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Ultra lights

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Old 07-11-2012, 03:17 PM
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airraptor
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Default Ultra lights

Are Ultra light aircraft allowed to land at a Model Airplane field. if they are allowed to land by thier rules are they allowed to land by r/c field rules that is under AMA guidelines?
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Old 07-11-2012, 05:14 PM
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Default RE: Ultra lights

You would have to have the permission of the field owner, and there can't be any local ordinances against it. The only way the AMA factors in is they will not cover the ultralight operations should there be an accident.
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Old 07-11-2012, 05:16 PM
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Default RE: Ultra lights

I'm not familiar with recreational/ultralight aircraft rules, but any plane can land at a field (R/C field or private strip) without consent ...... if that aircraft is experiencing power/control problems.

... In other words, it better be an emergency if they're landing.
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Old 07-11-2012, 05:29 PM
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Default RE: Ultra lights

Years ago, at Buder Park, near St. Louis, I saw an ultra lite rogallo wing with a small engine on a long rear boom land on the RC field. The guy folded up the wing and walked around a bit, talking with guys in the pits. He then opened the wing, fired up the engine and took off into the blue. So far as I know nothing was said about it.
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Old 07-11-2012, 07:33 PM
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Default RE: Ultra lights


Quote:
ORIGINAL: FILE IFR

I'm not familiar with recreational/ultralight aircraft rules, but any plane can land at a field (R/C field or private strip) without consent ...... if that aircraft is experiencing power/control problems.

//snip//
That's a GIVEN!

Otherwise:
Sure they can if the landowner/mortgage holder or such and the flier/s have a contract with special permission for the operation. BTDT.
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Old 07-11-2012, 08:17 PM
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Default RE: Ultra lights

About 20+ years ago a AutoGyro used to cruise up and down the farm valley in this area. It landed at our RC club field, once.
Only a pre-menstral Valley Girl would have made an issue about it.
The plane itself was pretty scary looking up close. It was built out of junk that you would buy at Home Depot. The main rotor hub looked like a cast iron plumbing fitting.
There used to be an annual, tragic, crash report about some ill fated ultralight in this area for many years then the ultralight activity [fad] seems to have gone away completely. I can not remember the last time I saw an ultralight venture away from airport property in Arlington Wa..
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Old 07-12-2012, 06:08 AM
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Default RE: Ultra lights

theres actually a couple of things going on in the OP's question.

First, ultralights are allowed by the FAA to land in fields (even fields where MA fly).
However, some field owners (aka most) do not allow that trespassing.
But, as stated in posts above, FAA says in an emergency they can land regardless.

Second, the OP is likely not asking about what the FAA permits, but what AMA permits.
Seems the OP was assuming all model fields are AMA and subject to AMA rules
and as such wants to know if AMA has a rule against it.
No, they dont.
But your club may, and that is something the club could change locally if they want.


in review:
The FAA does not prohibit it.
The AMA does not prohibit it.
The club may choose to prohibit it if they want to.
The land owner may choose to prohibit it if they want to.
Even if it is prohibited it can still land in an emergency -with a subjective application of the term Emergency.
(this is the wink-wink method of doing something forbidden:
just call standard ops an Emergency if caught,
like calling out Turbine radar passes as "199+" because they violated the 200 speed limit)
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Old 07-12-2012, 07:05 AM
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Default RE: Ultra lights

Yes kid that is what i was looking for. We lease land from the city so i will look in to it with the city. I did look on the AMA site but couldnt find much on there but sure it is somewhere. i am not sure i want to allow it my self but something to think about. I know the UL's are a next step for some guys.
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Old 07-12-2012, 07:12 AM
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Default RE: Ultra lights

If you're talking about something once, it's cool. If it becomes an ultra light field then you will have issues. We had a member getting a ride in a heli and they flew over and landed, it was cool. I woulndt want helicopter operations in and out of there every weekend when I was trying to fly.
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Old 07-12-2012, 07:19 AM
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Default RE: Ultra lights

Well
if you do decide to have p103 Ultralights at you site
(notice I said SITE and not 'club')
then you just need to consider how you want to define those users re: insurance.

Obviously the AMA does not insure the fenderbender in the club site parkinglot between 2 automobiles.
Even should those cars be non-member spectators, that is not an insured activity.
If one of them trips on the parking curb while arguing over accident
then YES that trip is insured for when the Tripper wants money from the Club or Landowner.

So
we know thet there is no problem with letting folks arrive and depart in vehicles
on club / siteowner property,
but that ground craft arrival and departure activity is not insured.

Notice the way I said that... 'ground craft arrival and departure'-
its almost like we dont need to have the word Ground there
because it applies to all craft that are LAWFULLY arriving and departing with folks

Just arrive, depart, and park your (air/ground/water) craft like everyone else.

Uhh. well.... um.. unless you check every cars automobile insurance as they enter the parking lot.
Cause if you do check cars insurance then it seems you would also check aircraft insurance too.
If you havent been checking all the groundcraft insurance, why would you start checking aircraft insurance?
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Old 07-12-2012, 08:11 AM
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Default RE: Ultra lights

Quote:
ORIGINAL: airraptor

Yes kid that is what i was looking for. We lease land from the city so i will look in to it with the city. I did look on the AMA site but couldnt find much on there but sure it is somewhere. i am not sure i want to allow it my self but something to think about. I know the UL's are a next step for some guys.
In my post on this subject, I stated BTDT. It went this way.

I sold land to an RC Club and held the mortgage. In the sales contract I specified that no man-carrying machine could operate to/from the property without my specific authorization on each specific time. In addition the club had to keep me as an additional insured for any liability item that may happen.
#1. Normal Club AMA insurance does not cover such. activity.
#2. I could be sued in civil court if such an accident should arise. ETC. ETC.

2. There were several instances but this is the most comical:

One afternoon, (I was at the field) 3 pick-up trucks pulled up. Each had a man-carrying contraption, the ones with motor and a parasail thing. They were looking over the property and one said, "This will do fine for us." I asked what he meant. He said that it was great for their parasail operation. I stated the Club owned the land and anyone using the property must join both the Academy of Model Aeronautics and the XXXX RC Club. He said that was OK. Then came the biggie! I stated that the club had a mortgage contract that prevented any man-carrying operations without specific permission of the mortgage holder on each specific operation.
He came rather unglued and stated, "Who would make such a contract?" I stated, "I did!". WELL, IN A FEW MINUTES THOSE GUYS DEPARTED THE FACILITY AND WERE NEVER SEEN AGAIN.

If you wish to lose your RC Club facility, simply start allowing UL or whatever use it. It won't last long for a number of reasons. The easiest is to get a gang of them in the club, they will then get to be officers, hold an election to change By-Laws and kick-out all that just fly models. SOOO EASY!
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Old 07-12-2012, 08:29 AM
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Default RE: Ultra lights

There is an untralite airport near San Antonio which is also home to an RC club. I think it is a matter that the ultralites have the right of way. I have seen both ultralites and RC airplanes in the air at the same time. There is also a private paved CL circle on the property, well off to one side.
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Old 07-12-2012, 08:44 AM
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Default RE: Ultra lights


Quote:
ORIGINAL: airraptor

Yes kid that is what i was looking for. We lease land from the city so i will look in to it with the city. I did look on the AMA site but couldnt find much on there but sure it is somewhere. i am not sure i want to allow it my self but something to think about. I know the UL's are a next step for some guys.
Then someone will ask if ULs are allowed what about full size Cubs, etc? And if they are allowed what about a full size P-51? Next comes the B-17. And then a 380.

Why open a door an inch when you know full well someone will want to open it more? Tell the ULs to stay at their own field.
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Old 07-12-2012, 10:08 AM
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Default RE: Ultra lights

yes i am not looking to have them there all the time. it was just asked at one of our club meetings if a memeber could land his UL there. I will not want local UL to land land there at all. This is a R/C field not a UL field. thanks guys It comes down to the land owner and our lease agreement.

if you can land a B-17 or 380 on a 500x40 foot strip my all means go ahead. just let us know so we can watch from the hill side.
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Old 07-12-2012, 10:35 AM
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Default RE: Ultra lights

My understanding is if a runway has a X painted on the ends no full scales are supposed to land there except in emergencies.
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Old 07-12-2012, 11:40 AM
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Default RE: Ultra lights

We had an ultralight make a missed approach at our field, quite scary! We were flying at the time, he made no pattern, just flew straight in to the runway. He waited til the last moment, then poured the coals on & left.  He had to know previously it was an RC field, as it's hard to find.

I have an old UL, a 2-place Kolb, and thus like them, but they can only mix with both group's cooperation.
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Old 07-12-2012, 06:01 PM
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Default RE: Ultra lights

An X simply means that runway is closed to normal flight ops. It can still be used with prior authorization or in an emergency.
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Old 07-12-2012, 08:13 PM
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Default RE: Ultra lights

Well... at the risk of being labeled as contrary or argumentative, I have to say I belong to a very fine club that shares a runway with full scale planes as well as ultralights... I also fly with other clubs located at airports as well... One of my all time favorite flying sites is at another nearby county airport...

I guess there is just a preconceived notion that full scale aviators should have a superior privilege in their pursuits of liberty and happiness in the airways....
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Old 07-12-2012, 09:33 PM
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Default RE: Ultra lights


Quote:
ORIGINAL: littlecrankshaf
I guess there is just a preconceived notion that full scale aviators should have a superior privilege in their pursuits of liberty and happiness in the airways....
One that Congress and the FAA share, and theirs is the only opinion that matters.

From HR 658 Model aircraft exemption section:

Quote:
(4) the aircraft is operated in a manner that does not interfere with and gives way to any manned aircraft;
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Old 07-13-2012, 05:29 AM
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Default RE: Ultra lights


Quote:
ORIGINAL: littlecrankshaf

Well... at the risk of being labeled as contrary or argumentative, I have to say I belong to a very fine club that shares a runway with full scale planes as well as ultralights... I also fly with other clubs located at airports as well... One of my all time favorite flying sites is at another nearby county airport...

I guess there is just a preconceived notion that full scale aviators should have a superior privilege in their pursuits of liberty and happiness in the airways....
It certainly can be done as long as good communication is maintained.

As for superiority, all manned aircraft have the right away over models in any circumstance, if you don't believe that you can read the NTSB narrative on the Denver incident.

As for you being argumentitive? Who would ever say that???
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Old 07-13-2012, 05:52 AM
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Default RE: Ultra lights


Quote:
ORIGINAL: Silent-AV8R


Quote:
ORIGINAL: littlecrankshaf
I guess there is just a preconceived notion that full scale aviators should have a superior privilege in their pursuits of liberty and happiness in the airways....
One that Congress and the FAA share, and theirs is the only opinion that matters.

From HR 658 Model aircraft exemption section:

Quote:
(4) the aircraft is operated in a manner that does not interfere with and gives way to any manned aircraft;
Thanks for pointing out that I am right

Seriously, giving way to manned aircraft is a no-brainer safety concern...if someone needs to be told that, then they haven't the capacity to understand much of anything anyway... no matter what the law.
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Old 07-13-2012, 08:40 AM
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Default RE: Ultra lights


Quote:
ORIGINAL: Silent-AV8R


Quote:
ORIGINAL: littlecrankshaf
I guess there is just a preconceived notion that full scale aviators should have a superior privilege in their pursuits of liberty and happiness in the airways....
One that Congress and the FAA share, and theirs is the only opinion that matters.

From HR 658 Model aircraft exemption section:

Quote:
(4) the aircraft is operated in a manner that does not interfere with and gives way to any manned aircraft;
in the future, please refer to the final signed [link=http://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/PLAW-112publ95/html/PLAW-112publ95.htm]Public Law 112-95[/link] (
(http://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/PLAW-11...-112publ95.htm)

rather than to the senate(223) vs house(658) parts


That part of the law you cited only lists requirements to receive a special exemption,
not an universal decree on how all models shall operate
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Old 07-13-2012, 08:44 AM
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Default RE: Ultra lights


Quote:
ORIGINAL: BarracudaHockey


Quote:
ORIGINAL: littlecrankshaf

Well... at the risk of being labeled as contrary or argumentative, I have to say I belong to a very fine club that shares a runway with full scale planes as well as ultralights... I also fly with other clubs located at airports as well... One of my all time favorite flying sites is at another nearby county airport...

I guess there is just a preconceived notion that full scale aviators should have a superior privilege in their pursuits of liberty and happiness in the airways....
It certainly can be done as long as good communication is maintained.

As for superiority, all manned aircraft have the right away over models in any circumstance, if you don't believe that you can read the NTSB narrative on the Denver incident.

As for you being argumentitive? Who would ever say that???
I can remember reading somewhere here on RCU that the full scale pilot in the Denver incident got called on the carpet by the FAA for his roll in the mishap.
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Old 07-13-2012, 08:53 AM
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Default RE: Ultra lights

The NTSB report states that he (the f/s pilot) noticed the activity, executed a missed approach and turned the smoke on for maxiumum visibility. The RC spotter got blamed, the ground coordinator got blamed for not coordinating and the rc pilot got blamed for climbing into the path of the f/s pitts.

They may have known better than the story of the missed approach, but mix it up with a manned airplane and you will most likely be in the wrong.
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Old 07-13-2012, 09:31 AM
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Default RE: Ultra lights

I fly corporate, and IMO the Pitts pilot got away with some very poor decisions and actions.[]
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