, perhaps, there will be, but there are none now. It is true that someone "can fly FPV at an AMA field if he obeys the rules," including the buddy box. It is just as true, however, that he can do exactly the same thing with exactly the same legal consequences, at a place that isn't an AMA field. So the distinction you said existed between flying at an AMA club field and flying elsewhere does not exist. Describing reams of FAA regulations that say something else does not change that simple fact. Whether you still don't understand this or you do but are trying to claim that you said something else is a question I can't answer, and don't really care about.

I am thoroughly sick of this discussion, and I'd like to stop. My interest in showing you that I can "discuss this like a gentleman" is about equal to your interest in accuracy.
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Old 07-06-2012, 03:48 PM
  #116
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Well, Al, it seems obvious that you appear not to read and understood the FAA document that I presented to you.

The document very clearly outlines the FAA policy regarding UAV and model aviation and specifically cites two sets of policy one for each. And yes they are different because the FAA sees model aviation as a recreational activity and UAV flying as a commercial activity.

Therefore the discussion is over for me also.
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Old 07-06-2012, 04:16 PM
  #117
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Just in case anyone has forgotten your original claim, it was:

Quote:
you can't fly anywhere without FAA approval, except at an AMA club field.
This isn't a claim about what you can fly or how you can fly it. It's a claim about where you can fly, and it's flat wrong. Do even you still believe it?
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Old 07-07-2012, 07:24 AM
  #118
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I was referring to the use of UAV and FPV flying. You will note that the buffoon at Alcatraz was cited for numerous violations of local ordinances and soon may be further cited by the FAA. You cannot fly commercial UAV anywhere except at FAapproved locations and solely for the purpose of R&D or pilot training. The only safe place to fly FPV is at an AMAflying field, and I stand by that statement.



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Old 07-07-2012, 11:38 AM
  #119
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Quote:
ORIGINAL: JohnShe
The only safe place to fly FPV is at an AMAflying field, and I stand by that statement.
Rubbish. That's like saying no model airplane should be flown anywhere but at an AMA flying field.

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Old 07-07-2012, 02:04 PM
  #120
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Quote:
ORIGINAL: JohnShe

I was referring to the use of UAV and FPV flying. You will note that the buffoon at Alcatraz was cited for numerous violations of local ordinances and soon may be further cited by the FAA. You cannot fly commercial UAV anywhere except at FA approved locations and solely for the purpose of R&D or pilot training. The only safe place to fly FPV is at an AMA flying field, and I stand by that statement.



So your opinion is, that is the only safe place. I can respect your opinion even if I disagree, however your statement was it is illegal to fly anywhere else and that is the statement that was false.
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Old 07-07-2012, 02:44 PM
  #121
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Quote:
ORIGINAL: cfircav8r


Quote:
ORIGINAL: JohnShe

I was referring to the use of UAV and FPV flying. You will note that the buffoon at Alcatraz was cited for numerous violations of local ordinances and soon may be further cited by the FAA. You cannot fly commercial UAV anywhere except at FAapproved locations and solely for the purpose of R&D or pilot training. The only safe place to fly FPV is at an AMAflying field, and I stand by that statement.

So your opinion is, that is the only safe place. I can respect your opinion even if I disagree, however your statement was it is illegal to fly anywhere else and that is the statement that was false.
I never used the word "illegal". You have made a false statement and I demand that you corrct it.



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Old 07-07-2012, 07:05 PM
  #122
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ORIGINAL: JohnShe

The only safe place to fly FPV is at an AMA flying field, and I stand by that statement.







You seem to be digging even deeper IMO... there are many safe places to fly FPV...its not where as much as how, AMA field or not...
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Old 07-07-2012, 08:01 PM
  #123
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Default RE: FPV SURVEY


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ORIGINAL: JohnShe


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ORIGINAL: TexasAirBoss

Are FPV drones/models required to maintain 500' seperation from people/structures ?
The FAA regulations have not been published yet, so we don't know what the regulations will say. Therefore there is no FAA answer to your question. The only answer right now is you can't fly anywhere without FAA approval, except at an AMA club field.

If you fly at an AMA club field you will be held accountable to the posted field rules and any applicable AMA policy.

If you choose to fly somewhere else, you are on your own. The jails should be full of people who cause property damage or injury by flying where they aren't supposed to
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While you did not use the term illegal, you implied it by claiming if you fly at an AMA field you are safe, but to fly anywhere else you risk jail time. Last time I checked they can't throw you in jail unless you break the law. Whether someone gets hurt or not has no bearing on the legality of an activity, it is either illegal or not. I'm not attacking you just trying to explain what we objected to. It's statements like these that get people believing that the AMA card is your license to fly model airplanes. While I am in favor of AMA membership, it should be a choice based on facts. I understand your strong feelings on the matter and don't believe you intended to mislead, but that is how it came across, to more than just me.
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Old 07-08-2012, 07:35 AM
  #124
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There is nothing in the CFRs that distinguishes an unmanned aircraft or an aircraft with souls on board. In this case
Read 91.1, it sayst that 91.1 applies to all people on board, not the aircraft, not a remote pilot. If it did we would violate it every time we flew our models.


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the minimum safe altitude restriction has been applied to an unmanned aircraft.
Yes, but not as part of part 91 but as part of UAV policies for very large UAV's.
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Old 07-08-2012, 07:55 AM
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It appears the FAA is applying the minimum safe altitude rules in this case.
For very large UAV's the FAA required the operator to comply with part 91 as part of the certification process and UAV policies. However this may be much smaller than that and would have been allowed to fly under 500 feet.

I don't see anything about the FAA charging them, but the Park Rangers and Coast Guard. The Park service has rules not allowing aircrat to flylower than2000 feet.
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