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  1. #126
    donho1's Avatar
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    RE: AMA to close the AMA Discussions Forum

    Do not care

  2. #127

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    RE: AMA to close the AMA Discussions Forum

    init, with only three weeks left until it goes away, and your desire to not be banned when it closes, and your promises to behave, you are back on.

  3. #128

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    RE: AMA to close the AMA Discussions Forum


    ORIGINAL: Arbo

    init, with only three weeks left until it goes away, and your desire to not be banned when it closes, and your promises to behave, you are back on.
    [8D] Honestly , and with no sarcasm intended , Thank You for that !

    I know I've directed a lot of anger at you for that forum's demise , Much in the same way Baseball fans always blame the manager , I guess it's just human nature .

    Make no mistake , I don't hate Paul Arbo or anybody else out here ! I know my harsh assessments don't always look in print the way I meant them to look , And I'll freely admit to letting my anger at the loss of the AMA forum be vented on Paul . We had a golden opportunity slip through our hands to have a forum beholden to NO manufacturer , and that opportunity failed . All of us as AMAers and fellow modelers of all kinds have lost out here .

    A discussion forum has to allow all opinions that are presented in a non rulebreaking way . That's the only way true discussion can take place . To have had a place , sanctioned by the AMA , where ANY product or manufacturer could have been discussed would have been a dream come true . Now , when the AMA forum is switched off , it will leave mostly the talk on the commercial sites . Good luck with going to RCG if you've got a HK problem ! A national , neutral site is just what was needed . And we lost it . I'm done playin the blame game , , , after all , It IS nothing more than "crying over spilt milk"

    Happy Flying Guys , ALL of you ! [8D]

  4. #129
    edh13's Avatar
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    RE: AMA to close the AMA Discussions Forum

    My head hurts...

  5. #130
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    RE: AMA to close the AMA Discussions Forum

    Looks like the moderating standards were ARBO-trary .
    LF

  6. #131

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    RE: AMA to close the AMA Discussions Forum


    ORIGINAL: Ladyflyer

    Looks like the moderating standards were ARBO-trary .

    Yeah, that's what has been repeated. Doesn't matter that it isn't true.

  7. #132

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    RE: AMA to close the AMA Discussions Forum

    I do not think the moderation standards were arbitrary, but I do think the moderation was excessive. IMO, "the baby was tossed out with the bath water" on numerous occasions. The excessive moderation turned off enough people that the forum became ever less visited and ever more irrelevant to the few that wanted to participate in the beginning.

    The forum should have been a place for members to be able to freely air their opinions, good or bad, about what the AMA is up to and about the AMAs policies and procedures. As long as the constructive criticism was on topic and not abusive, posts should have been allowed to stay.

    Electric Coolhunter

  8. #133
    wahoo's Avatar
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    RE: AMA to close the AMA Discussions Forum


    ORIGINAL: Thomas B

    I do not think the moderation standards were arbitrary, but I do think the moderation was excessive. IMO, "the baby was tossed out with the bath water" on numerous occasions. The excessive moderation turned off enough people that the forum became ever less visited and ever more irrelevant to the few that wanted to participate in the beginning.

    The forum should have been a place for members to be able to freely air their opinions, good or bad, about what the AMA is up to and about the AMAs policies and procedures. As long as the constructive criticism was on topic and not abusive, posts should have been allowed to stay.

    In a perfect world thats the way it should work, unfortunately that won't happen as long as a human is involved.

    Think of it this way for a second, you lay out the funds to open your own forum, then you allow whoever wants to join and they start bashing you and the way you choose to run YOUR site. I can GUARENTEE that you would use your own moderation powers to only hear what you want to hear, and basically that would only be the sunshine being blown up yer arse.


    When ever I feel like expressing my own opinion... I just ask an RCU moderator. Better safe than sorry I always say.

  9. #134
    wahoo's Avatar
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    RE: AMA to close the AMA Discussions Forum

    Ken you can say you moderate with non bias all you want but it seem anytime I post my opinion of something you take it down.

    Case in point, what happened to my post where I quoted arbo saying he didn't know who it was he banned with me stating under it that IN MY OPINION his moderator powers should have been banned for it.

    Please explain to me how that violated any rule on RCU please.

    My sig line becomes more true with each post I make.


    When ever I feel like expressing my own opinion... I just ask an RCU moderator. Better safe than sorry I always say.

  10. #135
    RCU Forum Manager/Admin RCKen's Avatar
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    RE: AMA to close the AMA Discussions Forum


    ORIGINAL: wahoo

    Ken you can say you moderate with non bias all you want but it seem anytime I post my opinion of something you take it down.

    Case in point, what happened to my post where I quoted arbo saying he didn't know who it was he banned with me stating under it that IN MY OPINION his moderator powers should have been banned for it.

    Please explain to me how that violated any rule on RCU please.

    My sig line becomes more true with each post I make.


    Wahoo,
    You are absolutely correct. Your post was removed. And you are also correct that you didn't violate any rules with your post. However, your post quoted a post made by another member that was removed. This is a common practice by moderators on just about every forum on the internet. If I removed a post by a member, and left your qoute of the post then my removing the original post is a moot point because everybody can see the post in your quotation. When the post that did violate the rules was removed all quotes and direct replies to that post are routinely removed.

    And as a second point. When I removed the post your reply to him was no longer relevant. Had I left your reply to a post that was no longer there it would only make the thread confusing and very difficult to read.

    But yes, I will say it again. You did not violate any rules with your post. Your only wrong doing was that you quoted somebody that did break the rules.

    Ken

    The take off is optional, but the landing is MANDATORY!!
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  11. #136
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    RE: AMA to close the AMA Discussions Forum

    His admission to making a moderator mistake on another forum breaks the rules on this forum how ??
    When ever I feel like expressing my own opinion... I just ask an RCU moderator. Better safe than sorry I always say.

  12. #137
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    RE: AMA to close the AMA Discussions Forum

    ORIGINAL: Wahoo
    Think of it this way for a second, you lay out the funds to open your own forum, then you allow whoever wants to join and they start bashing you and the way you choose to run YOUR site. I can GUARENTEE that you would use your own moderation powers to only hear what you want to hear, and basically that would only be the sunshine being blown up yer arse.

    Edited; I screwed up and blamed another of the quote. [&o]Maybe as a general rule or thesis, Whoo, you are correct. However IMO, I see things a bit differently.

    The Academy of Model Aeronautics, AMA, is a membership organization and is NOT using its "own" money to operate the forum. It is using funds from the entire spectrum of membership. Those that do not use the forum pay the same fare as those that do. Kind of like we "taxpayers" that support the grandiose living styles of our government people and then we have to abide by their rules while we commoners have absolutely nothing to say about those rules.

    Therefore I have very little respect for those that make rules, especially rules that I have to assist with their financial standards, that are designed to zip my lip and action, while blowing the smoke upward. In addition I do not care much for those that, simply to further their own status, condone the rule-makers' actions.

    In my 76 years I have tried to be understanding of those that I associate with reference their own problems and situations. OTOH, those that try to use me, mine, or my situations simply to further their own personal status, well, they don't find me to be a friendly ally.
    As for AMA I have served long and hard for their positions and programs, I have donated far more than "dues" and I don't wave a flag for their intent that I see building bigger each passing day which is less than the support of aeromodeling. 'Nuff said for now! [8D]
    Horrace Cain AMA L-93

    β€œPeace is the brief glorious moment in history when everyone stands around reloading.\" T. Jefferson

  13. #138

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    RE: AMA to close the AMA Discussions Forum

    I am sure part of my dues maybe were used in the operation of the forum-not much but many of us still pay dues.
    \"IF YOU HAVE TOO MANY AIRPLANES -FLY BOLDLY AND REDUCE YOUR NUMBER\"

  14. #139

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    RE: AMA to close the AMA Discussions Forum


    ORIGINAL: wahoo


    ORIGINAL: Thomas B

    I do not think the moderation standards were arbitrary, but I do think the moderation was excessive. IMO, ''the baby was tossed out with the bath water'' on numerous occasions. The excessive moderation turned off enough people that the forum became ever less visited and ever more irrelevant to the few that wanted to participate in the beginning.

    The forum should have been a place for members to be able to freely air their opinions, good or bad, about what the AMA is up to and about the AMAs policies and procedures. As long as the constructive criticism was on topic and not abusive, posts should have been allowed to stay.

    In a perfect world thats the way it should work, unfortunately that won't happen as long as a human is involved.Β*

    Think of it this way for a second, you lay out the funds to open your own forum, then you allow whoever wants to join and they start bashing you and the way you choose to run YOUR site. I can GUARENTEE that you would use your own moderation powers to only hear what you want to hear, and basically that would only be the sunshine being blown up yer arse.



    Very true in many ways....
    It is difficult when "Personal Feelings" get hurt on the matter EX: AMA or even a RC plane manufacture... As the immediate response is anger, and a colonic flush is issued promptly....
    A very simple analogy to this is BRAND LOYALTY and how people take offence to ones opinion of a product of a brand...
    If you can\'\'\'\'t dazzle em with brilliance,baffle em with BS

  15. #140
    phlpsfrnk's Avatar
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    RE: AMA to close the AMA Discussions Forum


    ORIGINAL: Arbo

    LCS and Pfrank, I sent messages on the AMA forum, and posted in the moderator section, WRT my intentions once I saw the 'official' word go out that the forum was 'done'. That was to not let it 'go out' with a bunch of people getting on there and causing trouble. Nobody said 'no'. And all the AMA employees and officials that check the forum, have read that message frank, all have the ability to 'moderate' anything they do not want there. Take from that whatever you want.
    Paul,
    This last ticket was not the first of its kind and I've stated on numerous occasions that that is a problem. I have civilly suggested improvements that were met with ridicule and censoring. If you are telling me that you are the only moderator/administrator that can close abuse tickets, including abuse tickets against your own posts I'm not buying it. If half of what you say is true about the administration above you and their lack of management then I feel sorry for you for being used as their scapegoat for the failure of the forum. Time and time again you have had the last word by locking threads with a final post that more often than not broke the same rules you claimed to be enforcing.

    Your attitude and treatment of β€œa bunch of people getting on there and causing trouble” was a large part of the problem. Like it or not that β€œbunch of people” were card carrying members that deserved a voice. Your job should have been to help them keep it civil, not to act as the administrations censor and/or their hatchet man as you claim. I applaud you for wanting to take on the task; however I condemn you for being incapable or unwilling to properly accomplish what could have been a successful forum. I also condemn the administration for letting it happen but maybe that was the intent all along.

    Regards
    Frank
    It is not possible to write in such a way that cannot be misinterpreted by a reader determined to do so.

  16. #141
    Stickbuilder's Avatar
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    RE: AMA to close the AMA Discussions Forum



    ORIGINAL: Arbo

    The AMA had a set of rules, and the did not want the bickering and arguing, they did not want the negativity so many brought to the forum... it was the AMA's agenda. A nice and civil forum that protrayed the AMA and it's members in a good way.
    If the AMA only wanted posts that portrayed them and it's members in a good way, then they should not have opened the forum up to the members at large, but only allowed the Leader Members to make posts. The only membership that counts or matters (other than the funds collected) to the AMA seem to be this part of the membership.

    The AMA has done a lot of good for the hobby, but there appears to be a hidden agenda that wants only a select few to have any voice it the enterprise. At the same time, there is a lot that the AMA has done that does not well serve the rest of the membership. We (those with open memberships) don't have any voice in what goes on in Muncie. True, we do get to vote, but our voices are not heard at the EC level.

    So if they did not want any negativity, then why did they see the need to install a moderator? I firmly believe that the forum was created with the intention to fail, so that the EC could point at us and say that they did institute a forum, but we (the membership) ruined it. Guess what? The membership at large will never agree on everything. They should not have set the bar so high that no one could clear it.

    That's just my opinion (ought to be yours)

    Bill, Bottom Feeder #1
    AMA 4720
    Its easy, just glue all the pieces together, and sand off everything that doesnt look like an airplane.

  17. #142

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    RE: AMA to close the AMA Discussions Forum


    ORIGINAL: phlpsfrnk

    Paul,
    This last ticket was not the first of its kind and I've stated on numerous occasions that that is a problem. I have civilly suggested improvements that were met with ridicule and censoring. If you are telling me that you are the only moderator/administrator that can close abuse tickets, including abuse tickets against your own posts I'm not buying it. If half of what you say is true about the administration above you and their lack of management then I feel sorry for you for being used as their scapegoat for the failure of the forum. Time and time again you have had the last word by locking threads with a final post that more often than not broke the same rules you claimed to be enforcing.
    You will continue to 'not buy' anything you hear that refutes what you don't want to believe. When Muroc was there, we would tell each other we could not moderate thread 'xxxxxx' because it was about us, so the other would do it if needed. When he left, I would post the same 'will not moderate this' messages in the moderator section, sometimes there would be a response, sometimes not. A few of the guys checked in somewhat regularly, but that didn't mean they responded or took action. In the end, it was always about the rules, from my view.

    Your attitude and treatment of β€œa bunch of people getting on there and causing trouble” was a large part of the problem. Like it or not that β€œbunch of people” were card carrying members that deserved a voice. Your job should have been to help them keep it civil, not to act as the administrations censor and/or their hatchet man as you claim. I applaud you for wanting to take on the task; however I condemn you for being incapable or unwilling to properly accomplish what could have been a successful forum. I also condemn the administration for letting it happen but maybe that was the intent all along.
    Nonsense. It doesn't matter if you are a 'card carrying member'. You still need to follow the rules. And it is nobody's job to teach others how to be civil. There isn't enough money to pay someone to do that, and we are talking about a volunteer position. There were pointers and reminders of the rules put out quite a lot, there were offers to explain them if there were any questions... sorry, but the rest was up to the individual. No forum that is about the hobby leads people through by the hand...


  18. #143
    phlpsfrnk's Avatar
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    RE: AMA to close the AMA Discussions Forum


    ORIGINAL: Stickbuilder

    If the AMA only wanted posts that portrayed them and it's members in a good way, then they should not have opened the forum up to the members at large, but only allowed the Leader Members to make posts. The only membership that counts or matters (other than the funds collected) to the AMA seem to be this part of the membership.
    Bill,
    I agree with you 100% however do not think that Leader Members only allowed to post would have solved anything. The LM only forum was full of violations of personal attacks and forum bashing from a select few. Arbo claimed to not be moderating that forum but there are a few locked threads where he was again allowed the last word/post. It was fortunately kept from the view of the general membership. Appeared to me to be a double standard but only proved to me that the Leader Members were no better than the general membership as far as violations and that is my opinion as a Leader Member.

    Regards
    Frank
    It is not possible to write in such a way that cannot be misinterpreted by a reader determined to do so.

  19. #144
    phlpsfrnk's Avatar
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    RE: AMA to close the AMA Discussions Forum


    ORIGINAL: Arbo
    Nonsense. It doesn't matter if you are a 'card carrying member'. You still need to follow the rules. And it is nobody's job to teach others how to be civil. There isn't enough money to pay someone to do that, and we are talking about a volunteer position. There were pointers and reminders of the rules put out quite a lot, there were offers to explain them if there were any questions... sorry, but the rest was up to the individual. No forum that is about the hobby leads people through by the hand...
    Paul,
    Here's a challenge for you. Publish the post or posts that got me a 30 day ban from the forum. Show everyone what rules I violated. If, as you have implied here, the banning was ordered from AMA administration publish the PM or email or whatever communications you received to that effect.

    It is not possible to write in such a way that cannot be misinterpreted by a reader determined to do so.

  20. #145

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    RE: AMA to close the AMA Discussions Forum


    ORIGINAL: phlpsfrnk
    Bill,
    I agree with you 100% however do not think that Leader Members only allowed to post would have solved anything. The LM only forum was full of violations of personal attacks and forum bashing from a select few. Arbo claimed to not be moderating that forum but there are a few locked threads where he was again allowed the last word/post. It was fortunately kept from the view of the general membership. Appeared to me to be a double standard but only proved to me that the Leader Members were no better than the general membership as far as violations and that is my opinion as a Leader Member.

    Regards
    Frank
    pfrank is correct in that allowing only the Leader Members to post would still have given loads of posts that didn't belong, that violated the rules. The LM section is full of such posts. Though pfrank doubts my statement about not moderating that one, it is a fact, none of the 'normal' moderators had the power to moderate that forum, only the AMA staff had that power. That so many flagrant rules violations are in there, kinda tells the story about how much effort they put into it.

  21. #146

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    RE: AMA to close the AMA Discussions Forum


    ORIGINAL: Stickbuilder
    If the AMA only wanted posts that portrayed them and it's members in a good way, then they should not have opened the forum up to the members at large, but only allowed the Leader Members to make posts. The only membership that counts or matters (other than the funds collected) to the AMA seem to be this part of the membership.

    The AMA has done a lot of good for the hobby, but there appears to be a hidden agenda that wants only a select few to have any voice it the enterprise. At the same time, there is a lot that the AMA has done that does not well serve the rest of the membership. We (those with open memberships) don't have any voice in what goes on in Muncie. True, we do get to vote, but our voices are not heard at the EC level.

    So if they did not want any negativity, then why did they see the need to install a moderator? I firmly believe that the forum was created with the intention to fail, so that the EC could point at us and say that they did institute a forum, but we (the membership) ruined it. Guess what? The membership at large will never agree on everything. They should not have set the bar so high that no one could clear it.

    That's just my opinion (ought to be yours)

    Bill, Bottom Feeder #1
    AMA 4720
    Of interest, this user violated the rules there, was giving a warning, just a warning, the admins and other mods were notified in the 'moderator' section... as you see, all things are documented. The response to a WARNING, is quite interesting.



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  22. #147
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    RE: AMA to close the AMA Discussions Forum


    ORIGINAL: phlpsfrnk


    ORIGINAL: Arbo

    LCS and Pfrank, I sent messages on the AMA forum, and posted in the moderator section, WRT my intentions once I saw the 'official' word go out that the forum was 'done'. That was to not let it 'go out' with a bunch of people getting on there and causing trouble. Nobody said 'no'. And all the AMA employees and officials that check the forum, have read that message frank, all have the ability to 'moderate' anything they do not want there. Take from that whatever you want.
    Paul,
    This last ticket was not the first of its kind and I've stated on numerous occasions that that is a problem. I have civilly suggested improvements that were met with ridicule and censoring. If you are telling me that you are the only moderator/administrator that can close abuse tickets, including abuse tickets against your own posts I'm not buying it. If half of what you say is true about the administration above you and their lack of management then I feel sorry for you for being used as their scapegoat for the failure of the forum. Time and time again you have had the last word by locking threads with a final post that more often than not broke the same rules you claimed to be enforcing.

    Your attitude and treatment of “a bunch of people getting on there and causing trouble” was a large part of the problem. Like it or not that “bunch of people” were card carrying members that deserved a voice. Your job should have been to help them keep it civil, not to act as the administrations censor and/or their hatchet man as you claim. I applaud you for wanting to take on the task; however I condemn you for being incapable or unwilling to properly accomplish what could have been a successful forum. I also condemn the administration for letting it happen but maybe that was the intent all along.

    Regards
    Frank
    Frank let's explore that........................................

    The forum had three sections:>>

    1. AMA Message Board Information
    2. >>General Discussions
    3. Publications

    >>

    The main section was of course: General Discussion.Now discussion implies that an idea or concept is explored from all sides, not just the positive.However the AMA forum was overly sensitive to any negative discussion.This IMHO showed the inability (can I say incompetence?) of the EC and AMA Staff to operate a member based communication.>>

    Some questions:>>

    What was the process to vet a new moderator?>>

    1. Any warm body that volunteers (even if previously banned on the forum?)
    2. A review of the candidate’s online posting history to see any obvious biases and ability to moderate effectively?

    >>

    What was the process to review reported posts or to close threads?>>

    1. At moderator discression?
    2. A review with staff?

    >>

    What was the process to review and respond to complaints sent to AMA Staff and EC members via “ASK AMA”, phone, email and forum PM’s (yes there were a lot of complaints)>>

    1. Ignore it and label the complainers troublemakers
    2. Analyze the complaints to see if action/change is needed

    >>

    I have my opinion on the answers and it leads to some other questions:>>

    WHICH IS WORSE?>>

    1. It was all the fault of the moderator and the AMA did nothing about it?
    2. The AMA EC and staff knew what was going on and ignored the problem

    >>

    Can an organization that cannot even effectively manage and run a online forum be an effective and competent CBO in the new reality of government overview via the FAA?>>

    Brad>>

    >>


  23. #148

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    RE: AMA to close the AMA Discussions Forum


    ORIGINAL: phlpsfrnk
    Paul,
    Here's a challenge for you. Publish the post or posts that got me a 30 day ban from the forum. Show everyone what rules I violated. If, as you have implied here, the banning was ordered from AMA administration publish the PM or email or whatever communications you received to that effect.
    This response really has nothing to do with what you responded to. Did you have more than one ban? Were you the one that always talked about having messages erased about the safety code or was that FHHubber? The only time I remember you getting a 30 day was prior to you being a LM, when you went on and on about how the LM forum should be visible to everyone, and you kept using the 'online user list' to see LM's reading threads there, copying the thread titles and posting them and speculating on 'what is going on up there that they are hiding from us'. In that case, it all fell into the negativity and recreational arguing that those in charge did not want flooding the system. I believe you were warned a couple times, I wish the PM boxes weren't limited there so we could hold on to all of them, limiting them to 10 was a bad decision on their part.The ironic part of the whole thing, is you latter became an LM, and saw for yourself there was nothing special going on, there was actually hardly any activity, and of what there was, was a lot of rules violations that the admins did not take care of policing.


  24. #149

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    RE: AMA to close the AMA Discussions Forum

    One's I can answer...

    ORIGINAL: bradpaul

    What was the process to vet a new moderator?>>

    1. Any warm body that volunteers (even if previously banned on the forum?)

    >>

    1. It appears so. It's not like people were coming out of the woodwork to offer their time or effort. As I recall, after Muroc left, I asked many to take on the positon, I believe including you. I would have LOVED for one of the people that trash talked me to get involved as well, to see how it really worked, and what went on and what they would have to deal with. But they all said no.

    What was the process to review reported posts or to close threads?>>

    1. At moderator discression?
    2. A review with staff?

    Before I became a moderator, removed messages were deleted, they could no longer be seen, they could not be retrieved or reviewed. Shortly after I started, per my suggestion, messages that were removed were sent to the recycle bin, which meant that they stayed there and mods/admins saw red text saying the message was recycled, by who, and what reason. Any mod/admin could click on that text and see the original message. In addition Muroc and I started putting threads in the moderators section about what was done and why, this was just about always done, sometimes it was missed as we were human. But we did our best to make sure each other and the admins always knew what was going on, allowing them to review each action made.

    As an example, I have attached and image where I removed a users post, because it was a response to a different post that was a rules violation. Much like the moderator said here on RCU, we tried to remove such posts that contained quotes of removed messages as it didn't then make sense in the flow, and was no longer relevant. Did we catch all of them? Nope.

    I also attached an example of notifying the admins of actions, this one where I actually agreed with what you said, but in the spirit of the rules and what the AMA wanted, removed it reguardless. It was never about if I agreed or not with the post.

    >>

    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Click image for larger version. 

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  25. #150
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    RE: AMA to close the AMA Discussions Forum


    ORIGINAL: bradpaul

    WHICH IS WORSE?

    1. It was all the fault of the moderator and the AMA did nothing about it?
    2. The AMA EC and staff knew what was going on and ignored the problem

    Can an organization that cannot even effectively manage and run a online forum be an effective and competent CBO in the new reality of government overview via the FAA?
    Brad,
    From the outside looking in I pretty much agree with your assessment. The β€œWHICH IS WORSE?” is troubling because there is no right answer; a failure is a failure period. As for the CBO/FAA question I certainly hope that is managed better than the forum was.

    There was some good discussions and straight information, especially in the insurance sub-forum that Ilona participated in that I would hate to see disappear. I would hope that after a cooling off period the EC would reconsider a new forum with some better management guidelines and/or format taking into consideration lessons learned from the failed one. Just a thought.

    Regards
    Frank
    It is not possible to write in such a way that cannot be misinterpreted by a reader determined to do so.


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