AMA Discussions Discuss AMA policies, decisions & any other AMA related topics here.

Embracing new technologies

Reply
Old 01-20-2014, 04:07 AM
  #251
littlecrankshaf
Thread Starter
 
littlecrankshaf's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: here
Posts: 5,413
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default

What I find hard to reconcile is the notion flying FPV "in accordance with AMA 550" is fine with flying fields that are smaller...so small in fact that even pattern flying isn't permitted...but at the one admittedly expansive enough for pattern flying is too confining to accommodate FPV... I think we need some Mr. wizard to 'splain that.
littlecrankshaf is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 01-20-2014, 04:23 AM
  #252
bruceal
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: West Haverstraw, NY
Posts: 144
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default

Sure, Mr. Wizard says keep it "line of sight see and avoid."
bruceal is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 01-20-2014, 04:25 AM
  #253
littlecrankshaf
Thread Starter
 
littlecrankshaf's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: here
Posts: 5,413
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default

Lol ...
littlecrankshaf is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 01-20-2014, 04:48 AM
  #254
804
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: sheridan, IN
Posts: 1,167
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by combatpigg View Post
All it takes is a little MORE common sense and a little bit LESS "over zealousness" about this hobby to understand why you needed to take the action that you did. Before drone models arrived on the scene, were there ANY instances you know of where a flyer of "Conventional RC" was flying that far out of bounds on purpose...?
Your confused.
bruceal stated here,
"We have no problem with quadcopters and planes with cameras. But like I said, our field sits across from an active heliport, the largest marina on the east coast and a county park all on the shores of the Hudson River. We have a great view of it all at our field. The owner of the heliport had alot of doubt when we started up our field. They used to fly over it on their landing approach. I had him up to the field a number of times to show him that we fly in a specific area in front of the flightline and not beyond certain limits. After five years, we now have their trust that we are responsible and come down when we hear a helicopter approaching. In the past we did have some people flying FPV and they were unable to follow the rules. They weren't trying to break the rules but it did happen. In our case we just can't have that. We have competitive pattern fliers at the field that use up alot of air space as well as 42% stuff. They present no problem, so it's not like we live in a sterile environment. We as a club try to accomodate what we can. But I'm afraid that FPV is something that we cannot. Like I said, I don't know many people that would want to invest in FPV just to fly on the club field."
that he took action based on accidental flying out of bounds.

Maybe you're thinking of his other club, where someone flew out over the golf course.
But, that club, and a third cub he flies at, still allow FPV.
They don't allow pattern, no room for that, but FPV is ok.
Of course bruceal's club, the one he founded, is president of, and responsible for, allows pattern,
but not FPV.

Hope this clears it up for ya'.
804 is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 01-20-2014, 05:13 AM
  #255
bruceal
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: West Haverstraw, NY
Posts: 144
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default

The club with the golf course incident dropped FPV. The other allows it, but only if flown within the 550 guidelines. They fly at an active transfer station, and across the road they have the 2nd largest mall in the country. So for now it's allowed, but any hint of someone leaving the field and that's it. Nobody wants to be the bad guy but there is alot at stake here.
bruceal is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 01-20-2014, 08:01 AM
  #256
littlecrankshaf
Thread Starter
 
littlecrankshaf's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: here
Posts: 5,413
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default

Sounds like you may need to be even more proactive. A ban on the giant scale and pattern flying would help.
littlecrankshaf is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 01-20-2014, 09:14 AM
  #257
bruceal
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: West Haverstraw, NY
Posts: 144
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default

Attitudes like yours is exactly why people like me won't bend.
bruceal is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 01-20-2014, 09:26 AM
  #258
littlecrankshaf
Thread Starter
 
littlecrankshaf's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: here
Posts: 5,413
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by bruceal View Post
Attitudes like yours is exactly why people like me won't bend.
My "attitude" has a bearing on your sense of what's the right thing to do?? Wow, I didn't know I had that kind of influence on people.
littlecrankshaf is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 01-20-2014, 09:45 AM
  #259
littlecrankshaf
Thread Starter
 
littlecrankshaf's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: here
Posts: 5,413
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default

FWIW all this banter begs the question; how might I adjust my attitude to make you more acceptive of FPV?
littlecrankshaf is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 01-20-2014, 11:05 AM
  #260
combatpigg
 
combatpigg's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: arlington, WA
Posts: 19,891
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by bruceal View Post
Here is that video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2BGzaSdRSK4 As you can see, we are in a nice area with a great view of the Hudson River. We did allow FPV at one point but I found a guy flying over a sewer plant behind the flightline one day.
804...I'm not confused. I'm also willing to bet that bruceal has never found and over-zealous idiot flying conventional RC over the sewer plant on purpose. People rarely get caught the very first time they break the rules, but like I tried to explain earlier it's a waste of time for me to try to explain likely bad outcomes to certain types of people.

Last edited by combatpigg; 01-20-2014 at 11:09 AM.
combatpigg is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 01-20-2014, 11:21 AM
  #261
littlecrankshaf
Thread Starter
 
littlecrankshaf's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: here
Posts: 5,413
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by combatpigg View Post
8 certain types of people.
Certain types of people??? are you implying that FPVers are inherently the wrong type of people?

Yea I know...we've all see the videos often cited to make some case against them bad FPVers but we also need to consider they have "video" by pure virtue of what they do. I contend the average FPVer is no more of a risk to our hobby as the other average joe... I have witnessed many times conventional modeling ran very close to a disastrous incident. The FPVers I know are very conscientious of safety and I find them no more, maybe less of a risk than the average modeler...
littlecrankshaf is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 01-20-2014, 11:26 AM
  #262
littlecrankshaf
Thread Starter
 
littlecrankshaf's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: here
Posts: 5,413
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default

BTW...I am not biased since I do not do or have any immediate plans to do FPV.
littlecrankshaf is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 01-20-2014, 12:27 PM
  #263
littlecrankshaf
Thread Starter
 
littlecrankshaf's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: here
Posts: 5,413
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default

Also, earlier on I noticed the model doing the video "Here is that video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2BGzaSdRSK4 " was apparently behind the flightline and essentially over the marina, other roads and buildings at times...Just wanted to see if anyone would mention that... no one did!

Now, the reason for that selectivity I find very interesting to say the least but more importantly it is the problem we face going forward... I've met the enemy...and it is US!
littlecrankshaf is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 01-20-2014, 01:52 PM
  #264
bruceal
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: West Haverstraw, NY
Posts: 144
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default

As the enemy I can tell you that I was there when we filmed that video and the plane never left the flying area. I would like to be able to tell you what camera was used but I have no idea. The plane is a Telemaster with the motor up on the wing and he put the camera up front. The camera pans and tilts. With all I have been saying do you think that I would post something that contradicts myself? Not this Wizard!
bruceal is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 01-21-2014, 12:36 PM
  #265
Sport_Pilot
 
Sport_Pilot's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Acworth, GA
Posts: 16,908
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default

Quote:
no one did!
I didn't notice because I kept falling asleep, just too boring! But with a camera that pans and tilts, I cannot see how you would know that it is actually flying over buildings withouth knowing which way the camera is pointing.

Last edited by Sport_Pilot; 01-21-2014 at 12:38 PM.
Sport_Pilot is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 01-21-2014, 02:14 PM
  #266
combatpigg
 
combatpigg's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: arlington, WA
Posts: 19,891
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sport_Pilot View Post
I didn't notice because I kept falling asleep, just too boring! But with a camera that pans and tilts, I cannot see how you would know that it is actually flying over buildings withouth knowing which way the camera is pointing.
Yes, flying per AMA rules within the confines of the flying field, over the same inanimate objects, over and over and over with $1000s worth of drone capable equipment would tend to get pretty boring, pretty quick.
Flying the same FPV equipment over playgrounds packed full of kids, freeways packed full of motor vehicles, stadiums full of spectators....now that's how you breathe excitement back into the hobby of flying RC Dronecraft.
combatpigg is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 01-21-2014, 05:07 PM
  #267
littlecrankshaf
Thread Starter
 
littlecrankshaf's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: here
Posts: 5,413
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default

Man that's some good panning and tilting to be able to see behind the flight stations and the far side of the boats... Its funny...no kidding, hilarious how the brethren come here to offer a defense when they face some of the same scrutiny they impose on others. If the panning and tilting defense is good, then its equally good for the FPVers...Hmmm... Funnier yet is to deride what I thought was a very good video in the process...

And the $1000s worth of drone capable equipment comment is funnier yet...in a sad way... Get a grip boys...the least of our worries has anything to do with hobbyists.... Take stock and look at what is really going on in this whacked world...

Oh BTW don't look out of the side widow of the plane while your flying... LOL
littlecrankshaf is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 01-21-2014, 05:12 PM
  #268
cj_rumley
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Aguanga, CA
Posts: 1,768
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default

Umm.................the model aircraft being discussed was a 'plank' (Telemaster) with a camera and there was no information disclosed to indicate that it was being flown by FPV or even equipped to operate in that mode.
cj_rumley is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 01-21-2014, 05:22 PM
  #269
littlecrankshaf
Thread Starter
 
littlecrankshaf's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: here
Posts: 5,413
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by cj_rumley View Post
Umm.................the model aircraft being discussed was a 'plank' (Telemaster) with a camera and there was no information disclosed to indicate that it was being flown by FPV or even equipped to operate in that mode.
I think we all realize that...the point is that the plankers and FPVers aren't all that much different if flown with the same considerations.
littlecrankshaf is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 01-21-2014, 07:32 PM
  #270
cj_rumley
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Aguanga, CA
Posts: 1,768
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by littlecrankshaf View Post
I think we all realize that...the point is that the plankers and FPVers aren't all that much different if flown with the same considerations.
It didn't appear so re CP's post #266 which I was replying too, apparently about the same time you were. I had not seen your post yet and so of course was not replying to it.

I agree with your observation so long as we are talking about FPVers that want to fly at AMA chartered sites and so abide by club and AMA rules, which I suspect is a small minority of the total population of FPV enthusiasts.

And while I'm being agreeable, I consider bruceal's position on banning FPV flying at a given site to be rational under the circumstances he has related. Not all sites can accommodate all types of models. Here in SoCal at least it is rare to find one that allows turbojets and even at the AMA's site Muncie I very much doubt that pylon racers can meet the posted sound level limit of 98dBA@9 ft without some serious rule bending.

cj
cj_rumley is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 01-21-2014, 07:34 PM
  #271
804
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: sheridan, IN
Posts: 1,167
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by bruceal View Post
As the enemy I can tell you that I was there when we filmed that video and the plane never left the flying area. I would like to be able to tell you what camera was used but I have no idea. The plane is a Telemaster with the motor up on the wing and he put the camera up front. The camera pans and tilts. With all I have been saying do you think that I would post something that contradicts myself? Not this Wizard!
Depth perception while flying being what it is, or more precisely, what it isn't, I think you are fooling yourself and trying to fool us.
I routinely drive up to our field and see guys flying over the road, out of bounds, at our club and when I mention it to them ( in a kindly way ), they always deny it.
I don't get upset about it, or threaten to ban them, or their aircraft, because I have been guilty as well.
And I'll bet everyone here, including Mr. Wizard, has too.
804 is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 01-21-2014, 10:38 PM
  #272
combatpigg
 
combatpigg's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: arlington, WA
Posts: 19,891
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by 804 View Post
Depth perception while flying being what it is, or more precisely, what it isn't, I think you are fooling yourself and trying to fool us.
I routinely drive up to our field and see guys flying over the road, out of bounds, at our club and when I mention it to them ( in a kindly way ), they always deny it.
I don't get upset about it, or threaten to ban them, or their aircraft, because I have been guilty as well.

And I'll bet everyone here, including Mr. Wizard, has too.

Every AMA field I have ever flown at has strict NO FLY boundaries at the extreme ends of the field. Busy highways / interstate 2 / houses / electrical power lines situated at the ends of these fields. I've been driving past these fields almost daily for over 25 years and also have spent countless hours and entire days at these fields and very rarely have I seen planes out of bounds.
In all this time I have NEVER seen RC flown way out of bounds on purpose, for the thrill of it.

Last edited by combatpigg; 01-21-2014 at 10:40 PM.
combatpigg is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 01-22-2014, 03:35 AM
  #273
littlecrankshaf
Thread Starter
 
littlecrankshaf's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: here
Posts: 5,413
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by combatpigg View Post
In all this time I have NEVER seen RC flown way out of bounds on purpose, for the thrill of it.
And I can say the exact same thing for the FPVing I've seen... So what's your point?

AMA has outlines for flying FPV, clubs have rules... As AMA members you agree to abide by those constraints... There is no reason FPV can't be allowed even at the smallest of small flying sites...just as anything else, the constraints are key...In your world, I gather from all you say, those dastardly FPVers can't conform as well as "regular" modelers.... Is that the core of the issue as you see it?
littlecrankshaf is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 01-22-2014, 04:17 AM
  #274
Luchnia
 
Luchnia's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Amelia, VA
Posts: 2,075
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by littlecrankshaf View Post
And I can say the exact same thing for the FPVing I've seen... So what's your point?

AMA has outlines for flying FPV, clubs have rules... As AMA members you agree to abide by those constraints... There is no reason FPV can't be allowed even at the smallest of small flying sites...just as anything else, the constraints are key...In your world, I gather from all you say, those dastardly FPVers can't conform as well as "regular" modelers.... Is that the core of the issue as you see it?
Me thinks, there goes crank making sense again. Rules that govern actions....interesting concept. Seems like some alien code or something. When will you put a halt to this absurd pretense of sensible discussion that might invoke thought in some people's minds?
Luchnia is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 01-22-2014, 04:17 AM
  #275
804
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: sheridan, IN
Posts: 1,167
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by combatpigg View Post
Every AMA field I have ever flown at has strict NO FLY boundaries at the extreme ends of the field. Busy highways / interstate 2 / houses / electrical power lines situated at the ends of these fields. I've been driving past these fields almost daily for over 25 years and also have spent countless hours and entire days at these fields and very rarely have I seen planes out of bounds.
In all this time I have NEVER seen RC flown way out of bounds on purpose, for the thrill of it.
Maybe rarely, but it does happen, as it appears to me the Telemaster in question flies over the marina and roads in the video.
Anybody honest with themselves knows it happens.
And, once again, I'll say that according to Mr. Wizard in the post I quoted you earlier, the FPV pilots did not fly out of bounds on purpose (at the club he is president of).
So why do you keep bringing up "flying out of bounds on purpose, for the thrill of it"?
804 is offline  
Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools
Search this Thread
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -8. The time now is 09:55 PM.