littlecrankshaf

My Feedback: (58)

Seems an interesting exchange.

MajorTomski

The seven questions in post #48 were totally in line with both the OP and your subsequent statements. They were asked specifically to gain clarification and expansion of your statement: “I will request his surrender of the transmitter.� And asked follow up questions as to the consequences of you asking for that surrender. Your response above failed to either adress or answer most of those questions.
So let’s look at and clairfy some of the questions again:

#1. Again, you apparently advocate that it within a CD’s responsibility and authority to walk up to a pilot who is flying and obviously having problems controlling the large RC model, then further distract and confuse him by demanding he hand you, the CD, the transmitter is this correct or not?

That action is going to result in three responses; he actually hands you the transmitter, he ignores you and keeps flying and as most of us would do he tells you in one form or another to get lost.

#2, (also implied by Andy in post #7) If he does hand the transmitter to you and the plane crashes; do you intend to pay or be responsible for the damage?

#3 what are you going to do if he tells you to bug off? Start a fight and try to physically take the transmitter away from him? Boy that's going to add a bunch to improving the safety of the situation. Ok so ignore the fight part; what are you, as the CD going to do if he either ignores you or tells you to get lost while he’s still flying?

The following two questions were attempting to find where you think your limitations as a CD end. Where does your safety responsibility end and the safety reality begin? You’ve already stated that in the name of safety, you have a responsibility to as someone to surrender a transmitter, following that logic then you might feel entitled to as for other things:

#4. So he lands and he's pissed; do you take his car keys away till he calms down? After all he’s upset and he could be a safety hazard to someone.

#5 if he has a legally executed conceal carry do you try to take his gun away from him?
I asked just to see how extreme your position on safety would go. This is one question you did sort of address, but as with most of your posts the subject changed from the safety of the event attendees to focus on you.


#6. Just how much pushing and shoving are you willing to do to make your point? Ok I’ll give you credit for one out of seven, you did sort of address this question.

Then my final question was a if it’s good for the goose... reversal, I apologize for the typo, the original edited post was done from my smart phone and this page is not smart phone friendly:
#7. Or let's turn the table, you're flying @ mythe (should have read at my) contest & I think you're flying poorly: Are you going to hand over your transmitter to me as CD?

Then init4fun asked you a very pertinent follow up on now that you have a transmitter in your hand, you are now in violation of the safety code, please tell us how you reconcile this now apparent willful violation?

So is there any chance you could just simply, clearly answer the questions?

I'm sorry, one last question; Did you happen to notice back in post #47 that Steve Kaluf, former AMA Technical Director also thinks your approach of asking the pilot to surrender the transmitter would have been the wrong way to go?

And the BLOCK is off so go right ahead and respond away.

Top_Gunn

My Feedback: (6)

You need to find a better lawyer. I can't think of any legal rule that makes someone flying a model financially responsible for anything that happens with it. If you are negligent, sure. If you aren't, no. And negligence is a question of fact, to be determined by the jury.

Consider this example: right after you take over, the wings fall off the plane because of a construction flaw. Or someone else turns on the same frequency and you lose control. On no legal theory I know of could you be liable for any resulting damage.

littlecrankshaf

My Feedback: (58)

Hmmm...are we mixing criminal law with civil law??? Just asking... since civil law is a minefield of nuances....otherwise known as a crap-shoot.

Yes, grabbing someone's transmitter, especially against their will, will expose you to liability...no way around that.

init4fun

Just Curious , Are you a Lawyer who handles personal injury lawsuits ? Cause the guy I asked IS just such a Lawyer , and I believe his response over yours .

When you , as the authority in charge of the event , take over control of that flying model you also take over liability for anything that model does till it's safely back on the ground . period .

And you are now flying a model at an event that you are not cleared to by the AMA rule on having flown it once before the event . I have re read the rule and there are no "emergency CD takeover" contingencies written into the rule .

Anyone else ?

cj_rumley

It's not for a jury to decide if there was negligence unless somebody is being tried for it.....so at the least, the process is the punishment. Also, a CD is an agent of AMA. If he gets sued, likely AMA will be also.

Bryan McLarty

Gentlemen:
This has become quite an interesting thread to say the least!
I want to interject some thoughts and stress a very important point to my original post and point of question.

If any of you were in the rare situation where you had the opportunity to witness, quickly assess and judge a series of dangerous violations and could act without hesitation, would you not do ANYTHING to avert a potential disaster? What if the elderly pilot lost control and flew into a spectator crowd or the pit area full of pilots? What if your family, your child, or your grandchild were in that crowd?

Is there a point in which you think to yourself, "liability and cost of the airplane be damned"! I HAVE TO DO SOMETHING! Or, are we such a litigious society that those thoughts have been pummeled from our minds and sense of "doing the right thing"? Has it become a world of what happens, just happens and it's that other guys fault. Sucks to be him! Glad it's not me!

Top_Gunn

My Feedback: (6)

I am a lawyer who has co-authored a book on personal injury law, though it's not my main area of interest.

There is no such legal concept as "taking over liability." And while there are areas of law where liability is "strict," those areas do not include taking over flying a model from someone having trouble. It's certainly true that you risk being sued if something goes awry. And that's no fun. even if you win in the end. But it is not the case that you will necessarily lose.

(On another matter, I have no idea what LCS's post means, so I won't respond to it. I think it's clear that all the rest of us are talking about civil law.)

littlecrankshaf

My Feedback: (58)

Was there some word in particular you had a problem with??? I re-read my post and I stand by it...Well...if I understand it correctly...

MajorTomski

Bryan I think the actual probabilty to be in the right place at the right time to actually affect the outcome of an event is next to infinity. I was standing as spotter for a young friend at an event a decade or so ago. He lost control of the helicopter and it crashed, still flailing nearly at our feet. More of an instinct to protect a child I picked him up, spun around and carried him away from the flailing mess. All the time he's trying to twist back around in my arms and "control" the out of control heli. His radio wouldn't even shut down the engine.

init4fun

[8D] Thank you for the answer Al .

Gee , In re reading my above post , It sure does look in print a heck of a lot more wiseassed than I had intended it to . For that you have my apology .

The Lawyer I spoke with made reference to the fact that since the CD had made the determination that the flyer was unfit and thus assumed control of the model , it would be him who were sued if God forbid the model were to then strike someone or something while under the CD's command . There couldn't possibly be any negligence on the model owner's part since he is no longer in control of the craft . After the dust settles it would be the guy holding the TX who bore the end responsibility for demanding the TX from the pilot and hopefully the AMA would come to his attempted legal rescue .

I do find it interesting that in only two places of all the AMA documents I've searched is there mention of the removal of a pilot while the model is flying , and these are the FPV primary LOS pilot taking over for the video goggle wearing pilot should the model begin to stray from the primary pilot's LOS and the "Buddy Box" training of a new flyer . In both situations BOTH pilots are already holding transmitters and are planning on (the possibility) of handing over control to the other pilot . Notice how there is NO passing of a TX from one set of hands to the next while the model flies ? This simple passing of the TX may just be enough negligence to get them BOTH in legal hot water should the unthinkable happen . As an open question to all members , if any AMA document exists where it is specifically condoned to pass a flying model's transmitter from one set of hands to the next I'd darned well like to see it , as I've got several hours into the search and havnt found such mention yet ????

Bryan McLarty

Major:

You may be right in that its all being in the right place at the right time. But, hey, I WAS there and it COULDHAVE played out this way. Fortunately it did not. I realize that this is all somewhat hypothetical, but none the less, I think it isworthy of consideration and discussion.

Not that I am askingto be judged on my actions by my CD peers, but simply pose the question and have some other experienced CD weigh in on what they think.

I appreciate and thank you for yourinput!

Bryan McLarty

init:

Could it not be argued that it was the model owner's responsibility to be able to fly his aircraft safely in accordance with the safety declaration form that he signed? He is the one who elected to take the plane off andget into the unsafepredicament in the first place. Even though it MAYNEVERHAPPEN, the recovering pilot could have conceivably averted amore serious disaster than wrecking some guys airplane!SOME liability shouldstill reside with the pilot who got into the messat hand and created a dangerous situation.

Man this thread is getting good!

init4fun

[8D] Hi Bryan ,

Yes Sir , the Law is a scary system to have to deal with , and I'll bet your right on in your assessment . If the unthinkable were to happen , the model's owner , the CD who took over as the flyer , the manufacturer , and just about anyone else associated with it would likely be named in the suit . It would appear that modern day law is very much "throw it all against the wall and see what sticks" . Sure , they may only end up with a judgement against the one truly responsible party , but all the rest will be dragged through the same proce$$ as well . Many folks do use the possible liability angle when refusing to do such things as run events or even train new pilots , I've heard these concerns at the field where I fly . A shame to see folks still having such fear in the legal system but in reality it's a total crapshoot as to whose future would be ruined or not by the time the law was done with em .

s3nfo

My Feedback: (14)

You have misunderstood the rule, quoted below:

3. Model aircraft will not be flown in AMA sanctioned events, air shows or model demonstrations unless:
(a) The aircraft, control system and pilot skills have successfully demonstrated all maneuvers intended or anticipated prior to the specific event.

The model is to have previously flown and demonstrated all maneuvers that "it" will do at a sanctioned event. This does not mean the person on the sticks has to have flown the model previously, only that the model is to have flown previously AND the pilot has demonstrated sufficient skill to control any aircraft.

Top_Gunn

My Feedback: (6)

Init:

I don't think we really disagree about anything here. In practice, when things go badly astray, everybody around gets sued and then a multi-year brawl ensues. Some years ago there was a fire in a supper club that had locked its emergency exits, so a lot of people died. Obviously the idiots who locked the doors and whoever started the fire, and whoever employed those people got sued. But so did over a thousand others. Like the companies that made the furniture and the table cloths (could have been made of stuff that didn't burn so fast.) And the people who made the stuff the furniture and table cloths were made of (ditto). And so on. If you go around not doing anything that will get you sued, you'd probably have to live in a cave and never go outside, and I wouldn't take bets on that.

airwolf81

My Feedback: (12)

So horrance with all due respect sir if you request for the pilot to surrender the transmitter would you pay for the Model if you crash it or damage it ??

kwblake

Wow.[X(]

littlecrankshaf

My Feedback: (58)

I tend to agree with init4fun's rendering as the rule, as presented here, is so darn ambiguous one might even conclude that if grandma farts there will be no apple pie...

init4fun

[8D] Thank You LCS , and with all due respect to Jerry ,

I believe the intent of that rule is for the pilot and plane to have preformed a preliminary "shake down" flight , together , prior to being flown at a crowded event so as to familiarize the pilot with that particular aircraft . As we all know , certain aircraft have their own quirks of flight and a crowded contest is no place for any pilot , CD or not , to be experiencing an unfamiliar aircraft for the very first time .


This is why I spent my working years as a mechanic , there is no different interpretation of "broken" . It either is or it isn't . and if is IS broken , I ended up repairing it . no negotiating required .

warbird_1

My Feedback: (61)

You are the CD . period . you volunteer to assume the liability of the event. If you felt "within reason" to ground the pilot ,then that's your duty to do so. And besides .. if his spotter didn't have AMA then he should not have been on the flight line period . you did the right thing and the wrong thing . the spotter should not have been out there and you did the right thing by asking the pilot respectfully to land.