RC Familiarization Flights for non-AMA members?
03-28-2014, 04:04 AM
#26
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I'll go away from here now, I appreciate everyone's participation and opinion. That was what I was after.
It would seem at this point the actual consensus would be "don't know", since the only cited AMA documentation is about other situations than mine.
Thanks again!
03-28-2014, 09:38 AM
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Hi Everyone. i believe what we need is a clarification on the subject. the "AMA Introductory Pilot Program" will allow a student (any age) to train for 60 days without AMA insurance and will be covered by the AMA provided they are on an AMA sanctioned field with an AMA certified instructor pilot. end of story. http://www.modelaircraft.org/files/917.pdf
03-28-2014, 10:19 AM
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Hi Everyone. i believe what we need is a clarification on the subject. the "AMA Introductory Pilot Program" will allow a student (any age) to train for 60 days without AMA insurance and will be covered by the AMA provided they are on an AMA sanctioned field with an AMA certified instructor pilot. end of story. http://www.modelaircraft.org/files/917.pdf
OP made it clear he is not intending to do intro flights at an AMA [chartered club site] but rather one where exclusive use has not been granted to a club by the site owner, and another complication he has deal with is the site use permit requires all users to be AMA members or show equivalent personal liability coverage meaning in practical effect his students are required to be AMA members anyway. The site owner apparently tried to do the right thing and keep the public property open to the public rather than have it privatized by a club/organization but unless OP can get it changed, access by the public (e.g., students that OP is willing to introduce to model flying) are barred from being there.
03-28-2014, 12:56 PM
#32
bob,
what most of us do is take the stance of, what the AMA don't know about will not hurt us. and just let the folks try their hand at R/C.
after all, just how easy is it to pull the buddy box cable in a hurry, and forget it was ever connected.
course, i have NEVER had a problem when someone was connected by buddy box, so your mileage may vary.
what most of us do is take the stance of, what the AMA don't know about will not hurt us. and just let the folks try their hand at R/C.
after all, just how easy is it to pull the buddy box cable in a hurry, and forget it was ever connected.
course, i have NEVER had a problem when someone was connected by buddy box, so your mileage may vary.
03-28-2014, 02:29 PM
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At our air show event last year, we put 100 people, mostly kids on the buddy box. One thing I tell my instructors is that THEY have control over the plane. The student doesn't crash they do by not staying a step ahead. When we fly little kids that like to throw the sticks in a corner and hold them, the instructor will let them think that they are flying. I always thought that a big part of the hobby was to introduce it to others. Last year we had a handicapped little boy in a wheelchair. His mother was so happy that she was almost in tears. She told me that was the most excited she saw her child all Summer. That's why I would tell people to take the time and show people the hobby. You never know what good that can come out of it.
03-28-2014, 04:09 PM
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RC Familiarization Flights for non-AMA members?
the Question?
Would like to hear various input on how your club(s) or flying sites accommodate the non-AMA member who wants to have some "testing the waters" RC flights on buddy box with qualified and AMA-member "training pilots" ? Here's the conditions specifically...
1. Flying site owner requires users of facility to have AMA (or equivalent personal liability) (Why? it doesn't cover them in the event of an accident only the AMA member.)
2. Liability coverage through AMA is valid for the AMA member only, if I recall the fine print correctly, so the "training pilot" is covered but NOT if in violation of Safety Code. (You can argue this case)
3. Is there any liability extension of AMA coverage to a non-AMA member meeting this scenario? ( No)
---------
Bob Maybe this will help.
I agree 100% with CJ and see Mongo's opinion. We are very lucky that 99% of the AMA members are responsible adults and take all the safety precautions necessary. the only problem with Mongo's scenario is if something does happen, (99% chance it won't), like someone gets really hurt, is the AMA member going to take responsibility and the financial risk alone or are they going to do the right thing and use the AMA Introductory pilot program so everyone will be covered?
A solution to property owner is they can allow the club to manage the field but not allow the club to insist everyone become a club member as is the arrangement of many clubs that fly on township or county land. We have this arrangement in NJ and it works out great! the owner not only gets the benefit of the AMA insurance because it is now a sanctioned field but can rely on the club to maintain the safety aspect of the field. Another byproduct for the club is you will see how many people will join the club to be part of the fun. Nobody in our county park has to join the club but we are allowed to handle the safety aspect of it. if we do have a real problem we call a ranger or at my other club involve the owner. Most of the time the club can handle it. The problem I see is does the site ,be it public or private, understand that if anything does happen HE/Township is NOT covered by the AMA unless they are specifically mentioned in the field AMA insurance? That's why the AMA sanctions the field. I have attached the forms necessary for insurance. You do have to be a club in name. http://www.modelaircraft.org/files/25.pdf, http://www.modelaircraft.org/files/904.pdf. hate to be a party pooper. We have a club that doesn't meet at all and only has executives. The club doesn't vote on anything, all decisions are up to the executives with the major input from the owner, by doing this you can obtain insurance and you know in the case of an accident the owner will be mentioned in the law suit.
Again just my 2 Cents as an AMA District II Associate Vice President
Would like to hear various input on how your club(s) or flying sites accommodate the non-AMA member who wants to have some "testing the waters" RC flights on buddy box with qualified and AMA-member "training pilots" ? Here's the conditions specifically...
1. Flying site owner requires users of facility to have AMA (or equivalent personal liability) (Why? it doesn't cover them in the event of an accident only the AMA member.)
2. Liability coverage through AMA is valid for the AMA member only, if I recall the fine print correctly, so the "training pilot" is covered but NOT if in violation of Safety Code. (You can argue this case)
3. Is there any liability extension of AMA coverage to a non-AMA member meeting this scenario? ( No)
---------
Bob Maybe this will help.
I agree 100% with CJ and see Mongo's opinion. We are very lucky that 99% of the AMA members are responsible adults and take all the safety precautions necessary. the only problem with Mongo's scenario is if something does happen, (99% chance it won't), like someone gets really hurt, is the AMA member going to take responsibility and the financial risk alone or are they going to do the right thing and use the AMA Introductory pilot program so everyone will be covered?
A solution to property owner is they can allow the club to manage the field but not allow the club to insist everyone become a club member as is the arrangement of many clubs that fly on township or county land. We have this arrangement in NJ and it works out great! the owner not only gets the benefit of the AMA insurance because it is now a sanctioned field but can rely on the club to maintain the safety aspect of the field. Another byproduct for the club is you will see how many people will join the club to be part of the fun. Nobody in our county park has to join the club but we are allowed to handle the safety aspect of it. if we do have a real problem we call a ranger or at my other club involve the owner. Most of the time the club can handle it. The problem I see is does the site ,be it public or private, understand that if anything does happen HE/Township is NOT covered by the AMA unless they are specifically mentioned in the field AMA insurance? That's why the AMA sanctions the field. I have attached the forms necessary for insurance. You do have to be a club in name. http://www.modelaircraft.org/files/25.pdf, http://www.modelaircraft.org/files/904.pdf. hate to be a party pooper. We have a club that doesn't meet at all and only has executives. The club doesn't vote on anything, all decisions are up to the executives with the major input from the owner, by doing this you can obtain insurance and you know in the case of an accident the owner will be mentioned in the law suit.
Again just my 2 Cents as an AMA District II Associate Vice President
03-29-2014, 05:37 AM
#36
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I emailed AMA member support and received this response this morning. Thanks to those who provided constructive and helpful input for the scenario I described (I also include below my email content to AMA, which also details the specifics of the scenario in question). Here is the email content:
CONTENT BELOW:
Hello Bob,
Thank you for contacting AMA. Based on the information you provided in your inquiry the liability coverage provided to you through your AMA membership would respond if you caused an accident.
Best regards,
Ilona Maine
Safety & Member Benefits
Academy of Model Aeronautics
AMA is always striving to supply the best in customer service. Your opinion is important to us. Please take a few moments to complete our 5 question survey by clicking HERE.
From: Bob Pastorello [mailto:]
Sent: Friday, March 28, 2014 8:34 AM
To: Ilona Maine
Subject: AMA Safety Code/Insurance Question
Good morning. My AMA number is 46373. I would like clarification of a potential issue regarding my AMA insurance coverage. If you are not the person who handles this sort of thing, would you please forward it?
I fly at a non-AMA Chartered field, and there is not a Chartered AMA club at the site. My question relates to when/if I provide familiarization training flights for NON-AMA members who are interested in the hobby. In this scenario, I would be using *my* RC equipment and a buddy-box system to provide control override of the "other person".
I know there is no program coverage for this other person unless THEY are an AMA member, and I would clarify with them the liability issues of their actions before proceeding with flight.
The question I have is - under the scenario I described - what is the status of *MY* AMA member insurance liability/property damage coverage? I would be operating within the Safety Code at all times.
I would appreciate your research and response to this concern. Thank you.--
Bob Pastorello, AMA46373
END EMAIL CONTENT
CONTENT BELOW:
Hello Bob,
Thank you for contacting AMA. Based on the information you provided in your inquiry the liability coverage provided to you through your AMA membership would respond if you caused an accident.
Best regards,
Ilona Maine
Safety & Member Benefits
Academy of Model Aeronautics
AMA is always striving to supply the best in customer service. Your opinion is important to us. Please take a few moments to complete our 5 question survey by clicking HERE.
From: Bob Pastorello [mailto:]
Sent: Friday, March 28, 2014 8:34 AM
To: Ilona Maine
Subject: AMA Safety Code/Insurance Question
Good morning. My AMA number is 46373. I would like clarification of a potential issue regarding my AMA insurance coverage. If you are not the person who handles this sort of thing, would you please forward it?
I fly at a non-AMA Chartered field, and there is not a Chartered AMA club at the site. My question relates to when/if I provide familiarization training flights for NON-AMA members who are interested in the hobby. In this scenario, I would be using *my* RC equipment and a buddy-box system to provide control override of the "other person".
I know there is no program coverage for this other person unless THEY are an AMA member, and I would clarify with them the liability issues of their actions before proceeding with flight.
The question I have is - under the scenario I described - what is the status of *MY* AMA member insurance liability/property damage coverage? I would be operating within the Safety Code at all times.
I would appreciate your research and response to this concern. Thank you.--
Bob Pastorello, AMA46373
END EMAIL CONTENT
03-29-2014, 05:46 AM
#37
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I emailed AMA member support and received this response this morning. Thanks to those who provided constructive and helpful input for the scenario I described (I also include below my email content to AMA, which also details the specifics of the scenario in question). Here is the email content:
CONTENT BELOW:
Hello Bob,
Thank you for contacting AMA. Based on the information you provided in your inquiry the liability coverage provided to you through your AMA membership would respond if you caused an accident.
Best regards,
Ilona Maine
Safety & Member Benefits
Academy of Model Aeronautics
AMA is always striving to supply the best in customer service. Your opinion is important to us. Please take a few moments to complete our 5 question survey by clicking HERE.
From: Bob Pastorello [mailto:]
Sent: Friday, March 28, 2014 8:34 AM
To: Ilona Maine
Subject: AMA Safety Code/Insurance Question
Good morning. My AMA number is 46373. I would like clarification of a potential issue regarding my AMA insurance coverage. If you are not the person who handles this sort of thing, would you please forward it?
I fly at a non-AMA Chartered field, and there is not a Chartered AMA club at the site. My question relates to when/if I provide familiarization training flights for NON-AMA members who are interested in the hobby. In this scenario, I would be using *my* RC equipment and a buddy-box system to provide control override of the "other person".
I know there is no program coverage for this other person unless THEY are an AMA member, and I would clarify with them the liability issues of their actions before proceeding with flight.
The question I have is - under the scenario I described - what is the status of *MY* AMA member insurance liability/property damage coverage? I would be operating within the Safety Code at all times.
I would appreciate your research and response to this concern. Thank you.--
Bob Pastorello, AMA46373
END EMAIL CONTENT
CONTENT BELOW:
Hello Bob,
Thank you for contacting AMA. Based on the information you provided in your inquiry the liability coverage provided to you through your AMA membership would respond if you caused an accident.
Best regards,
Ilona Maine
Safety & Member Benefits
Academy of Model Aeronautics
AMA is always striving to supply the best in customer service. Your opinion is important to us. Please take a few moments to complete our 5 question survey by clicking HERE.
From: Bob Pastorello [mailto:]
Sent: Friday, March 28, 2014 8:34 AM
To: Ilona Maine
Subject: AMA Safety Code/Insurance Question
Good morning. My AMA number is 46373. I would like clarification of a potential issue regarding my AMA insurance coverage. If you are not the person who handles this sort of thing, would you please forward it?
I fly at a non-AMA Chartered field, and there is not a Chartered AMA club at the site. My question relates to when/if I provide familiarization training flights for NON-AMA members who are interested in the hobby. In this scenario, I would be using *my* RC equipment and a buddy-box system to provide control override of the "other person".
I know there is no program coverage for this other person unless THEY are an AMA member, and I would clarify with them the liability issues of their actions before proceeding with flight.
The question I have is - under the scenario I described - what is the status of *MY* AMA member insurance liability/property damage coverage? I would be operating within the Safety Code at all times.
I would appreciate your research and response to this concern. Thank you.--
Bob Pastorello, AMA46373
END EMAIL CONTENT
Last edited by littlecrankshaf; 03-29-2014 at 05:59 AM.
03-29-2014, 06:14 AM
#38
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Yes, noted, with the additional statement of presumed causality. Seems like a before-the-fact determination of liability. Except that by definition, "liability" infers responsibility for actions of the insured, anyway. Interesting.
Seems evident that any word-smithing notwithstanding that any incident would be resolved by words of j.d.'s and judges in their language anyway.
We need more lawyers!!!
Seems evident that any word-smithing notwithstanding that any incident would be resolved by words of j.d.'s and judges in their language anyway.
We need more lawyers!!!
03-29-2014, 06:18 AM
#39
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Yes, noted, with the additional statement of presumed causality. Seems like a before-the-fact determination of liability. Except that by definition, "liability" infers responsibility for actions of the insured, anyway. Interesting.
Seems evident that any word-smithing notwithstanding that any incident would be resolved by words of j.d.'s and judges in their language anyway.
We need more lawyers!!!
Seems evident that any word-smithing notwithstanding that any incident would be resolved by words of j.d.'s and judges in their language anyway.
We need more lawyers!!!
I have reason to believe you have the best insurance a fellow could have...good common sense and an eye to safety.
Last edited by littlecrankshaf; 03-29-2014 at 06:21 AM.
