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FAA fine against drone photographer dismissed.

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Old 04-11-2014, 11:58 AM
  #801
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnShe View Post
I have said it before, and I will say it again. I will call the law if I encounter anyone operating one of those toys in an unsafe manner.

And yes, I expect that REAL commercial drone operations will cost a few bills. Both learning how to operate a reliable drone safely and purchasing the the drone itself may cost thousands, but I don't care. A real entrepreneur can write a business plan and get a small business loan from the government. That is, unless anarchists shut down the SBA because it represents Big Government.
Fixed.

BradPaul, your point is not invalid or lost but sure does leave the general public to be at risk of those who think they are better than the rest. OOPS! That is normal and desirable according to those who keep whining about their "Constitutional Rights" to put folks at risk.
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Old 04-11-2014, 01:03 PM
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Originally Posted by Jim Branaum View Post
Generally you are correct here, but that does not represent the entire world of park flyers. Go back to the reasons several towns/cities in Texas have outlawed model aviation within their boundaries by ordinance for reasons similar to those spun by Dennis. Try El Paso for one and I am sure you can find others. The real problem is those that actually do the deed and insure the hobbyist has a black eye.

.
Jim there is nothing spun by me. We had a registered flying site within city limits, on top of an old city landfill turned into a park. Park flyers and club members used the facilities as long as we followed certain rules. Two decided they didn’t want to follow the rules, flew in no fly zones, gave park personnel a hard time and finally hit a couple of cars in the parking lot. Result we all lost use of that facility.

I don’t necessarily like rules, regulations or bylaws (Canada) but because of a selfish few they have become a necessary evil. Am I willing to put up with a few common sense rules or regulations that will allow me to enjoy my hobby? Absolutely, the other alternative is hardly acceptable.

As to park flyers as a group, most are not any more dangerous than anyone else using the park. It’s the selfish ones as always who ruin it for the majority.

Now we have bylaws in effect that prohibit any motorized vehicle or toy on city property. This includes parks, streets, schools etc. Because of a selfish few the city has just found it easier liability wise to lump everyone together and ban it all. The police do enforce it and issue tickets.

The problem is that every entity sees the activity happening on their property as a potential liability. Under the advice of their legal staff it’s just easier to ban everything.

Dennis

Last edited by Propworn; 04-11-2014 at 01:24 PM.
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Old 04-11-2014, 01:44 PM
  #803
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And, that is all that I am asking for in the case of commercial drone operations. They need a set of tools and guidelines,not necessarily the AMA set, so that they can fly safely and make money.[/QUOTE]

"Set of tools " I've got a great idea of where they can start the search for them !
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Old 04-11-2014, 01:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Propworn View Post
Jim there is nothing spun by me. We had a registered flying site within city limits, on top of an old city landfill turned into a park. Park flyers and club members used the facilities as long as we followed certain rules. Two decided they didn’t want to follow the rules, flew in no fly zones, gave park personnel a hard time and finally hit a couple of cars in the parking lot. Result we all lost use of that facility.

I don’t necessarily like rules, regulations or bylaws (Canada) but because of a selfish few they have become a necessary evil. Am I willing to put up with a few common sense rules or regulations that will allow me to enjoy my hobby? Absolutely, the other alternative is hardly acceptable.

As to park flyers as a group, most are not any more dangerous than anyone else using the park. It’s the selfish ones as always who ruin it for the majority.

Now we have bylaws in effect that prohibit any motorized vehicle or toy on city property. This includes parks, streets, schools etc. Because of a selfish few the city has just found it easier liability wise to lump everyone together and ban it all. The police do enforce it and issue tickets.

The problem is that every entity sees the activity happening on their property as a potential liability. Under the advice of their legal staff it’s just easier to ban everything.

Dennis

Dennis,

i think I am safe to assume the registered flying site you refer had rules...correct? But the field was still lost....because of non-adherence to those rules...hmmm makes me wonder how much the the city factored in the PITA of dealing with all the whining instead of observing actual infractions to make their decision...
Either way rules didn't prevent the lose of the flying site. Maybe if just one person manned up to the idiots instead of hiding behind roolze..maybe, just maybe a much different outcome...who knows...that road wasn't traveled apparently.
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Old 04-11-2014, 02:09 PM
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Originally Posted by littlecrankshaf View Post
Dennis,

i think I am safe to assume the registered flying site you refer had rules...correct? But the field was still lost....because of non-adherence to those rules...hmmm makes me wonder how much the the city factored in the PITA of dealing with all the whining instead of observing actual infractions to make their decision...
Either way rules didn't prevent the lose of the flying site. Maybe if just one person manned up to the idiots instead of hiding behind roolze..maybe, just maybe a much different outcome...who knows...that road wasn't traveled apparently.

And the city is going to put up with a bunch of guys in an altercation over toy airplanes in a city park. Are you abnormally obtuse or what?

Dennis
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Old 04-11-2014, 02:13 PM
  #806
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Originally Posted by Propworn View Post
And the city is going to put up with a bunch of guys in an altercation over toy airplanes in a city park. Are you abnormally obtuse or what?

Dennis
I guess that rational leaves but one recourse....go whine to the city about them bad boys that won't play on the swing set nice.
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Old 04-11-2014, 03:26 PM
  #807
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Funny thing about rules................ those that want them also want somebody else to enforce them.

Then when that does not work they ask for more rules.
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Old 04-11-2014, 03:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bradpaul View Post
Funny thing about rules................ those that want them also want somebody else to enforce them.

Then when that does not work they ask for more rules.
And, you have evidence to support that absurd opinion?
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Old 04-11-2014, 03:41 PM
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The bogus assertion by the tin foil hat guy that they can be charged with assault can be demonstrated to be false by simply looking at injuries in an auto accident.
Assault is used if one hits another vehicle on purpose. That was just from a list of several laws that could be used. It was not mean't that every one could be used in every case.
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Old 04-11-2014, 04:16 PM
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Originally Posted by bradpaul View Post
Funny thing about rules................ those that want them also want somebody else to enforce them.

Then when that does not work they ask for more rules.
ain't that the truth.
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Old 04-12-2014, 06:18 AM
  #811
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Is this the type of freedoms you condone. Sure sounds like it to me.
We are advocating the right of the State and local government to enforce whatever laws they require. Not so much individual rights, and certainly not the right to do whatever you want.
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Old 04-12-2014, 06:27 AM
  #812
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Originally Posted by Propworn View Post
From my travels I believe a lot of your clubs in the US are on public land which limits the ability of the club to control access.
There used to be an open flying site at a public park in Mesquite Texas where the city rules and regulations (ordinances) were posted for all to read and follow while using that field. The only recourse (Listen up Sport - this is what YOU want for the general public ) was to call the sheriff if someone violated the posted rules which included the AMA safety code. A friend and I visited and flew but he got shot down because some guy decided he wanted the frequency NOW. It seems that guy had a reputation for doing exactly that and none of the sheriff folks was going to write a ticket for his infractions because they said it wouldn't have stood up in court and was a civil matter. I know because we called.

The bottom line (touched on by someone else) is that no rules or regulations will ever STOP Sam Stupid from doing bad things, but they may provide the guidance Joe SixPack needs to stay on the safe side of things. If you want anarchy, so be it but be willing to suck up the injuries created by all the Sam Stupids out there who will claim "it isn't against the rules" because common sense isn't.

In the example I gave about my club fields, all parties were violating the known and published rules and in both cases we still lost the field. In the example Dennis gave, the miscreants were run off and his club STILL LOST THE FIELD. Both examples prove that rules and regulations do not do squat for bad actors and most miscreants will invent ways to hurt you, even if not 'attached' to you!

In short the discussion here should not be about rules or not but how to put safe operations on the front burner now that "60 Minutes" has taken it off and thrown it away with their interview where "cool" was the message given?

Sport, tell us exactly how safe it is to have your kids on the playground while someone you cannot see is flying one of these "toys" around their heads. Before you say that doesn't happen go back and look at the Australian report and explain how that person got hit on the head. Oh while you are working on that try to show where you claim this falsehood came from
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. . . Your statement that you can never use assault laws was simply total BS.
If you cannot show where I used those exact words then your assertion is made up, false, clearly demonstrates your total lack of sincerity, and very strongly suggests some things about you that most good people would not be proud of.

The real brunt of any regulation will have to be aimed at the manufacturer rather than the user because there are way too many users with the same ethos as Sport or worse, the "make me do it" guys and the "It is my Constitutional Right" folks to do anything other than just outlawing the usage of a valuable and worthwhile technology. Rather than attempting any approach towards forcing personal responsibility on stupid people, crackpots, crazies, and other low life social pariahs the problem is reduced in size if the maker is regulated to create a safer product the problem becomes smaller.

Just like "they" did with the lawnmower And any other useful piece of equipment the legal beagles have forced the redesign of because of folks that were stupid enough to hurt themselves doing unreasonable things.

Enjoy the thought of having to eat with a spork.
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Old 04-12-2014, 06:47 AM
  #813
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jim branaum;11780995 ... Go here and get yourself some help: [url
http://zapatopi.net/afdb/[/url]
lol!
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Old 04-12-2014, 08:47 AM
  #814
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Gentlemen, you will notice a HUGE chunk of recent post have just disappeared from this thread. This is a result of members that have decided to ignore my earlier warning about not insulting and attacking each other in the open threads. Because of open insults and attacks, and the replies to those posts I have removed a bunch of posts. I am giving you guys a lot of leeway in discussing this issue because this is a pretty heated subject, but you all need to calm down and quit the petty childish insults and you need to do it now. I am constantly amazed at how some people well act when the get behind a keyboard and start saying things they would never say face to face. Regardless of this however, all of these insults WILL STOP NOW, period. Just so everybody knows what's on from where we stand now, here's the deal. The next member I see here attacking other members with these silly childish name calling, or any other sort of insults or attacks, will be placed on Moderated Status and will remain there until they learn to follow the rules of RCU. Like I said, I have given the members of this this discussion a lot of leeway here but I am sick and tired of seeing the insults being thrown around like a bunch of kids in a playground spat. Come on guys, we are all better than that.

This is an important matter and it deserves to be discussed here, let's not spoil it by acting like a bunch of kids. It's time to grow up.

Ken
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Old 04-12-2014, 10:22 AM
  #815
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This whole discussion RULES/REGULATIONS/INDIVIDUAL RESPONSIBILITY/PUBLIC SAFETY is just a sub set of the much larger discussion in our society today. As such there is a very large political component to it liberal/conservative, right/left, individual freedom, it takes a village, etc. and like all political discussions neither side will convince the other.

IMHO the "true" commercial drone companies will embrace regulation as it will be a barrier to entry by the small guy. Is this good or bad ? Probably both. They will not be a problem.

IMHO the recreational drone flyer will remain outside FAA control, but that in no way limits the potential liability the pilot may have for being in idiot. And if outside of AMA (CBO) recommendations the pilot better have good homeowners insurance. The incidents of accidents, you tube videos of "look at me my drone is at 2000" will increase as more and more cheap drones are bought and flown. Unfortunately anything the AMA or FAA does will be "pi**ing in the wind". The only way enforcement could work with thousands (perhaps shortly tens of thousands) of drones being flown by individuals (adults and kids) is for the FAA to turn over enforcement to the local police. Too many drones too few FAA officers. Could it come to the equivalent of a traffic ticket for improper drone flying????.

What a "brave new world" we live in...........................................
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Old 04-12-2014, 11:27 AM
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Originally Posted by JohnShe View Post
I have said it before, and I will say it again. I will call the law if I encounter anyone operating one of those toys in an unsafe manner.
do you have your guidelines posted anywhere so we can abide by those correctly?
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Old 04-12-2014, 12:23 PM
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Originally Posted by littlecrankshaf View Post
do you have your guidelines posted anywhere so we can abide by those correctly?

Sure, I have a special website full of recreational model aviation safety guidelines.

http://www.modelaircraft.org/

Glad to help ,I did not know that you were unaware. You should join, it would be good for you.
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Old 04-12-2014, 12:37 PM
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For guys who can quote bile and verse from your constitution, or claim to know every loophole to every law you just don’t seem to get it.

No municipality or state law maker is going to take on aviation law. It’s not going to happen.

When the feds take it on they will look at it one of two ways. You’re a model aircraft flying under rules that clearly show you are a hobbyist in which case we are not interested in you. The accepted rules for a model and hobbyist are clear and agreed upon between the feds and AMA. Like it or not this is not going to change it’s already agreed upon. Your interpretation does not amount to a hill of beans.

If you’re flying outside these rules/guidelines it does not concern modelers or hobbyists except for all of us being painted with the same paint brush of irresponsibility. It will concern the FAA and eventually they will have the tools to deal with it. When they do I hope they make an example of those irresponsible flyers who think it their right to do what they want.

Dennis
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Old 04-12-2014, 12:40 PM
  #819
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Yeah, the Feds will have the tools to deal with it.

Sure. Look around. The Dollar is going to crash.

You are all going to have much bigger fish to fry. Like, how to stay alive.
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Old 04-12-2014, 01:05 PM
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Originally Posted by bradpaul View Post

IMHO the recreational drone flyer will remain outside FAA control, but that in no way limits the potential liability the pilot may have for being in idiot. And if outside of AMA (CBO) recommendations the pilot better have good homeowners insurance.
Enjoy it while you can homeowners insurance for model aircraft may soon come to a screeching halt. Some insurance companies are already taking notice of the problems and have reacted.

New this year from my policy under “Special Limits of Insurance”

We do not insure:

  1. Motorized vehicles or their equipment excluding wheelchairs or assisted bicycles/scooters having more than two wheels specifically designed for the carriage of a person who has a physical disability.
  2. Aircraft or their equipment.

Toys or hobby items such as model aircraft or children’s battery powered all terrain vehicles using no more the a 12 volt battery or that can attain speeds no greater than 8 kilometers per hour (5 miles an hour) are not considered motorized vehicles or aircraft.

This was included under the All Perils clause. In short it meant I lost fire, theft and vandalism coverage for my models. They were explicit about no liability coverage period. I provided proof of liability insurance from MAAC and after four weeks of back and fourth they agreed to cover everything for fire, theft and vandalism.

Dennis
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Old 04-12-2014, 01:47 PM
  #821
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Originally Posted by JohnShe View Post
Sure, I have a special website full of recreational model aviation safety guidelines.

http://www.modelaircraft.org/

Glad to help ,I did not know that you were unaware. You should join, it would be good for you.
So when you see someone flying their 10oz foamy in a parking lot and you report it, this is what you'll point to?

Yep, that 's exactly what someone did about my flying. Boy, you should heard how the police laughed and referred to him as some kind of idiot when they talked to me... It was very entertaining to say the least. Later the nimrod tried to make allegations that I threatend him but his credibility was so far in the crapper it all became just outright hilarious.
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Old 04-12-2014, 01:49 PM
  #822
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Originally Posted by bogbeagle View Post
Yeah, the Feds will have the tools to deal with it.

Sure. Look around. The Dollar is going to crash.

You are all going to have much bigger fish to fry. Like, how to stay alive.
Kind of curious you being from the UK what is your dog in this discussion. What do you care what goes on in the US. I would think you would be more concerned with your freedoms at home. Even your police were not aware of the general rules of aviation regarding drones.

http://www.personal-drones.net/the-r...-police-drone/
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Old 04-12-2014, 01:54 PM
  #823
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Originally Posted by Propworn View Post
Kind of curious you being from the UK what is your dog in this discussion. What do you care what goes on in the US. I would think you would be more concerned with your freedoms at home. Even your police were not aware of the general rules of aviation regarding drones.

http://www.personal-drones.net/the-r...-police-drone/
but you are from Canada...you might ask yourself as well , I would think.
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Old 04-12-2014, 02:08 PM
  #824
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Originally Posted by littlecrankshaf View Post
So when you see someone flying their 10oz foamy in a parking lot and you report it, this is what you'll point to?

Yep, that 's exactly what someone did about my flying. Boy, you should heard how the police laughed and referred to him as some kind of idiot when they talked to me... It was very entertaining to say the least. Later the nimrod tried to make allegations that I threatend him but his credibility was so far in the crapper it all became just outright hilarious.
Not hard to deal with if you have a little imagination. A young buck here in the neighborhood would run his snow machine in the park when ever it snowed. It’s illegal here to run them in the city so he was asked politely to refrain from running it in the park. He refused to cooperate so next time he tried it someone called the cops stating the guy was running it in the park without regard to the safety of the children using the park. In fact the children had left the park rather than being hit by this guy. When the cops showed up a few neighbors came out pointed out where he lived he was charged and fined. No children were actually used in this little lesson but he did get the message. It would be easy for someone with a little imagination to arrange the same for someone flying a foamy where their not supposed to. I like personal challenges.

Dennis
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Old 04-12-2014, 02:12 PM
  #825
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Quote:
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but you are from Canada...you might ask yourself as well , I would think.
Is obvious you’re not familiar with the cooperation and the similarities that evolve from the talks between the FAA and Transport Canada as well as the AMA and MAAC or you wouldn’t speak so naively.

Ever heard of a Reciprocal Agreement????

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