Bob Pastorello

My Feedback: (198)

Would like to hear various input on how your club(s) or flying sites accommodate the non-AMA member who wants to have some "testing the waters" RC flights on buddy box with qualified and AMA-member "training pilots" ? Here's the conditions specifically...
1. Flying site owner requires users of facility to have AMA (or equivalent personal liability)
2. Liability coverage through AMA is valid for the AMA member only, if I recall the fine print correctly, so the "training pilot" is covered but NOT if in violation of Safety Code.
3. Is there any liability extension of AMA coverage to a non-AMA member meeting this scenario?

I'd like to hear how different locations and situations have evolved to permit the non-AMA'er to get some stick time and find out if they really want to get into the game or not.....

Lawyers or paralegals with specific knowledge of statutory limits on these subjects more than welcome to share what they may know.

littlecrankshaf

My Feedback: (58)

Not trying to be a smart azz but condition #1 dictates most considerations and nullifies your question greatly...after that conditional prerequisite is met, then then rest is case by case... IMO

Bob Pastorello

My Feedback: (198)

Good point; thanks.

Let's assume site owner could be persuaded to modify site use requirements to accommodate these persons for familiarization flights when accompanied/supervised by authorized permit-holders of the site?

Then it's a "who is responsible for damages" question. Anyone know the AMA position on this type of scenario?

littlecrankshaf

My Feedback: (58)

According to AMA "one flight" is allowed with the direct assistance of an AMA member that can take control of model instantanously. The liability is that of the AMA member...

Otherwise by a club pre-approved and registered AMA introductory pilot instructor... The "student" must be "documented"...IIRC that period is for 60 days.

Found this: http://www.modelaircraft.org/files/917.pdf

Bob Pastorello

My Feedback: (198)

Great info, lcf....clearly AMA provisions this extension of coverage to chartered clubs only and then at chartered sites. Interesting....by inference, then, an AMA member may *not* act as an Introductory Pilot Instructor if not at a chartered site in a chartered club. Doing so "voids" AMA liability protection for the member? Hmmm....

littlecrankshaf

My Feedback: (58)

That's how I interpret it too.

bolar

My Feedback: (5)

From AMA pdf file 911

For non-AMA members wishing to experience a “hands-on” model flight, the Academy does allow this, on a one-time basis per person ONLY, (with the use of a Buddy Box system for RC). During this one-time flight, the club is protected through its liability coverage as long as the non-member’s supervised flying is in accordance with the AMA National Model Aircraft Safety Code(s). Under NO situation should the non-member’s equipment or aircraft be used.

ONLY AMA members are insured during this flight per the terms of the liability policy. This coverage is never transferable to the non-AMA member during the permitted one-time trial flight. Should an accident occur during this one-time flight, the person providing the flight assistance must file an accident report. Under the liability policy, the airplane is never insured and the non-AMA member is never insured during this flight.

Bob Pastorello

My Feedback: (198)

Thanks - only pertains to Chartered Clubs; not applicable in these scenarios.
Guess I'll have to try to get AMA to define the conditions of my individual member coverage of *ME* and my activities regarding permitting a non-AMA person to operate my equipment.
I'm ready to put my money on "absolutely, positively, never ever do that under peril of revocation, expulsion, or something worse".
Anyone else?

cj_rumley

A question, Bob -

I presume you are or contemplate using a flying site on property owned by a public entity that does not permit exclusive use by members of any particular organization.....is that right? May or may not be relevant, but it seems narrowing the issue could help you get the most pertinent advice from those that have dealt with it in similar situations.

cj

Bob Pastorello

My Feedback: (198)

cj - Yes. See post #1 "1. Flying site owner requires users of facility to have AMA (or equivalent personal liability). No exclusive use agreement(s) in effect; no membership criterion stated within statutory codes governing use of site.

JohnShe

Are you thinking of the "AMA Introductory Pilot Program"?

bruceal

Our flying site requires that you have a current AMA card, therefore a person that shows up to "try" his plane is not allowed. But however, the buddy box is another thing. We encourage visitors to have a try on one of our trainers. There is also the AMA's Intro Pilot Program that allows a person to be trained for 6 months with no cost to them for equipment. I'm on the fence with that one, after a few flights a person should have an idea on whether or not the hobby is for them. On weekends I bring my own personal trainer for people to try. It's great public relations!

Bob Pastorello

My Feedback: (198)

Thanks, but as noted, the Introductory Pilot program only applies to Chartered CLUBS and CHARTERED flying sites, both of which do not apply in my scenario question.

raptureboy

I'm an AMA intro instructor and we limit the flying to club owned trainers on a specified learn to fly day and no take offs or landings are permitted by the student. After that you need to become an AMA member and club member to continue flying. We allow the student to continue to use the club trainer with a buddy box but they have to own their own equipment when it comes time to solo. As long as the instructor is registerd with the AMA program and all the paperwork is filled out the club is covered.

757jonp

My Feedback: (48)

What Bruce said, well stated I think and pretty much what we do down here.

757jonp

My Feedback: (48)

I would think if you're not with a chartered club or field then you're on your own??? Does AMA even factor into this?

Bob Pastorello

My Feedback: (198)

Yes, as my personal concern is one of whether or not *MY* AMA liability insurance is null if I provide buddy box use of my own equipment for a non-AMA person. Other than that, I can't think of how the AMA enters into the equation, except for my concern.

I don't know all the fine print exclusions that the AMA could use in denying coverage if something were to occur if I provided this familiarization flight for someone.

Bob Pastorello

My Feedback: (198)

This is exactly what I would like to establish, but not with a risk of voiding my own AMA Liability insurance protection. Sort of a "non AMA Intro Pilot Program" ??

757jonp

My Feedback: (48)

Bob... You act like there's a bunch of "ambulance chasing" lawyers hanging out at the end of the runway just hoping your student runs into one of them! You better head down to to your local insurance agent and take out a personal liability policy for a couple million..... then go fly! Personally the AMA insurance isn't all that great anyway when you read into it. Pretty much insurance of last resort.

Bob Pastorello

My Feedback: (198)

Thank you.
The "Student's" actions are of no concern; what they do is theirs to own.
My concern is selfish as you have pointed out - I will not risk the insurance coverage, whatever minimal value you think it may be. That is an opinion.
I posted here to find out if anyone knew about this potential concern, not to enter a debate on the value of secondary coverage.

warningshot

Bob
Call AMA and get the answer straight from the "horses mouth" so to speak. 1-800-435-9262 Ext 251

Bob Pastorello

My Feedback: (198)

I was hoping to not have "to poke the bear", so to speak. Sometimes I've seen innocent questions result in fire and brimstone (and new regulations). Sure wouldn't want that to happen, but you may be right.

I've been an AMA member since 1976, original ama number 16711, now 46373, and I've got to admit that I've never seen or heard this particular question brought up, although I've been curious about how others have handled it through the years. Guess that only proves that we don't know enough.

757jonp

My Feedback: (48)

I find it disturbing that you wouldn't call the AMA for clarification of this subject. You and I have both PAID for them guys to sit around up there in beautiful downtown Muncie and wait for a call from you just to clarify this issue.

Put them guys to work! That's what they're there for.

Bob Pastorello

My Feedback: (198)

757jonp - you get very easily "disturbed". Sorry for that. Please see post 22.

rgburrill

I've heard that question brought up several times and I think the answer has been given here several times but you keep asking. Yes, your AMA insurance is null and void in your stated situation.