bogbeagle

All the anarchists that I know ... anarcho-capitalists, like myself ... have two basic beliefs.

1 ... The first is that your life and body belong to you ... self-ownership. From that stems the truth that your labour belongs to you; thus property rights.

2 ... The second belief is that it is always wrong to initiate the use of force against another individual. Imagine how your world would change if we all took that PoV. Jesus would most definitely approve, I think.



With those two principles, you have no need for other laws, afaics.



I've heard it said that the difference between a Libertarian and an Anarchist is about 6 to 9 months.

JohnShe

And I though that you were smart enough to figure it out. Go figure? Why am I not disappointed?

JW0311

I like it. Thanks for posting that.

James

Propworn

My Feedback: (3)

Lots of nice little catch phrases, quotes, definitions and other lines and thoughts from manifestos of long dead philosophers and activists. Repeating them verbatim or in the different mutilated forms we have seen here by no means makes you one yourself. I often question one’s ability to think and develop original thought when ones point of argument is someone else’s. Anyone can talk or type but if your serious you have to shoulder arms and step to the front lines not sit behind a monitor and pound on the keyboard.

I took a quick look at the link to the club not much there as I would have suspected. I do notice they have called themselves a club so they are an organized group of known members. As such it is possible to sue the entity as a group or individually.

Heaven forbid but say one of the larger models hits one of the members causing serious harm or even death. You do realize each and every one of you are open to litigation (being named) in the resulting lawsuit. There will be one, you live in the most litigant society on the face of the earth. Waivers don’t mean a thing you cannot sign the rights of your spouse or dependents away.

The land owner is covered how?

Unless you have arranged for your own insurance these should be real concerns, you stand a chance of losing a lot.

Dennis

Sport_Pilot

I assure you the thought was original to me. The quote I found later and agrees with my thought. Actually I cam up with that thought while pondering the many rules of my parents while sitting in a chair facing the corner of the living room.

littlecrankshaf

My Feedback: (58)

I posted earlier, which now seems to be missing...that the TUFF club has plenty of rules...By virtue of being an AMA chartered club with AMA members...so we have AMA rules...do you find those deficient??? Our flying site is typical...

Beyond that we have park rules...city rules...county rules...state rules...fed rules...Plenty of rules...no need to consider more...

Our club members are some of the safest I've ever witnessed anywhere. We have an eye to helping each other to assure the best possible environment.

littlecrankshaf

My Feedback: (58)

Now...when it comes to club rules...it seems far to many clubs shoot themselves in the foot by making poorly worded rules that can ultimately be construed against them...sometimes less really is more!

JohnShe

Have you ever witness a crane lift and actually paid attention to the finely detailed choreography that takes place? I am not kidding you, it is almost a ballet. The risks entailed by even a small model airplane flying through such an activity are numerous with horrendous consequences. Hitting the crane is trivial. You can't imagine the problems that the distraction to the operator, the ground director, theme, payload catchers, the guideline operators would entail. Your ignorance astounds me.

By the way, has anyone caught on to the fact that the list I posted was from the FAA complaint against Pirker?

JohnShe

Our club quotes the AMA rules verbatim. The seem pretty effective considering the AMA safety record.

JohnShe

The TUFF club website made a joke of the rules by linking to blank pages that linked to other blank pages. I don't think you have a set of rules.

JW0311

I noticed in the FAA's complaint against Mr. Pirker that he had operated his UAS under a crane. I was looking through the AMA safety code effective January 1, 2014 and I didn't see any reference to cranes. LCS, you might want to consider that for your club. Some of the allegations against this guy I have no problems with. If in fact people are having to evade being hit by his craft, then this guy should get 50 lashes in front of the court house. I'm not sure about the crane though. Still trying to reason my through that one. Popworm, I'm not sure attacking Sport_pilot for posting that quote does anything to take away from the meaning of the quote. Maybe I missed something but I thought the point of the quote was relevant to the conversation.

James

littlecrankshaf

My Feedback: (58)

I guessed it went over your head...We are not considering more rules at this time... The AMA's rules...as well as the Park rules seem to apply well and find no deficiencies. But maybe you have a list you'd like to subject us to.

Propworn

My Feedback: (3)

I'm always in favor for less that being said how many times does it take before the members get fed up and institute no flying over the pits. Far too many have very little common sense or consideration for others. Even when common sense prevails accidents do happen. Usually rules come after poor choices or actions on the part of a few members. I agree if you have the AMA rules in place and thats all you need good for you guys. At one of the clubs I belong to the road in is very soft this year so we have been asked to wait. Someone refuses to wait and has now torn up the road in places with his car not a rule exactly but now there is a chain and lock when the field is closed. This kind of behavior drives the need for extra rules more than anything.

The reason I mentioned the insurance angle accidents happen best intentions or not. At one of our clubs a few years ago which really woke us up. A long time pilot first flight of the spring is going to fly an easy plane, his trainer just to exercise the thumbs. He asked one other long term pilot to spot for him. The 40 size trainer took off locked full throttle entered the pits and hit one of the pilot’s best friends in the temple. I won't go into the gory details but the pilot has never flown again and the injured party is permanently disabled. During the lawsuit every member of the club present or not, the executive and landowner were named in the action. It’s the nature of litigation take the shotgun out and sue everyone with any form of assets. MAAC eventually settled for over 2 mill, without MAAC the damage financially to the members could have been devastating.

JohnShe

Well, Ayn Rand lived in an alternate universe. Her belief system fails on so many levels that it is more comedy than philosophy. The issue that society makes every action illegal is absurd. The goal of legislation is to protect the individual as well as society. Since laws are made by human beings there is an implied acceptance that error may creep in. Thus it is necessary to evaluate and rewrite or even get rid of defective laws. There are many examples of this activity going on right now.

littlecrankshaf

My Feedback: (58)

Man! This sure gets old...for years the TUFF club has had to endure endless attempts to defame... Probably no other club in the history of model aviation has had the scrutiny we have.

Now, maybe you missed it but the TUFF club is an AMA chartered club...so in that vein not really much different than your club as far as the aspects yo present.

bradpaul

I think I entered the Twilight Zone, is this the RC Universe AMA Discussions or LTUP on another RC site?

littlecrankshaf

My Feedback: (58)

You're the one that opened the tangent we are on now...not me...very rarely do I initiate discussion about our club or much of anything about me personally...but yet its the subject of far to much discussion...and NO...it is not my fault!

littlecrankshaf

My Feedback: (58)

Let's try to get back on point here...OK?

As far as I see it the university has dominion of what they allow on their campus and at the end of the day they will/should be held accountable... Going forward I think they will have more than just a few methods to employ and none of them need to rely on the FAA.

JW0311

I like the example that TUFF club is setting. Using a basic set of guidelines and flying. That's it. simple. Definitely an organization I could embrace. No attempt to regulate what might happen or setting up endless rules to prevent some disaster that will happen or may not happen. I have often wondered if there are some in our society that break the rules simply because they are there and if these folks got the idea to be stupid from the rule itself. I also noticed in the FAA complaint that the operator flew his craft within 15 feet of a statute on campus. Should he have been 16 ft? The more I look at this FAA complaint the more I like the AMA rules. I also noticed the operator did not have an FAA pilot certificate. I was hoping that John was right in that the FAA would come up with some reasonable guidelines. Now I'm not so sure.

James

JW0311

Agreed.

James

Propworn

My Feedback: (3)

Not questioning your involvement so much as trying to understand. If you feel so strongly why you haven't exercised your rights to be involved and have some input where it really matters. Yes I am from another country but I fly on a regular basis in yours (at least once a week in the summer). I fly both sides of the coin as a modeler/hobbyist and in your country I also fly for compensation which is exactly what is being discussed. If I had opportunity to have input in your country I would certainly exercise that option. The quad copters and their derivatives do not really interest me as they don't have a great enough flight time or range and are limited in adverse weather. Fixed wing UAS is where my interest is.

Your interests if rationally presented have value even if others disagree. If enough share your opinions they may listen to them and give them proper consideration if presented reasonably. If you just continue to push the envelope you leave them no recourse but to throw up another rule/regulation/law. Just like the member who keeps flying over the pits because there isn’t a rule against it.

One recent development in Canada, there was no opportunity to fly models over the 75 lb. limit. That was the cut off to be considered a model. Many of us were interested in seeing the large models that were flying in the US come up here and participate in our events. Transport Canada was adamant if it was over 75 lbs. it was no longer a model. With lobbying and working with Transport Canada MAAC was able to reach an agreement where a waiver was allowed up to 100 lbs. Do you think there would have been any chance of that happening if MAAC had not kept open communication and cooperation with Transport Canada? You might consider that when you criticize the AMA for dancing arm in arm with the FAA.

Dennis

JohnShe

Rule #1. "Model aircraft will not be flown:
(a) In a careless or reckless manner.
(b) At a location where model aircraft activities are prohibited.."

JohnShe

Actually, that is incorrect. The university leadership had no knowledge of Pirker's actions. he was hired and being paid by a consultant to UVA as part of some ill conceived marketing ploy.

I hope that UVA has since terminated their contract.

JohnShe

But, your website doesn't say that. If you are following AMA rules, then you are neither anarchists nor libertarians.

Propworn

My Feedback: (3)

HUH?????? Where am I trying to defame your club I stated I think is good you don't need extra rules, we are not so lucky. AMA or not anyone can be named in a lawsuit. If you have followed the AMA guidelines you should be fine if they find you negligent it may be a different outcome.


Dennis