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  1. #26
    littlecrankshaf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Uncas View Post
    I think that FPV technology is great and shows great promise for our hobby, as long as the AMA stays within the boundaries of the hobby.
    I think the problem we see here (in this and similar forums) is that some modelers see the hobby evolving...In that vein they are sometimes afraid of the future and in their mind becoming somehow irrelevant... so they make cases, however outlandish to maintain the comfort they are accustom. I've experienced this phenomenon up close and personal with the advent of 3D and giant scale ARF modeling...Still being ostracized to some degree in many regards... so I understand the plight FPVers are experiencing now.
    It is very important to understand that Jesus not only died for our sins but died because of our sins...even harder to understand now, exactly what were those sins???

  2. #27

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    Whatever your beliefs and actions are regarding our hobby and advances in available technology, it would be wise not to poke your finger in the eye of the FAA, CIA, FBI, DHS or to "test" them unless you have a very secure place to hide. As for rules, one need only look at the evolution of what we consider the norm today. The automobile comes to mind. When cars began to appear, did not horse drawn wagon owners and car owners differ about who should use the trails and how they should be used.? Rules of the road resulted. Then safety issues appeared as people began to kill themselves with these infernal rigs. Ahhh -- seat belts, rubber bumpers, safety glass, turn signals, back up lights, brake lights, padded dashes, and the list goes on. Or how about in the manufacturing field. People lost fingers, hands, arms, eyes and their lives in some machinery until the safety folks got involved and shields and interlocks were installed on every moving piece of equipment. Are we better off today because of it? Certainly. But there are still folks that think seat belts are not needed or that smoking is actually good for you. That's their opinion and they are unlikely to change. Unfortunately, today we have an over abundance of lawyers that fall into this "rules" discussion as well. Back to the topic. I embrace anything in our hobby that results in someone having fun at the field flying whatever they "brung" so long as they follow the rules in place at that field. I do not embrace GPS guided flight however because the owner is not flying -- a computer is. I do embrace it for commercial purposes. What fun would it be to launch any number of GPS guided craft and than sit in a chair chatting with everyone until the darned thing landed. FPV is a different story and I embrace that technology. This is the beauty of a society where opinions can be expressed -- generally without physical or emotional harm.

  3. #28
    littlecrankshaf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by loopdeeloop View Post
    What fun would it be to launch any number of GPS guided craft and than sit in a chair chatting with everyone until the darned thing landed.
    These people seemed to enjoy it http://www.ted.com/talks/raffaello_d...adcopters.html
    It is very important to understand that Jesus not only died for our sins but died because of our sins...even harder to understand now, exactly what were those sins???

  4. #29
    Hossfly's Avatar
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    Excellent post and EXCELLENT +++ attitude there, Mr. Uncas. Hang with it!

    Seems other posts wiggled in while I was typing (fingering) my post to UNCAS.
    Last edited by Hossfly; 12-15-2013 at 12:30 PM. Reason: Too Slow here!
    Horrace Cain AMA L-93

    “Peace is the brief glorious moment in history when everyone stands around reloading.\" T. Jefferson

  5. #30

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    cool

  6. #31

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    Quote Originally Posted by littlecrankshaf View Post
    I think the problem we see here (in this and similar forums) is that some modelers see the hobby evolving...In that vein they are sometimes afraid of the future and in their mind becoming somehow irrelevant... so they make cases, however outlandish to maintain the comfort they are accustom. I've experienced this phenomenon up close and personal with the advent of 3D and giant scale ARF modeling...Still being ostracized to some degree in many regards... so I understand the plight FPVers are experiencing now.
    I think you misunderstood my point.
    I am not anti-technology, I am not afraid of the future or of becoming irrelevant. I will someday try FPV. It looks exciting to me and the the limiting factor is budget, not fear. It is the focus of the AMA that I was speaking to and levels they are willing to go to embrace this technology. There is a difference between participating in a hobby and endorsing or encouraging participation in non hobby uses of this technology. In the MA arcticle statements were written such as "FPV hobbyists have used their aircraft to study thermal variations in rivers to help restore native fish habitats." This is a non hobby activity that was endorsed in the arcticle. This is not part of the hobby. The AMA has nothing to do with this type of activity nor should it. That is the nature of my concern. Staying within the limits of the hobby, otherwise we are inviting government oversight.
    Last edited by Uncas; 12-15-2013 at 12:35 PM.

  7. #32

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    Quote Originally Posted by Uncas View Post
    I think you misunderstood my point.
    I am not anti-technology, I am not afraid of the future or of becoming irrelevant. I will someday try FPV. It looks exciting to me and the the limiting factor is budget, not fear. It is the focus of the AMA that I was speaking to and levels they are willing to go to embrace this technology. There is a difference between participating in a hobby and endorsing or encouraging participation in non hobby uses of this technology. In the MA arcticle statements were written such as "FPV hobbyists have used their aircraft to study thermal variations in rivers to help restore native fish habitats." This is a non hobby activity that was endorsed in the arcticle. This is not part of the hobby. The AMA has nothing to do with this type of activity nor should it. That is the nature of my concern. Staying within the limits of the hobby, otherwise we are inviting government oversight.
    I get what you are saying, but I think you are wrong with your example about studying thermal variations in rivers. I have read about several FPVers that enjoy using their models to conduct archeological and geographic research, done in a hobby manner, not for profit and not as a job. I see absolutely nothing wrong with a hobbyist doing ecological research with their FPV models and using that info to help local entities on a volunteer basis. Again, not for pay, not as a job and not sponsored by government, military or private enterprise. The AMA can and should support this type of FPV hobby activity.

    The true dividing line is whether or not the FPV/UAS model is being flown as a job or for profit, or as a government, military or private enterprise project. When you get into these catagories, the AMA should not be involved, as the activity is no longer a hobby activity.
    Last edited by Thomas B; 12-17-2013 at 08:25 PM.
    Electric Coolhunter

  8. #33

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    I think that Uncas makes a good point. The AMA article highlights some non "hobby" uses. To me, regardless of type, be it fixed wing or rotary wing a model aircraft is to be flown line of sight and see and avoid. I have no problem with someone flying at the club field with a quadcopter or a plane with a camera as long as it stays within the boundaries of the field. Even flown in FPV mode as long as it remains in the designated area that would be ok. But isn't the idea of autonomous flight to be able to travel out beyond the restrictions of our eyesight? I know that the AMA has rules for FPV, and if followed, FPV can be safely done. But how many people want to spend money on FPV just to be able to fly in the pattern with the rest of us? The argument that I often hear is that "if I can't do FPV at the club field, I'll just go to a park." Any person that thinks that's acceptable is someone that I wouldn't want in my club anyway.

  9. #34

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    There are always those who delight in "pushing the envelope". It was tolerated in the past when the "envelope" was huge, but today the "envelope" is greatly restricted by government regulations. It is these "envelope pushers" I worry about. Some push carefully with intelligence and an eye to safety, some do not.

    Push too far and we all suffer with new regulations and restrictions. We are being watched today as NEVER before, we have few friends in congress and our activity is often viewed in a poor light. We must be vigilant.

  10. #35

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    Quote Originally Posted by Thomas B View Post
    I get what you are saying, but I think you are wrong with your example about studying thermal variations in rivers. I have read about several FPVers that enjoy using their models to conduct archeological and geographic research, done in a hobby manner, not for profit and not as a job. I see absolutely nothing wrong with a hobbyist doing ecological research with their FPV models and using that info to help local entities on a volunteer basis. Again, not for pay, not as a job and not sponsored by government, military or private enterprise. The AMA can and should support this type of FPV hobby activity.

    The true dividing line is where or not the FPV/UAS model is being flown as a job or for profit, or as a government, military or private enterprise project. When you get into these catagories, the AMA should not be involved, as the activity is no longer a hobby activity.
    Well said, Thomas. I found myself in agreement with Uncas and Hoss et al on this, and you added a necessary condition that was nagging at me for inclusion. The line you mentioned in your last para has become a familiar, reasonable, and recognized distinction that defines our models as the focus of a worthwhile hobby activity (in itself, though not yet so clearly re support of other hobby interests), with a safety record that warrants separation from other aircraft as to regulation. No other attribute than being exclusively for hobby use has been satisfactory as to unambiguously separating our models from regulated aircraft. Recent 'chatter' in MA columns of some AMA officers and managers seem to be appealing to members for support of ventures (i.e., $$$ driven) into the realm of commercial and public SUVs, and while that may be good for revenue flow, it isn't likely to be good for modelers.

    cj

  11. #36
    littlecrankshaf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 049flyer View Post
    There are always those who delight in "pushing the envelope". It was tolerated in the past when the "envelope" was huge, but today the "envelope" is greatly restricted by government regulations. It is these "envelope pushers" I worry about. Some push carefully with intelligence and an eye to safety, some do not.

    Push too far and we all suffer with new regulations and restrictions. We are being watched today as NEVER before, we have few friends in congress and our activity is often viewed in a poor light. We must be vigilant.
    049flyer makes some real good points...if we quit pushing the envelope it no doubt will close.
    It is very important to understand that Jesus not only died for our sins but died because of our sins...even harder to understand now, exactly what were those sins???

  12. #37
    littlecrankshaf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Uncas View Post
    I think you misunderstood my point.
    Sorry for my poor execution but my post was more general in nature...actually agreeing... just giving some rationale.. and not an admonishment to yours.
    It is very important to understand that Jesus not only died for our sins but died because of our sins...even harder to understand now, exactly what were those sins???

  13. #38
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    In my opinion, the AMA hitching their (our) wagon to the new 'drone' movement is not a bold, forward thinking embrace of new technology; they are simply following the money and it sickens me. Much like the NRA pimping themselves to the tactical crowd when the assault weapons ban was lifted, the AMA is wooing a group who could care less about rifles (model airplanes). Instead they use our ready made industry and infrastructure to pursue their hobby while trying to hide under our organizational umbrella. LET THEM CREATE THEIR OWN SPECIAL INTEREST LOBBY.
    Unfortunately, now the AR-15 has become the public face of the NRA. In the near future what will the public face of the AMA be? A model airplane(?) or a camera equipped multi-rotor (crashing into a building, with great video to post for the world to see).


    Full disclosure:
    I am a current NRA member; one of my guns is a S&W M&P 15-22 which my son and I use in tactical small bore competition.
    I am a current AMA member; I have owned and flown several small multi-rotors. They are fun… but NOT a model airplane.
    Eric

  14. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by NorfolkSouthern View Post
    Well, my understanding is that the FAA has no interest in model airplanes. But, they can still be used as drones, none the less. And that's one area where the FAA shows its ignorance. You can now take a .40 sized Cub, fit it with an electric motor, a camera, and an iPhone and you're in the R/C photography business, as long as there is no money trail. You're just flying a model airplane, and took a pic of your friend's house. I seriously doubt if anybody would care. People were flying R/C back in the 1970's, and there was one neighbor of my uncle who had one. He could have just as easily equipped it with a Kodak instamatic and shutter servo if he wanted to. Who would know?
    One thing you "I'll do what I want" people don't understand is that our HOBBY is an exception to the rules. It is NOT the rule. Once you start making money from your photos you are no longer covered by the hobby exception! And worse yet once you start pushing beyond the "guidelines" and flaunting it on the Internet you are hurting the entire hobby. You *&^%$ (I wish I could say what I mean but the mods will delete my post) are going to destory our hobby just so you can have your "fun".

  15. #40

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    With the large numbers of videos on Youtube showing FPV's flying over buildings and people, the AMA needs to recognize that this cannot be controlled. And when people say that the hobby once looked down on helicopters and giant scale because they were "new" technology. I would remind them that the difference is that they fly "line of sight, see and avoid." When I open the AMA magazine and see adds for FPV, it's like the NRA advertising shoulder fire missiles. In a time when flying fields are hard to come by, any bad press about a "drone" hurts the hobby.

  16. #41
    littlecrankshaf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rgburrill View Post
    You *&^%$ (I wish I could say what I mean but the mods will delete my post) are going to destory our hobby just so you can have your "fun".
    So much hate...Why?
    It is very important to understand that Jesus not only died for our sins but died because of our sins...even harder to understand now, exactly what were those sins???

  17. #42

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    Quote Originally Posted by edh13 View Post
    In my opinion, the AMA hitching their (our) wagon to the new 'drone' movement is not a bold, forward thinking embrace of new technology; they are simply following the money and it sickens me. Much like the NRA pimping themselves to the tactical crowd when the assault weapons ban was lifted, the AMA is wooing a group who could care less about rifles (model airplanes). Instead they use our ready made industry and infrastructure to pursue their hobby while trying to hide under our organizational umbrella. LET THEM CREATE THEIR OWN SPECIAL INTEREST LOBBY.
    Unfortunately, now the AR-15 has become the public face of the NRA. In the near future what will the public face of the AMA be? A model airplane(?) or a camera equipped multi-rotor (crashing into a building, with great video to post for the world to see).


    Full disclosure:
    I am a current NRA member; one of my guns is a S&W M&P 15-22 which my son and I use in tactical small bore competition.
    I am a current AMA member; I have owned and flown several small multi-rotors. They are fun… but NOT a model airplane.
    Eric

    Eric seems to have a good handle on whats actually going on with this whole AMA/FPV lovefest .

    Lets see where the rubber meets the road .......

    We all know that even now , with the recent rewrite , doc. #550 STILL states that the spotter (used to be the PIC Pilot In Command) must have VISUAL contact with the craft at all times . The second it's flown beyond LOS of the spotter it is no longer AMA condoned FPV . Now , when one of these finally does cause a $$ Damages $$ creating incident by crashing beyond the spotter's LOS and hitting something valuable , the AMA has their out to have the insurance deny coverage as the craft was being operated outside of the provisions of #550 .........
    Last edited by init4fun; 12-16-2013 at 01:28 PM.

  18. #43

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    Quote Originally Posted by rgburrill View Post
    One thing you "I'll do what I want" people don't understand is that our HOBBY is an exception to the rules. It is NOT the rule. Once you start making money from your photos you are no longer covered by the hobby exception! And worse yet once you start pushing beyond the "guidelines" and flaunting it on the Internet you are hurting the entire hobby. You *&^%$ (I wish I could say what I mean but the mods will delete my post) are going to destory our hobby just so you can have your "fun".
    Sorry, but soon your hobby will no longer be the exception. Eventually, somebody is bound to equip a warbird with FPV, and go have some fun. It has in fact, been done I'm sure. Nobody likes the fact, but a model airplane is definitely a drone because there is no connection between it, and the operator. They are only linked by radio waves, and this is not much different from that new probe that China put on the moon. So, yes, I guess we all better embrace this new technology, and welcome the multi-rotors to the club. I think the AMA needs to include as many people as it can get, because the drones are going to win either way. People want something that has some practical value, and drones will offer that, in spades. What can a "model" do, besides fly around the circle? I would honestly like to put my Citabria and low-wing trainer to work, because they're not really earning their keep sitting on a table. Who is going to buy 'em if they're not gonna make someone some money? The AMA is doing what it has to do to survive. And it's a big enough organization where it WILL survive, even if it has to up its dues and buy out half the Congress.

  19. #44
    littlecrankshaf's Avatar
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    Our hobby should never be considered an "exception"...we should all be held personally responsible for our actions...no license, piece of paper or privilege should ever absolve us from our responsibility to one or another.
    It is very important to understand that Jesus not only died for our sins but died because of our sins...even harder to understand now, exactly what were those sins???

  20. #45
    combatpigg's Avatar
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    The same people who were fiercely in favor of the [epic failure ] Park Pilot Program.....seem to be the same who fiercely support anything new that comes along no matter what. I see the same rationale being used by these same people to advocate [non PC term for "embrace"] drone flight.
    I don't know what this "envelope" is that some of you think needs pushing. Give me an example of something that you would like to be able to do with a model plane within the AMA's scope of safety rules that you can't already do today....because the "envelope" is too small...lol.
    The hobby is full of all sorts of absolutely wild ways to fly already..take a minute to reflect on everything that we do already. Most of you probably have never seen much of it, like control line speed, combat, 200 mph pylon racing, gas powered free flight, etc.
    This talk about "pushing the envelope" ...give some examples.
    Meanwhile, I'll be pushing a real envelope with another project that's on the drawing board.
    WHO GUNNA FEED MAW KEEEIDS..???

  21. #46
    littlecrankshaf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by combatpigg View Post
    Give me an example of something that you would like to be able to do with a model plane within the AMA's scope of safety rules that you can't already do today....because the "envelope" is too small...lol.
    Well...I can envision a FPV obstacle course, where flying thru and around obsicles could be done in a very safe manner...Not allowed "within the AMA's scope of safety rules"...just to name one that is within the context of this thread.
    It is very important to understand that Jesus not only died for our sins but died because of our sins...even harder to understand now, exactly what were those sins???

  22. #47
    combatpigg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by littlecrankshaf View Post
    Well...I can envision a FPV obstacle course, where flying thru and around obsicles could be done in a very safe manner...Not allowed "within the AMA's scope of safety rules"...just to name one that is within the context of this thread.
    Like AMA approved pylon poles and AMA approved Fun Fly limbo poles, AMA approved "balloon bust" obstacles,\ and AMA approved carrier decks...? Have you already got these mastered and need some more..?
    Maybe you're visualizing something more "envelope pushing", like manuevering through massive AMA approved systems of underground tunnels, skyscrapers, mountain ranges, cloud formations, Giant Sequoias, etc....?
    WHO GUNNA FEED MAW KEEEIDS..???

  23. #48
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    FPV Pylon Racing??????? Now that would be way too cool and as the pilots could be stationed within a enclosure it would be safer than the way it is flown today.

  24. #49

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    Quote Originally Posted by bruceal View Post
    I think that Uncas makes a good point. The AMA article highlights some non "hobby" uses. To me, regardless of type, be it fixed wing or rotary wing a model aircraft is to be flown line of sight and see and avoid. I have no problem with someone flying at the club field with a quadcopter or a plane with a camera as long as it stays within the boundaries of the field. Even flown in FPV mode as long as it remains in the designated area that would be ok. But isn't the idea of autonomous flight to be able to travel out beyond the restrictions of our eyesight? I know that the AMA has rules for FPV, and if followed, FPV can be safely done. But how many people want to spend money on FPV just to be able to fly in the pattern with the rest of us? The argument that I often hear is that "if I can't do FPV at the club field, I'll just go to a park." Any person that thinks that's acceptable is someone that I wouldn't want in my club anyway.
    This is pretty much exactly what we have found at our club. FPV is cool but during our one and only demonstration of the technology we found that the FPV pilot could not accurately estimate his close proximity to buildings/flight line etc. unless he was flying directly towards them. Additionally, although he was happy to demonstrate the FPV technology he was unhappy with the current AMA rules and didn't feel it was worth the club dues to be restricted to the airplane pattern we use or the 3D/Helicopter area. He did demonstrate that he could fly formation off of a LOS airplane very well.

    With all this taken into account our club decided that we would not allow FPV flying at this time to prevent conflicts with the local residents and the land owner of our club. It may change in the future but for now that is where we are at with it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by combatpigg View Post
    The same people who were fiercely in favor of the [epic failure ] Park Pilot Program.....seem to be the same who fiercely support anything new that comes along no matter what. I see the same rationale being used by these same people to advocate [non PC term for "embrace"] drone flight.
    I don't know what this "envelope" is that some of you think needs pushing. Give me an example of something that you would like to be able to do with a model plane within the AMA's scope of safety rules that you can't already do today....because the "envelope" is too small...lol.
    The hobby is full of all sorts of absolutely wild ways to fly already..take a minute to reflect on everything that we do already. Most of you probably have never seen much of it, like control line speed, combat, 200 mph pylon racing, gas powered free flight, etc.
    This talk about "pushing the envelope" ...give some examples.
    Meanwhile, I'll be pushing a real envelope with another project that's on the drawing board.
    With the exception of the irrelevant crack about the PP program,
    the answer to your question is in your own post.
    In the quest for bigger, faster, lighter, better, etc,, someone had to
    "push the envelope". It's in our nature, even, I'll bet, yours.
    "Had to" really isn't even part of it, "want to" is better--this is America, that's what we do, and do well.
    You may be happy to dwell in the past.
    Many are not.


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