RC Familiarization Flights for non-AMA members?
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RC Familiarization Flights for non-AMA members?
Would like to hear various input on how your club(s) or flying sites accommodate the non-AMA member who wants to have some "testing the waters" RC flights on buddy box with qualified and AMA-member "training pilots" ? Here's the conditions specifically...
1. Flying site owner requires users of facility to have AMA (or equivalent personal liability)
2. Liability coverage through AMA is valid for the AMA member only, if I recall the fine print correctly, so the "training pilot" is covered but NOT if in violation of Safety Code.
3. Is there any liability extension of AMA coverage to a non-AMA member meeting this scenario?
I'd like to hear how different locations and situations have evolved to permit the non-AMA'er to get some stick time and find out if they really want to get into the game or not.....
Lawyers or paralegals with specific knowledge of statutory limits on these subjects more than welcome to share what they may know.
1. Flying site owner requires users of facility to have AMA (or equivalent personal liability)
2. Liability coverage through AMA is valid for the AMA member only, if I recall the fine print correctly, so the "training pilot" is covered but NOT if in violation of Safety Code.
3. Is there any liability extension of AMA coverage to a non-AMA member meeting this scenario?
I'd like to hear how different locations and situations have evolved to permit the non-AMA'er to get some stick time and find out if they really want to get into the game or not.....
Lawyers or paralegals with specific knowledge of statutory limits on these subjects more than welcome to share what they may know.
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Would like to hear various input on how your club(s) or flying sites accommodate the non-AMA member who wants to have some "testing the waters" RC flights on buddy box with qualified and AMA-member "training pilots" ? Here's the conditions specifically...
1. Flying site owner requires users of facility to have AMA (or equivalent personal liability)
2. Liability coverage through AMA is valid for the AMA member only, if I recall the fine print correctly, so the "training pilot" is covered but NOT if in violation of Safety Code.
3. Is there any liability extension of AMA coverage to a non-AMA member meeting this scenario?
I'd like to hear how different locations and situations have evolved to permit the non-AMA'er to get some stick time and find out if they really want to get into the game or not.....
Lawyers or paralegals with specific knowledge of statutory limits on these subjects more than welcome to share what they may know.
1. Flying site owner requires users of facility to have AMA (or equivalent personal liability)
2. Liability coverage through AMA is valid for the AMA member only, if I recall the fine print correctly, so the "training pilot" is covered but NOT if in violation of Safety Code.
3. Is there any liability extension of AMA coverage to a non-AMA member meeting this scenario?
I'd like to hear how different locations and situations have evolved to permit the non-AMA'er to get some stick time and find out if they really want to get into the game or not.....
Lawyers or paralegals with specific knowledge of statutory limits on these subjects more than welcome to share what they may know.
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Good point; thanks.
Let's assume site owner could be persuaded to modify site use requirements to accommodate these persons for familiarization flights when accompanied/supervised by authorized permit-holders of the site?
Then it's a "who is responsible for damages" question. Anyone know the AMA position on this type of scenario?
Let's assume site owner could be persuaded to modify site use requirements to accommodate these persons for familiarization flights when accompanied/supervised by authorized permit-holders of the site?
Then it's a "who is responsible for damages" question. Anyone know the AMA position on this type of scenario?
Last edited by Bob Pastorello; 03-27-2014 at 03:54 AM.
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Good point; thanks.
Let's assume site owner could be persuaded to modify site use requirements to accommodate these persons for familiarization flights when accompanied/supervised by authorized permit-holders of the site?
Then it's a "who is responsible for damages" question. Anyone know the AMA position on this type of scenario?
Let's assume site owner could be persuaded to modify site use requirements to accommodate these persons for familiarization flights when accompanied/supervised by authorized permit-holders of the site?
Then it's a "who is responsible for damages" question. Anyone know the AMA position on this type of scenario?
Otherwise by a club pre-approved and registered AMA introductory pilot instructor... The "student" must be "documented"...IIRC that period is for 60 days.
Found this: http://www.modelaircraft.org/files/917.pdf
Last edited by littlecrankshaf; 03-27-2014 at 04:11 AM.
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Great info, lcf....clearly AMA provisions this extension of coverage to chartered clubs only and then at chartered sites. Interesting....by inference, then, an AMA member may *not* act as an Introductory Pilot Instructor if not at a chartered site in a chartered club. Doing so "voids" AMA liability protection for the member? Hmmm....
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Great info, lcf....clearly AMA provisions this extension of coverage to chartered clubs only and then at chartered sites. Interesting....by inference, then, an AMA member may *not* act as an Introductory Pilot Instructor if not at a chartered site in a chartered club. Doing so "voids" AMA liability protection for the member? Hmmm....
#7
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From AMA pdf file 911
For non-AMA members wishing to experience a “hands-on” model flight, the Academy does allow this, on a one-time basis per person ONLY, (with the use of a Buddy Box system for RC). During this one-time flight, the club is protected through its liability coverage as long as the non-member’s supervised flying is in accordance with the AMA National Model Aircraft Safety Code(s). Under NO situation should the non-member’s equipment or aircraft be used.
ONLY AMA members are insured during this flight per the terms of the liability policy. This coverage is never transferable to the non-AMA member during the permitted one-time trial flight. Should an accident occur during this one-time flight, the person providing the flight assistance must file an accident report. Under the liability policy, the airplane is never insured and the non-AMA member is never insured during this flight.
For non-AMA members wishing to experience a “hands-on” model flight, the Academy does allow this, on a one-time basis per person ONLY, (with the use of a Buddy Box system for RC). During this one-time flight, the club is protected through its liability coverage as long as the non-member’s supervised flying is in accordance with the AMA National Model Aircraft Safety Code(s). Under NO situation should the non-member’s equipment or aircraft be used.
ONLY AMA members are insured during this flight per the terms of the liability policy. This coverage is never transferable to the non-AMA member during the permitted one-time trial flight. Should an accident occur during this one-time flight, the person providing the flight assistance must file an accident report. Under the liability policy, the airplane is never insured and the non-AMA member is never insured during this flight.
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Thanks - only pertains to Chartered Clubs; not applicable in these scenarios.
Guess I'll have to try to get AMA to define the conditions of my individual member coverage of *ME* and my activities regarding permitting a non-AMA person to operate my equipment.
I'm ready to put my money on "absolutely, positively, never ever do that under peril of revocation, expulsion, or something worse".
Anyone else?
Guess I'll have to try to get AMA to define the conditions of my individual member coverage of *ME* and my activities regarding permitting a non-AMA person to operate my equipment.
I'm ready to put my money on "absolutely, positively, never ever do that under peril of revocation, expulsion, or something worse".
Anyone else?
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A question, Bob -
I presume you are or contemplate using a flying site on property owned by a public entity that does not permit exclusive use by members of any particular organization.....is that right? May or may not be relevant, but it seems narrowing the issue could help you get the most pertinent advice from those that have dealt with it in similar situations.
cj
I presume you are or contemplate using a flying site on property owned by a public entity that does not permit exclusive use by members of any particular organization.....is that right? May or may not be relevant, but it seems narrowing the issue could help you get the most pertinent advice from those that have dealt with it in similar situations.
cj
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cj - Yes. See post #1 "1. Flying site owner requires users of facility to have AMA (or equivalent personal liability). No exclusive use agreement(s) in effect; no membership criterion stated within statutory codes governing use of site.
Last edited by Bob Pastorello; 03-27-2014 at 10:02 AM.
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Would like to hear various input on how your club(s) or flying sites accommodate the non-AMA member who wants to have some "testing the waters" RC flights on buddy box with qualified and AMA-member "training pilots" ? Here's the conditions specifically...
1. Flying site owner requires users of facility to have AMA (or equivalent personal liability)
2. Liability coverage through AMA is valid for the AMA member only, if I recall the fine print correctly, so the "training pilot" is covered but NOT if in violation of Safety Code.
3. Is there any liability extension of AMA coverage to a non-AMA member meeting this scenario?
I'd like to hear how different locations and situations have evolved to permit the non-AMA'er to get some stick time and find out if they really want to get into the game or not.....
Lawyers or paralegals with specific knowledge of statutory limits on these subjects more than welcome to share what they may know.
1. Flying site owner requires users of facility to have AMA (or equivalent personal liability)
2. Liability coverage through AMA is valid for the AMA member only, if I recall the fine print correctly, so the "training pilot" is covered but NOT if in violation of Safety Code.
3. Is there any liability extension of AMA coverage to a non-AMA member meeting this scenario?
I'd like to hear how different locations and situations have evolved to permit the non-AMA'er to get some stick time and find out if they really want to get into the game or not.....
Lawyers or paralegals with specific knowledge of statutory limits on these subjects more than welcome to share what they may know.
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Our flying site requires that you have a current AMA card, therefore a person that shows up to "try" his plane is not allowed. But however, the buddy box is another thing. We encourage visitors to have a try on one of our trainers. There is also the AMA's Intro Pilot Program that allows a person to be trained for 6 months with no cost to them for equipment. I'm on the fence with that one, after a few flights a person should have an idea on whether or not the hobby is for them. On weekends I bring my own personal trainer for people to try. It's great public relations!
#14
I'm an AMA intro instructor and we limit the flying to club owned trainers on a specified learn to fly day and no take offs or landings are permitted by the student. After that you need to become an AMA member and club member to continue flying. We allow the student to continue to use the club trainer with a buddy box but they have to own their own equipment when it comes time to solo. As long as the instructor is registerd with the AMA program and all the paperwork is filled out the club is covered.
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I don't know all the fine print exclusions that the AMA could use in denying coverage if something were to occur if I provided this familiarization flight for someone.
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Our flying site requires that you have a current AMA card, therefore a person that shows up to "try" his plane is not allowed. But however, the buddy box is another thing. We encourage visitors to have a try on one of our trainers. There is also the AMA's Intro Pilot Program that allows a person to be trained for 6 months with no cost to them for equipment. I'm on the fence with that one, after a few flights a person should have an idea on whether or not the hobby is for them. On weekends I bring my own personal trainer for people to try. It's great public relations!
#19
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Bob... You act like there's a bunch of "ambulance chasing" lawyers hanging out at the end of the runway just hoping your student runs into one of them! You better head down to to your local insurance agent and take out a personal liability policy for a couple million..... then go fly! Personally the AMA insurance isn't all that great anyway when you read into it. Pretty much insurance of last resort.
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Bob... You act like there's a bunch of "ambulance chasing" lawyers hanging out at the end of the runway just hoping your student runs into one of them! You better head down to to your local insurance agent and take out a personal liability policy for a couple million..... then go fly! Personally the AMA insurance isn't all that great anyway when you read into it. Pretty much insurance of last resort.
The "Student's" actions are of no concern; what they do is theirs to own.
My concern is selfish as you have pointed out - I will not risk the insurance coverage, whatever minimal value you think it may be. That is an opinion.
I posted here to find out if anyone knew about this potential concern, not to enter a debate on the value of secondary coverage.
Last edited by Bob Pastorello; 03-27-2014 at 01:57 PM.
#21
Thank you.
The "Student's" actions are of no concern; what they do is theirs to own.
My concern is selfish as you have pointed out - I will not risk the insurance coverage, whatever minimal value you think it may be. That is an opinion.
I posted here to find out if anyone knew about this potential concern, not to enter a debate on the value of secondary coverage.
The "Student's" actions are of no concern; what they do is theirs to own.
My concern is selfish as you have pointed out - I will not risk the insurance coverage, whatever minimal value you think it may be. That is an opinion.
I posted here to find out if anyone knew about this potential concern, not to enter a debate on the value of secondary coverage.
Call AMA and get the answer straight from the "horses mouth" so to speak. 1-800-435-9262 Ext 251
Last edited by warningshot; 03-27-2014 at 05:52 PM.
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I've been an AMA member since 1976, original ama number 16711, now 46373, and I've got to admit that I've never seen or heard this particular question brought up, although I've been curious about how others have handled it through the years. Guess that only proves that we don't know enough.
#23
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I find it disturbing that you wouldn't call the AMA for clarification of this subject. You and I have both PAID for them guys to sit around up there in beautiful downtown Muncie and wait for a call from you just to clarify this issue.
Put them guys to work! That's what they're there for.
Put them guys to work! That's what they're there for.
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I find it disturbing that you wouldn't call the AMA for clarification of this subject. You and I have both PAID for them guys to sit around up there in beautiful downtown Muncie and wait for a call from you just to clarify this issue.
Put them guys to work! That's what they're there for.
Put them guys to work! That's what they're there for.
#25
I've heard that question brought up several times and I think the answer has been given here several times but you keep asking. Yes, your AMA insurance is null and void in your stated situation.