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  1. #1
    mongo's Avatar
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    giant scale(taken to extreme)

    http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/m_11250612/tm.htm

    links on that page do a good job of explaining it.

    hey K E,
    wonder if cletus and clems CBO ins will cover a model that size?
    Bottom Feeder Brother #13
    when they outlaw R/C, only outlaws will have R/C
    13 of 27

  2. #2

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    RE: giant scale(taken to extreme)

    Sure, why not?

    CBOas described in Pub. Law 112-95 does not include a "sells insurance" qualifier.

    Cletus


  3. #3

    RE: giant scale(taken to extreme)


    ORIGINAL: cj_rumley

    Sure, why not?Â*

    CBOÂ*as described in Pub. Law 112-95 does not include a ''sells insurance'' qualifier.

    Cletus

    Yep...and any organization that only accepts or recognizes insurance they offer should be disqualified as a candidate for a CBO status. Fly in the ointment...
    It is very important to understand that Jesus not only died for our sins but died because of our sins...even harder to understand now, exactly what were those sins???

  4. #4

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    RE: giant scale(taken to extreme)


    ORIGINAL: littlecrankshaf


    ORIGINAL: cj_rumley

    Sure, why not?

    CBOas described in Pub. Law 112-95 does not include a ''sells insurance'' qualifier.

    Cletus

    Yep...and any organization that only accepts or recognizes insurance they offer should be disqualified as a candidate for a CBO status. Fly in the ointment...
    If you are referring to the AMA ................

    They don't "recognize"any insurance unless it petains to theirs, nor should they be expected to. The clubs, more specifically the land owner, is the one who will or will not "recognize" any insurance.

    K-Bob. The K is silent. \"The only time you can have too much fuel is if you are on fire\"

  5. #5

    RE: giant scale(taken to extreme)


    ORIGINAL: K-Bob


    ORIGINAL: littlecrankshaf


    ORIGINAL: cj_rumley

    Sure, why not?Â*

    CBOÂ*as described in Pub. Law 112-95 does not include a ''sells insurance'' qualifier.

    Cletus

    Yep...and any organization that only accepts or recognizes insurance they offer should be disqualified as a candidate for a CBO status. Fly in the ointment...

    If you are referring to the AMA ................

    They don't ''recognize''Â*any insurance unless it petains to theirs, nor should they be expected to. The clubs, more specifically the land owner, is the one who will or will not ''recognize'' any insurance.

    Technically you have a point but be-that-as-it-may, most AMAers truly believe just by virtue of being an AMA club only AMA's insurance is good enough...
    It is very important to understand that Jesus not only died for our sins but died because of our sins...even harder to understand now, exactly what were those sins???

  6. #6
    Hossfly's Avatar
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    RE: giant scale(taken to extreme)


    ORIGINAL: littlecrankshaf
    //SNIP//

    Yep...and any organization that only accepts or recognizes insurance they offer should be disqualified as a candidate for a CBO status. Fly in the ointment...

    Technically you have a point but be-that-as-it-may, most AMAers truly believe just by virtue of being an AMA club only AMA's insurance is good enough...
    Sorry, however I have to disagree with your position. The AMA Liability is in effect every day for any current AMA member. Current liability insurance coverage cannot be factually stated for any other individual. One cannot be certain that any other flier, non-AMA, has liability insurance current on any given day.
    If said flier is an AMA member, then that person has a liability policy in effect that is much larger than the average Home Owner's or most Personal Umbrella policies. In addition that policy is paid up to the end of any calendar year.

    With some of the "ya-hoos" I observe on the flying fields these days, I am glad that I know they have a current liability policy to assist anyone they might hit with an errant model airplane, especially me.
    Horrace Cain AMA L-93

    Peace is the brief glorious moment in history when everyone stands around reloading.\" T. Jefferson

  7. #7

    RE: giant scale(taken to extreme)


    ORIGINAL: Hossfly



    With some of the ''ya-hoos'' I observe on the flying fields these days, I am glad that I know they have a current liability policy to assist anyone they might hit with an errant model airplane, especially me.

    Actually the liability insurance is meant to assist the one that causes the accident...financially.

    If you're involved in any accident you better have your own health care in place to insure proper care because liability may take years to decide. But with that being said, forcing others to have some type of insurance has become popular today... Case in point; Our President got elected by many people agreeing that everyone should pay to play instead of true individual responsibility.

    I guess I'm just old fashion... I buy the insurance I need, for the things I need, and am perfectly fine with holding my insurers to task. Of course, part of the agreement is that I'll oblige my insurer when they wear-out whomever they deem should pay them back for damages the other party caused.


    Free enterprise works great given a chance...but socialism is an easier sell... How sad!
    It is very important to understand that Jesus not only died for our sins but died because of our sins...even harder to understand now, exactly what were those sins???

  8. #8
    mongo's Avatar
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    RE: giant scale(taken to extreme)

    all other arguments aside, it was a pretty good show.

    never figured this to dissolve into an insurance fight, of the things we could pik at on it.
    Bottom Feeder Brother #13
    when they outlaw R/C, only outlaws will have R/C
    13 of 27

  9. #9
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    RE: giant scale(taken to extreme)

    re: posts 1 & 2

    We dont know if some Clem&CletusFlyinPosse cbo will insure it,
    we dont know if some DIYD cbo will insure it,
    we dont know if some RCU cbo will insure it,
    but we do know that muncie WONT.

    If the test of being a cbo is to not insure what AMA wont insure,
    then C&CFP et al meet the challenge on this one
    Congress dont require a magazine or insurance in their cbo definition
    (yet... we havent seen the results of folks working to get the totally permissive definition to be 'better defined'
    to have more exclusions of folks that otherwise fit in the permissive definition we have now)



    re Hoss
    The AMA Liability is in effect every day for any current AMA member. Current liability insurance coverage cannot be factually stated for any other individual
    if you can factually state in declarative narrative that muncies insurance can be counted on
    for commercial sales demo flights by current good standing AMA members at AMA club fields,
    then you are better at this game than Ilona
    because thems at muncie wouldnt state that fact when asked (and answered) directly

    Hoss, the question is not whether the AMA insurance is in effect,
    but rather which side of the many many "Might"s, "Shouldnt"s and "Maybe"s in AMA insurance "rules"
    any particular flight operation is subjectively perceived by muncie to be on

  10. #10

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    RE: giant scale(taken to extreme)

    One thing to think about there is no way toguarantee any insurance will always be in effect be it AMA or any other insurance.
    Ira d

  11. #11

    RE: giant scale(taken to extreme)

    ORIGINAL: mongo

    all other arguments aside, it was a pretty good show.

    never figured this to dissolve into an insurance fight, of the things we could pik at on it.

    [:@] And upstairs in the "Radios and equipment" subforum it has dissolved into a good ol Futaba VS Spektrum brawl ...

    For all of the interesting technological aspects of remote controlling a jetliner to a controlled crash , it's kinda sad to see folks use this event to once again find differences of opinions to argue over .

    Me ? , , , I just wonder how they actually interfaced the radio to the required control surfaces . Servos activating valves to control pressure to flight surface controls ? Tied into the plane's flight computers directly ? Into the Autopilot maybe ?

    I see alot more here of interest than just mere fodder for the same ol arguing points ............

  12. #12

    RE: giant scale(taken to extreme)


    ORIGINAL: init4fun

    ORIGINAL: mongo

    all other arguments aside, it was a pretty good show.

    never figured this to dissolve into an insurance fight, of the things we could pik at on it.

    [:@] And upstairs in the ''Radios and equipment'' subforum it has dissolved into a good ol Futaba VS Spektrum brawl ...

    For all of the interesting technological aspects of remote controlling a jetliner to a controlled crash , it's kinda sad to see folks use this event to once again find differences of opinions to argue over .

    Me ? , , , I just wonder how they actually interfaced the radio to the required control surfaces . Servos activating valves to control pressure to flight surface controls ? Tied into the plane's flight computers directly ? Into the Autopilot maybe ?

    I see alot more here of interest than just mere fodder for the same ol arguing points ............
    Well, at least someone isn't shouting out about how such a thing could be used by terrorists and therefore should not have been allowed... Where are those terrorized people at?
    It is very important to understand that Jesus not only died for our sins but died because of our sins...even harder to understand now, exactly what were those sins???

  13. #13
    mongo's Avatar
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    RE: giant scale(taken to extreme)

    init,

    it appeared that they built a set of powered hydraulic actuators that were mounted in the passenger cabin through the floor and clamped to the control actuation cables running to each used surface.
    wonder how many folks were aware that the 727 was a cable operated flight system?
    would probably be easier to interface with the newer jets fly by wire systems.
    Bottom Feeder Brother #13
    when they outlaw R/C, only outlaws will have R/C
    13 of 27

  14. #14

    RE: giant scale(taken to extreme)


    [8D] I'm really glad that no one has used the Terrorist angle on this story too ! That is the last thing our hobby needs , and I'm happy that at least up here in the North East , the thing with the guy from Ashland Massachusetts was handled well in our media . On every news report I saw about it , they made specific reference to the fact that normal aircraft modelers were not to be feared , and that our hobby ain't to blame for that one idiots actions . I really hope we get to a place where since a "terrorist" can use just about anything to "terrorize" , that we blame the jerk responsible rather than the technology he happens to misuse to commit his illegal actions .

    So ,

    Back to the RC full scale ,

    I find it amazing that they had a human pilot take it off , turn control over to the RC , and then bail out leaving the jet in control of the RC . That's brilliant in the amount of functions that didn't need to be remote controlled ! Everything from starting the engines to the flaps , slats , and landing gear didn't need to be RC'ed , leaving the need of just the 4 basic controls rudder elevator ailerons and throttle . That must have been incredible to be the one holding that TX ! ......

  15. #15

    RE: giant scale(taken to extreme)


    ORIGINAL: mongo

    init,

    it appeared that they built a set of powered hydraulic actuators that were mounted in the passenger cabin through the floor and clamped to the control actuation cables running to each used surface.
    wonder how many folks were aware that the 727 was a cable operated flight system?
    would probably be easier to interface with the newer jets fly by wire systems.
    [8D] That must have been a blast to set up !

    It's that kind of "Gearhead" stuff I've always been interested in , and I appreciate your description . And yes , Since I got hired into an entirely different industry after getting my A&P , and only working on cessnas and pipers and such , I never knew a 727 was cable operated . Amazing . I know what a pain cable adjustments could be on the small stuff , I'll bet it's outright complicated to do on an aircraft of that size .

  16. #16

    RE: giant scale(taken to extreme)


    ORIGINAL: init4fun


    [8D] I'm really glad that no one has used the Terrorist angle on this story too ! That is the last thing our hobby needs , and I'm happy that at least up here in the North East , the thing with the guy from Ashland Massachusetts was handled well in our media . On every news report I saw about it , they made specific reference to the fact that normal aircraft modelers were not to be feared , and that our hobby ain't to blame for that one idiots actions . I really hope we get to a place where since a ''terrorist'' can use just about anything to ''terrorize'' , that we blame the jerk responsible rather than the technology he happens to misuse to commit his illegal actions .

    So ,

    Back to the RC full scale ,

    I find it amazing that they had a human pilot take it off , turn control over to the RC , and then bail out leaving the jet in control of the RC . That's brilliant in the amount of functions that didn't need to be remote controlled ! Everything from starting the engines to the flaps , slats , and landing gear didn't need to be RC'ed , leaving the need of just the 4 basic controls rudder elevator ailerons and throttle . That must have been incredible to be the one holding that TX ! ......
    "I really hope we get to a place where since a ''terrorist'' can use just about anything to ''terrorize'' , that we blame the jerk responsible rather than the technology he happens to misuse to commit his illegal actions ."

    "That must have been incredible to be the one holding that TX ! ......"

    Thumbs up!

    Yep, I'd have loved to fly that sucker too...What a lucky guy he was to get that chance...

    With terrorists or terrorist actions you either get skerred and withdraw into the timid person you are or get mad and chose to kill all the SOBs... I get mad...
    It is very important to understand that Jesus not only died for our sins but died because of our sins...even harder to understand now, exactly what were those sins???

  17. #17

    RE: giant scale(taken to extreme)

    [8D] Well Said LCS , and I agree 100% !

    I have believed from moment one of the "Patriot Act" that we , the good people who ARE living life right by not harming others , are being unfairly punished for the acts of the few notorious criminals of our time . Is it right that a hobby such as our should be even considered to be in jeopardy just cause one jerk was gonna (he thought) use one to commit mayhem , hell no ! What happens when the "terrorists" start using CARS as a weapon , are we gonna take all them away too ? We , as a free people , have given up far too much to a government all to willing to take , and things like temporary RC flying bans are a sad result . We need to get some level heads into power quick , before we loose everything we once stood for : The right of a free and honest man to live his life free of restrictions based upon the actions of others .

    Damnit , I went and got political again . Oops .

  18. #18

    RE: giant scale(taken to extreme)



    Oh , and another thing :


    Can you imagine the sound that sucker made when it hit ? I saw a guy put a 50cc sized gasser straight in at the club I belong to and that made a fairly loud thump , but that jet musta been like the worst RC crash X1000 for sound ! I'll bet the ground shook a bit , that's for sure .

    Did it have "black boxes" ? ...... I'll bet if so the engineers who design and build them would love to see em .

  19. #19

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    RE: giant scale(taken to extreme)


    ORIGINAL: init4fun



    Oh , and another thing :


    Can you imagine the sound that sucker made when it hit ? I saw a guy put a 50cc sized gasser straight in at the club I belong to and that made a fairly loud thump , but that jet musta been like the worst RC crash X1000 for sound ! I'll bet the ground shook a bit , that's for sure .

    Did it have "black boxes" ? ...... I'll bet if so the engineers who design and build them would love to see em .

    Yes it had black boxes the program showed them being removed after the crash.
    Ira d

  20. #20
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    RE: giant scale(taken to extreme)


    ORIGINAL: mongo

    init,

    it appeared that they built a set of powered hydraulic actuators that were mounted in the passenger cabin through the floor and clamped to the control actuation cables running to each used surface.
    wonder how many folks were aware that the 727 was a cable operated flight system?
    would probably be easier to interface with the newer jets fly by wire systems.
    IT WASN'T a total cable system. The 727 Flight Cable system was an emergency system for no-hydraulics. I never lost both hyd. systems in a 727. Several times I lost one, but not both. Did lose both in the 737 once, and once in a DC-8, but not in the 727. There was never a better designed Hyd. or Electric system than the B-727. OTOH, the 727 suffered losses early on which, IMO, were simply the result of pilots that came from props, DC-6 etc. simply were not up to speed on flying (especially approach and landing) a turbine engined machine with high-speed characteristics. The 737 system was close to the 727, but it had a flaw that could cause all fluid to escape if a leak happened in a sudden break such as an engine driven HYD. pump shatters. BTDT. No one allowed discussion of that flaw, nor did they when the Yaw Damper problem came to light. They simply shattered the "light Bulb."

    The DC-10 hydraulic system was a criminal system resulting in the loss of an AA airplane and pasengers at Ohare, and the UAL one over Iowa. The "-10" back-up hyd. system used the same fluid as the main system. One leak and POOF!" No check valves. In reality the others also used the same system fluid but they had a much better method of trapping and isolating back-up fluid for the "B" Systems. When I went through the 10 school, I was appalled at the 10 hyd. system. Of course that was not allowed to be discussed! So glad I was off that machine in a very short time.

    Back to subject: I did not see that topic presentation. The 727 had hydraulic flight control systemS ! PILOTS had no problems with the "72". Airplane Drivers, well that is a whole 'nother story!!! I suppose they do OK in these wired computer machines. I would hate to have had to let a d-n computer do my flying. [:'(]
    Horrace Cain AMA L-93

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  21. #21
    KidEpoxy's Avatar
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    RE: giant scale(taken to extreme)

    mongo said
    wonder how many folks were aware that the 727 was a cable operated flight system?
    cables?
    I didnt know they had cables in there too

    ... so do the pilots clip on a CL handle in case of emergency

  22. #22
    RCU Forum Manager/Admin RCKen's Avatar
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    RE: giant scale(taken to extreme)

    Ok guys, I'm putting an end to this discussion. I was keeping an eye on this thread to see if it actually pertained to the AMA, but after following the discussion I don't see any REAL tie in to the AMA. Since this is already being discussed elsewhere on RCU I see no reason to move this thread elsewhere.
    Thread closed.
    Ken
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  23. #23
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    RE: giant scale(taken to extreme)


    ORIGINAL: littlecrankshaf


    ORIGINAL: init4fun

    ORIGINAL: mongo

    all other arguments aside, it was a pretty good show.

    never figured this to dissolve into an insurance fight, of the things we could pik at on it.

    [:@] And upstairs in the ''Radios and equipment'' subforum it has dissolved into a good ol Futaba VS Spektrum brawl ...

    For all of the interesting technological aspects of remote controlling a jetliner to a controlled crash , it's kinda sad to see folks use this event to once again find differences of opinions to argue over .

    Me ? , , , I just wonder how they actually interfaced the radio to the required control surfaces . Servos activating valves to control pressure to flight surface controls ? Tied into the plane's flight computers directly ? Into the Autopilot maybe ?

    I see alot more here of interest than just mere fodder for the same ol arguing points ............
    Well, at least someone isn't shouting out about how such a thing could be used by terrorists and therefore should not have been allowed... Where are those terrorized people at?
    OMG, you've now given someone an idea! OOPS


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