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FAA fine against drone photographer dismissed.

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FAA fine against drone photographer dismissed.

Old 04-12-2014, 02:18 PM
  #826  
littlecrankshaf
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Originally Posted by Propworn
Is obvious you’re not familiar with the cooperation and the similarities that evolve from the talks between the FAA and Transport Canada as well as the AMA and MAAC or you wouldn’t speak so naively.

Ever heard of a Reciprocal Agreement????

Dennis
So only the US and Canada are looking at issues that thread topics??? Not sure about my naivety but I think you have more questions to ask of yourself. Oh, and the reciprocal agreement doesn't amount to squat in any real sense.
Old 04-12-2014, 02:44 PM
  #827  
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Originally Posted by bradpaul
This whole discussion RULES/REGULATIONS/INDIVIDUAL RESPONSIBILITY/PUBLIC SAFETY is just a sub set of the much larger discussion in our society today. As such there is a very large political component to it liberal/conservative, right/left, individual freedom, it takes a village, etc. and like all political discussions neither side will convince the other.

IMHO the "true" commercial drone companies will embrace regulation as it will be a barrier to entry by the small guy. Is this good or bad ? Probably both. They will not be a problem.

IMHO the recreational drone flyer will remain outside FAA control, but that in no way limits the potential liability the pilot may have for being in idiot. And if outside of AMA (CBO) recommendations the pilot better have good homeowners insurance. The incidents of accidents, you tube videos of "look at me my drone is at 2000" will increase as more and more cheap drones are bought and flown. Unfortunately anything the AMA or FAA does will be "pi**ing in the wind". The only way enforcement could work with thousands (perhaps shortly tens of thousands) of drones being flown by individuals (adults and kids) is for the FAA to turn over enforcement to the local police. Too many drones too few FAA officers. Could it come to the equivalent of a traffic ticket for improper drone flying????.

What a "brave new world" we live in...........................................
I may like to add, though, that firearms far out-number model airplanes, yet they are regulated. One single component can fall under a government administration: A receiver, for example. Or, even a transmitter, just like the lower receiver on some rifles being the serial-numbered component, while the rest of the parts can be purchased without an FFL. That means, an airframe can be purchased from Tower Hobbies, but the receiver could require a license and background check, just like someone buying a lower receiver, wanting to build his/her rifle from components. Only difference is that this would be a model airplane/drone. Is something like this going to happen? Well, it is very unlikely. But it can if there was enough opposition to drones/model airplanes being flown in populated, or even rural areas. So who would regulate the transmitters or receivers, and enforce their registration? I doubt the FAA would have the resources, and it would likely be out of the ATF's jurisdiction. However, the FCC does regulate radio frequencies, and gives amateur radio licenses. If Chuck Schumer and Diane Feinstein were wanting to pull the plug on the hobby, then I am sure they could find a way and part of this may be going back to licensing radio operators, even 2.4 ghz.
Old 04-12-2014, 03:07 PM
  #828  
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Originally Posted by littlecrankshaf
So only the US and Canada are looking at issues that thread topics??? Not sure about my naivety but I think you have more questions to ask of yourself. Oh, and the reciprocal agreement doesn't amount to squat in any real sense.
So what is the reciprocal agreement if it doesn't amount to squat.
Old 04-12-2014, 03:15 PM
  #829  
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Originally Posted by Propworn
So what is the reciprocal agreement if it doesn't amount to squat.
Something less than squat in regards to integrating drones into the NAS. Canada, Europe, US of A and the rest of the planet are trying to get their minds around this technology and our little agreement with Canada matters not.
Old 04-12-2014, 03:25 PM
  #830  
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Originally Posted by bradpaul
This whole discussion RULES/REGULATIONS/INDIVIDUAL RESPONSIBILITY/PUBLIC SAFETY is just a sub set of the much larger discussion in our society today. As such there is a very large political component to it liberal/conservative, right/left, individual freedom, it takes a village, etc. and like all political discussions neither side will convince the other.

IMHO the "true" commercial drone companies will embrace regulation as it will be a barrier to entry by the small guy. Is this good or bad ? Probably both. They will not be a problem.

IMHO the recreational drone flyer will remain outside FAA control, but that in no way limits the potential liability the pilot may have for being in idiot. And if outside of AMA (CBO) recommendations the pilot better have good homeowners insurance. The incidents of accidents, you tube videos of "look at me my drone is at 2000" will increase as more and more cheap drones are bought and flown. Unfortunately anything the AMA or FAA does will be "pi**ing in the wind". The only way enforcement could work with thousands (perhaps shortly tens of thousands) of drones being flown by individuals (adults and kids) is for the FAA to turn over enforcement to the local police. Too many drones too few FAA officers. Could it come to the equivalent of a traffic ticket for improper drone flying????.

What a "brave new world" we live in...........................................
Local pilot of a full size ultralight gets his kicks flying under the Ambassador Bridge. Complaint goes out to city cops. They meet the guy when he lands at the airport. Question him, take a statement then go speak the person who called it in. File a report with the feds Transport Canada. They suspend his license for 6 months and levy a hefty fine. Looks like it can work quite easily.

I bet the same happens in the USA. The FAA is rarely first person witness to the deed so they don’t have to catch you in the act but can file charges upon an investigation. Local cop has your name any witnesses to the infraction and what better witness could the FAA want but a sworn officer of the municipality where the infraction occurred.

Even if you didn’t loose it sure might be expensive just to say ya can.

Dennis
Old 04-12-2014, 03:27 PM
  #831  
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Originally Posted by Propworn
For guys who can quote bile and verse from your constitution, or claim to know every loophole to every law you just don’t seem to get it.

No municipality or state law maker is going to take on aviation law. It’s not going to happen.

When the feds take it on they will look at it one of two ways. You’re a model aircraft flying under rules that clearly show you are a hobbyist in which case we are not interested in you. The accepted rules for a model and hobbyist are clear and agreed upon between the feds and AMA. Like it or not this is not going to change it’s already agreed upon. Your interpretation does not amount to a hill of beans.

If you’re flying outside these rules/guidelines it does not concern modelers or hobbyists except for all of us being painted with the same paint brush of irresponsibility. It will concern the FAA and eventually they will have the tools to deal with it. When they do I hope they make an example of those irresponsible flyers who think it their right to do what they want.

Dennis
The U.S transportation system is controlled by the Department of Transportation (DOT), and one of the sub agency's is the FAA (Federal Aviation Administration), but there is also NHTSB (National Highway Transportation Safety Board), and FHWA (Federal Highway Administration), but this does not preclude States from licencing drivers or local governments from enforcing speed limits and highway safety laws.

States and local governments have passed regulations on RC flying and in some instances banning drones.

The idea that it is ONLY the FAA that can regulate drones and more widely RC aviation is just NOT TRUE.

I would expect this is so even in CANADA ehh

Last edited by bradpaul; 04-12-2014 at 07:13 PM. Reason: sp
Old 04-12-2014, 03:49 PM
  #832  
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Sport, tell us exactly how safe it is to have your kids on the playground while someone you cannot see is flying one of these "toys" around their heads.
I wouldn't be happy about it. But I expect the cops will do more to protect them than the FAA.
Old 04-12-2014, 03:55 PM
  #833  
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Originally Posted by littlecrankshaf
So when you see someone flying their 10oz foamy in a parking lot and you report it, this is what you'll point to?

Yep, that 's exactly what someone did about my flying. Boy, you should heard how the police laughed and referred to him as some kind of idiot when they talked to me... It was very entertaining to say the least. Later the nimrod tried to make allegations that I threatend him but his credibility was so far in the crapper it all became just outright hilarious.
You have drifted so far out into left (or is it right) field that you leave me speechless.


I said, unsafe activity. And, you still don't get it.
Old 04-12-2014, 03:56 PM
  #834  
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Originally Posted by bradpaul

States and local governments have passed regulations on RC flying and in some instances banning drones.

The idea that it is ONLY the FAA that can regulate drones and more widely RC aviation is just NOT TRUE.

I would expect this is so even in CA NA DA ehh
I don't remember saying that only the feds could regulate rc, drones etc. I've stated local municipalities already ban most flying anywhere in the city. The feds are only another layer of government. It would appear they are definitely going to lay down some laws/rules/regulations on top of what we already have. There exists enough cooperation between each layer of government to see the offender get charged it only depends on how far they wish to pursue the issue.

Dennis
Old 04-12-2014, 04:05 PM
  #835  
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Originally Posted by Propworn
I don't remember saying that only the feds could regulate rc, drones etc. I've stated local municipalities already ban most flying anywhere in the city. The feds are only another layer of government. It would appear they are definitely going to lay down some laws/rules/regulations on top of what we already have. There exists enough cooperation between each layer of government to see the offender get charged it only depends on how far they wish to pursue the issue.

Dennis
You want to clarify this post?

Originally Posted by propworn
For guys who can quote bile and verse from your constitution, or claim to know every loophole to every law you just don’t seem to get it.

No municipality or state law maker is going to take on aviation law. It’s not going to happen.

When the feds take it on they will look at it one of two ways. You’re a model aircraft flying under rules that clearly show you are a hobbyist in which case we are not interested in you. The accepted rules for a model and hobbyist are clear and agreed upon between the feds and AMA. Like it or not this is not going to change it’s already agreed upon. Your interpretation does not amount to a hill of beans.

If you’re flying outside these rules/guidelines it does not concern modelers or hobbyists except for all of us being painted with the same paint brush of irresponsibility. It will concern the FAA and eventually they will have the tools to deal with it. When they do I hope they make an example of those irresponsible flyers who think it their right to do what they want.

Dennis
A state, county or local government has the power to regulate RC. they always have, where you can fly, time you can fly, amount of noise, safety requirements, and even if you can fly over people or structures. They can pass a law and the police can enforce it.

Last edited by bradpaul; 04-12-2014 at 04:10 PM.
Old 04-12-2014, 04:37 PM
  #836  
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Originally Posted by bradpaul
You want to clarify this post?



A state, county or local government has the power to regulate RC. they always have, where you can fly, time you can fly, amount of noise, safety requirements, and even if you can fly over people or structures. They can pass a law and the police can enforce it.
No question about it here we deal with three levels of government and all can make the rules or laws. These are municipal, provincial and federal in Canada. I would suspect in the US it is municipal, state and federal. Now I am only offering my opinion here I am not positive about the relationships or overlaps but this is how it appears to me from casual observation.

Municipalities are concerned about liability so I have found their reaction seems to be banning everything that might cause harm if operated on property they are responsible for. They don’t care to concern themselves with air regs it’s not their jurisdiction.

State or Provincial authorities have much the same interests and responsibilities outside municipal boundaries. Again not too much interest in the air regs.

The feds could care less if a municipality or rural area has laws on the books against flying rc aircraft from farms, fields or municipalities. The concern they seem to focus on is safety in all airspace and regulation of commercial operations in the same.

Each level can and does make regulation and law to accomplish the goal they determine is in their best interest.

Investigations of all kinds have been kicked up from municipal police to state/provincial and from there have many times been bumped to the federal level. Most of the time it’s the municipal police officer that was at the scene but it never stops the feds even though they were never there to lay charges if they feel it’s within their jurisdiction. Why would it be any different with the FAA/Transport Canada?

Dennis
Old 04-12-2014, 05:08 PM
  #837  
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Originally Posted by JohnShe
You have drifted so far out into left (or is it right) field that you leave me speechless.


I said, unsafe activity. And, you still don't get it.
I am still trying to figure out how YOU, JohnShe determines when flying is unsafe. Earlier you pointed to the AMA but that was an incomplete answer. All that I can gather it is purely your subjectivity that matters.
Old 04-12-2014, 05:57 PM
  #838  
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Originally Posted by littlecrankshaf
I am still trying to figure out how YOU, JohnShe determines when flying is unsafe. Earlier you pointed to the AMA but that was an incomplete answer. All that I can gather it is purely your subjectivity that matters.
I gave you a perfectly valid answer, if you don't understand it, that is not my problem.
Old 04-12-2014, 06:06 PM
  #839  
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Originally Posted by JohnShe
I gave you a perfectly valid answer, if you don't understand it, that is not my problem.
So that's it... That's all you got? So I guess you go running to the police if you see someone catch their little foam model while in flight? As I know you must know; since admittaly you profess the AMA scriptures as the way and the light and your bases, that act (catching a model in flight)would be a violation. Just wondering, would you dial 911 or make a citezens arrest?
Old 04-12-2014, 06:10 PM
  #840  
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Originally Posted by littlecrankshaf
I've been reading all this remedial civics BS but have yet to discover one thing that alters anything I have ever said here. While you guys go on and on about how government is structured it changes little...
Remedial civics, how obtuse. Call it what it is a fact of life.

Please all knowing one tell us how we can counter the inevitable. You bluster so loudly surely you must have the answers. How can we alter the things that will be? Surely you can muster all drone flyers of America to stand united and stay the hand of the FAA, even though the numbers are so miniscule. The power of your oratory will certainly sway the FAA in favor of making legislation that will allow free access to airspace without FAA oversight.

Why as an AMA member you can start with the mobilization of all 150,000 AMA members to support the cause.

Dennis
Old 04-12-2014, 07:20 PM
  #841  
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Originally Posted by littlecrankshaf
So that's it... That's all you got? So I guess you go running to the police if you see someone catch their little foam model while in flight? As I know you must know; since admittaly you profess the AMA scriptures as the way and the light and your bases, that act (catching a model in flight)would be a violation. Just wondering, would you dial 911 or make a citezens arrest?
If I see a real safety violation, and not one of your fantasy examples, I will dial 911.
Old 04-12-2014, 07:24 PM
  #842  
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The discussion that has been going on here is more than enough reason for AMA to do an about face and get the hell out of anything whatever related to public and civil sUAS. They've been boiled in the same pot with model airplanes here, and there is very little likelihood modelers can continue to operate the only class of unmanned aircraft exempt from federal regulation if our national organization persists in their pandering to the industry/operators of UA that FAA has declared it will regulate, and by so doing elevates a similar ugly melee to the level of those empowered to impose regulations.

Old 04-12-2014, 07:45 PM
  #843  
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Originally Posted by cj_rumley
The discussion that has been going on here is more than enough reason for AMA to do an about face and get the hell out of anything whatever related to public and civil sUAS.
You certainly are right about that... can you just imagine the never ending Gladys Kravitzes calling 911 while peaking out the widow citing AMA this, AMA that...That alone would wreck our country.
Old 04-12-2014, 11:27 PM
  #844  
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Originally Posted by Propworn

Kind of curious you being from the UK what is your dog in this discussion. What do you care what goes on in the US. I would think you would be more concerned with your freedoms at home.

/
We live in a "global village" doncha know?

FAA regs will be bound to impinge upon me, in England ... there is a strong tendency for these things to become aligned.

Dollar crash will hit us, too, when it comes.

Could be worse for Canadians though. I mean, you have all those juicy natural resources ... and your neighbour won't have any money with which to pay for them. But, your neighbour will still have a massive war machine at his disposal, even if it is a little frayed. What do you think might happen?
Old 04-13-2014, 04:25 AM
  #845  
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Just happened upon this little tale ... an 'A' Certificate is the BMFA's minimum standard of pilot' certification. Made me chuckle.



Two elderly men were talking, & one said to the other "I've sure got old.
I've had two by-pass surgeries, a hip replacement, new knees, fought prostate cancer and diabetes."
"I'm half blind, can't hear anything quieter than a jet engine,
take 40 different medications that make me dizzy, winded and subject to blackouts."
"I have bouts with dementia, poor circulation and hardly feel my hands and feet any more."
"Furthermore I can't remember whether I'm 85 or 92"
"I've lost all my friends, but, thank God,
I still have my 'A' certificate"
Old 04-13-2014, 06:24 AM
  #846  
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just fly the drones and tell all to go somewhere
Old 04-13-2014, 07:04 AM
  #847  
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I think this is a fad that will phase away. I really can't see too much enjoyment of of this. Maybe for kids, but I'm not interested in constantly watching videos of my flights. It's kind of like those home movies that we all dread.
Old 04-13-2014, 07:40 AM
  #848  
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What I have a problem reconciling is all the clamoring about how we, the hobbyists, don't want to get sucked into some endless black hole with all this technology but spend every waking hour trying to tie relevance to AMA. AMA is little more than an exclusive little club like AARP...pay your $58 dollars...fly your model at their chartered club flying sites that exclude all others for the most part.

We've just got a peek into that black hole... JohnShe and Propworn are just the outer ring of what we can expect if we don't pull out soon...
Old 04-13-2014, 09:06 AM
  #849  
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Originally Posted by littlecrankshaf
What I have a problem reconciling is all the clamoring about how we, the hobbyists, don't want to get sucked into some endless black hole with all this technology but spend every waking hour trying to tie relevance to AMA. AMA is little more than an exclusive little club like AARP...pay your $58 dollars...fly your model at their chartered club flying sites that exclude all others for the most part.

We've just got a peek into that black hole... JohnShe and Propworn are just the outer ring of what we can expect if we don't pull out soon...
There you go again making things up to suit your supposed argument with little in fact or substance.

Do you belong to the AMA and sit at the table during discussions with the FAA? It doesn’t sound like it so you speak on supposition only, about what the AMA is doing and for what purpose. At best nothing but a wild guess.

What have you done personally to address this concern other than cry about what’s going on. There are tons of others working behind the scenes trying to protect and further their interests including the dreaded AMA. What are you actively doing? What affect are your actions going to have on the final outcome? If all you’re going to do is attempt to play one up-man ship on this forum it’s like a beer fart in an elevator. Smells bad for a while then goes away.

Please tell me with all the supposed passion you have for the subject you do more than pound a keyboard.

Dennis

Last edited by Propworn; 04-13-2014 at 09:15 AM.
Old 04-13-2014, 09:40 AM
  #850  
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Originally Posted by Propworn
There you go again making things up to suit your supposed argument with little in fact or substance.

Do you belong to the AMA and sit at the table during discussions with the FAA? It doesn’t sound like it so you speak on supposition only, about what the AMA is doing and for what purpose. At best nothing but a wild guess.



Dennis
please forgive me for asserting that you or anyone else is trying to tie relavance to AMA...what was I thinking???

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