FAA Issues "Interpretation of the special rule for model aircraft"
08-21-2014, 02:52 PM
#776
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What wishful thinking..............................
If the FAA declares that flying within 5 miles of an airport WITHOUT the airports permission endangers the NAS then they can take action no matter what S 336 says or doesn't say................. did you miss the part that said "Nothing in this section shall be construed to limit the authority of the Administrator "
Nothing to do with what the regulations are today.......................... if they (FAA) feel the activity endangers the NAS they can completely ignore the rest of 336 and pursue enforcement action.
08-21-2014, 03:04 PM
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08-21-2014, 03:08 PM
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BradPaul, You are talking about two different critters. There is enforcement action and there is new rule making/new regulation. YOU HAVE LEFT OUT FACTS in your statement.
336 (b) states the following:
Statutory Construction. - Nothing in this section shall be construed to limit the authority of the Administrator to pursue enforcement action against persons operating model aircraft who endanger the safety of the national airspace system.
The key phrase here is ENFORCEMENT ACTION which has nothing to do with regulation or new rules.
Also, the new 5 mile rule is in 336 (5). It is NOT a rule the FAA decided to do after the passing of 336.
336 (b) states the following:
Statutory Construction. - Nothing in this section shall be construed to limit the authority of the Administrator to pursue enforcement action against persons operating model aircraft who endanger the safety of the national airspace system.
The key phrase here is ENFORCEMENT ACTION which has nothing to do with regulation or new rules.
Also, the new 5 mile rule is in 336 (5). It is NOT a rule the FAA decided to do after the passing of 336.
Last edited by TimJ; 08-21-2014 at 03:11 PM.
08-21-2014, 04:36 PM
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What wishful thinking..............................
If the FAA declares that flying within 5 miles of an airport WITHOUT the airports permission endangers the NAS then they can take action no matter what S 336 says or doesn't say................. did you miss the part that said "Nothing in this section shall be construed to limit the authority of the Administrator "
Nothing to do with what the regulations are today.......................... if they (FAA) feel the activity endangers the NAS they can completely ignore the rest of 336 and pursue enforcement action.
If the FAA declares that flying within 5 miles of an airport WITHOUT the airports permission endangers the NAS then they can take action no matter what S 336 says or doesn't say................. did you miss the part that said "Nothing in this section shall be construed to limit the authority of the Administrator "
Nothing to do with what the regulations are today.......................... if they (FAA) feel the activity endangers the NAS they can completely ignore the rest of 336 and pursue enforcement action.
08-21-2014, 04:48 PM
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BradPaul, You are talking about two different critters. There is enforcement action and there is new rule making/new regulation. YOU HAVE LEFT OUT FACTS in your statement.
336 (b) states the following:
Statutory Construction. - Nothing in this section shall be construed to limit the authority of the Administrator to pursue enforcement action against persons operating model aircraft who endanger the safety of the national airspace system.
The key phrase here is ENFORCEMENT ACTION which has nothing to do with regulation or new rules.
Also, the new 5 mile rule is in 336 (5). It is NOT a rule the FAA decided to do after the passing of 336.
336 (b) states the following:
Statutory Construction. - Nothing in this section shall be construed to limit the authority of the Administrator to pursue enforcement action against persons operating model aircraft who endanger the safety of the national airspace system.
The key phrase here is ENFORCEMENT ACTION which has nothing to do with regulation or new rules.
Also, the new 5 mile rule is in 336 (5). It is NOT a rule the FAA decided to do after the passing of 336.
http://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/FR-2014...2014-14948.pdf
and carefully read
III. Scope of FAA’s Enforcement Authority
and
IV. Examples of Regulations That Apply to Model Aircraft
to understand what "enforcement Authority" and "Regulations" the FAA will use to enforce safety in the NAS.
Last edited by bradpaul; 08-21-2014 at 04:52 PM.
08-21-2014, 04:58 PM
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As for new 5 mile rule, I think there is a general awareness in our modeling community that it was made statutory by Congress and FAA's role is as agent to enforce it. What possesses some folks to argue about it is the way FAA interprets what Congress told them do, not that FAA created it as a new rule after Sec 336, i.e., the 'permission' vs 'notification' flap.
08-21-2014, 05:01 PM
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I seriously suggest that the doubters revisit
http://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/FR-2014...2014-14948.pdf
and carefully read
III. Scope of FAA’s Enforcement Authority
and
IV. Examples of Regulations That Apply to Model Aircraft
to understand what "enforcement Authority" and "Regulations" the FAA will use to enforce safety in the NAS.
http://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/FR-2014...2014-14948.pdf
and carefully read
III. Scope of FAA’s Enforcement Authority
and
IV. Examples of Regulations That Apply to Model Aircraft
to understand what "enforcement Authority" and "Regulations" the FAA will use to enforce safety in the NAS.
"As discussed above, if a model aircraft is operated consistently with the terms of section 336(a) and (c), then it would not be subject to future FAA regulations regarding model aircraft."
08-21-2014, 09:37 PM
#785
Yup. That's why the FAA Interpretive Rule says FAR 91 will apply, as it is the EXISTING 'catch all' (among hosts of other FARs) that already are on the books that CAN, and likely WILL be applied to what we and they call model aircraft, once said model aircraft operates outside the rules of the CBO. In other words, the definition of "model aircraft" really only applies as long as the operator isn't violating anything. Once a violator, then FAA says they can (and probably will) throw a much larger chunk of the FARs at the violator.
However 336 also has this.
(b) STATUTORY CONSTRUCTION.—Nothing in this section shall
be construed to limit the authority of the Administrator to pursue
enforcement action against persons operating model aircraft who
endanger the safety of the national airspace system.
be construed to limit the authority of the Administrator to pursue
enforcement action against persons operating model aircraft who
endanger the safety of the national airspace system.
08-21-2014, 09:44 PM
#786
The FAA can enforce the regulations that are on the books. This does not mean they can create new regulations against Model Aviation to enforce the safety of the NAS.
08-21-2014, 09:46 PM
#787
08-22-2014, 04:13 AM
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Brad, when you refer to the Interpretation of the Special Rule for Model Aircraft, are you referring to this statement?
"As discussed above, if a model aircraft is operated consistently with the terms of section 336(a) and (c), then it would not be subject to future FAA regulations regarding model aircraft."
"As discussed above, if a model aircraft is operated consistently with the terms of section 336(a) and (c), then it would not be subject to future FAA regulations regarding model aircraft."
III. Scope of FAA’s Enforcement
Authority
As discussed above, if a model aircraft is operated consistently with the terms of section 336(a) and (c), then it would not be subject to future FAA regulations
regarding model aircraft. However, Congress also recognized the potential for such operations to endanger other
aircraft and systems of the NAS. Therefore, it specifically stated that ‘‘[n]othing in this section shall be
construed to limit the authority of the Administrator to pursue enforcement action against persons operating model
aircraft who endanger the safety of the national airspace system.’’
regarding model aircraft. However, Congress also recognized the potential for such operations to endanger other
aircraft and systems of the NAS. Therefore, it specifically stated that ‘‘[n]othing in this section shall be
construed to limit the authority of the Administrator to pursue enforcement action against persons operating model
aircraft who endanger the safety of the national airspace system.’’
Bottom line is the FAA has the legal authority to regulate and enforce actions in the NAS and Sec 336 does not stop that as long as the FAA feels that it has to do with safety to the NAS.
Last edited by bradpaul; 08-22-2014 at 04:18 AM.
08-22-2014, 05:43 AM
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Nice try but no cigar ............................................... Don't stop there.........................
III. Scope of FAA’s Enforcement
Authority
Then the important part begins.
Bottom line is the FAA has the legal authority to regulate and enforce actions in the NAS and Sec 336 does not stop that as long as the FAA feels that it has to do with safety to the NAS.
III. Scope of FAA’s Enforcement
Authority
Then the important part begins.
Bottom line is the FAA has the legal authority to regulate and enforce actions in the NAS and Sec 336 does not stop that as long as the FAA feels that it has to do with safety to the NAS.
No longer is government about defining what is not allowed...its more about interpretation of what is allowed. Talk about bassackwards...
08-22-2014, 06:13 AM
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LCS, you got that right, it continues to amaze me how poster will interpret what the government does by a filter of what they want it to be........................ The bureaucrats are experts in burying the important parts in the details.
That we as "Americans" have ceded all authority on the air we breathe to the FAA and EPA is astounding. But if you are in the government just create fear about safety, terrorism, financial security, "the children" and the sheeple will always trade freedom for security.......................................... .. Sad, very sad................ and the bureaucrats at the AMA just got out maneuvered. There bureaucrats (FAA) are just better then our bureaucrats (AMA).
That we as "Americans" have ceded all authority on the air we breathe to the FAA and EPA is astounding. But if you are in the government just create fear about safety, terrorism, financial security, "the children" and the sheeple will always trade freedom for security.......................................... .. Sad, very sad................ and the bureaucrats at the AMA just got out maneuvered. There bureaucrats (FAA) are just better then our bureaucrats (AMA).
08-22-2014, 07:28 AM
#792
LCS, you got that right, it continues to amaze me how poster will interpret what the government does by a filter of what they want it to be........................ The bureaucrats are experts in burying the important parts in the details.
That we as "Americans" have ceded all authority on the air we breathe to the FAA and EPA is astounding. But if you are in the government just create fear about safety, terrorism, financial security, "the children" and the sheeple will always trade freedom for security.......................................... .. Sad, very sad................ and the bureaucrats at the AMA just got out maneuvered. There bureaucrats (FAA) are just better then our bureaucrats (AMA).
That we as "Americans" have ceded all authority on the air we breathe to the FAA and EPA is astounding. But if you are in the government just create fear about safety, terrorism, financial security, "the children" and the sheeple will always trade freedom for security.......................................... .. Sad, very sad................ and the bureaucrats at the AMA just got out maneuvered. There bureaucrats (FAA) are just better then our bureaucrats (AMA).
Yep, all this stuff in this forum about any government agency and what they do and what they can/cannot can do is mostly a guessing-game that has no winners until the court case becomes defined.
I wonder just how many of these posters have ever been called into court over some Government agency's call on some item and the individual so-called gets informed some months later. Well, I have and it was by the FAA. Nice long story that was fabricated by FAA, but at the time it created a "WOT the L is this all about?"
The first court said "Not Guilty" so all was well. Then some 3 months later I am called because the FAA has taken the item to Federal District Court. That judge simply threw FAA out of court. Much more detail but I posted such as this somewhere in RCU long time ago. The FAA was absolutely totally wrong in their case. All actions had been properly accomplished at the time of the incident. FAA just wanted to place the blame on some one other than their selves.
The point here is all of you Philadelphia Lawyers can argue all you want, but when it comes to the real world, any government officer can do pretty much as he/she pleases and then let the court/s deal out whatever they so desire. Then the $$$ take over.
In my opinion, for whatever it may be worth, AMA needs to obtain from FAA, or maybe even Congress, an Official Title of Community Based Organization over all Aeromodeling Activities within the United States and its possessions. It's time that AMA gets into a true business world and quits this toy-land method of playing.
Then it is time that the AMA membership goes to the polls and elects members to the Executive Council that are also more of the business mentality than just toy airplane thinking. Of course said toy-airplane thinking is certainly needed by Council members, yet, IMO, the business end needs to be on top when the council is in session.
Right now I forget, but one of our early government super-thinkers warned us that nothing is safe when the legislature is in session!
YOUR CALL!
08-22-2014, 07:37 AM
#793
LCS, you got that right, it continues to amaze me how poster will interpret what the government does by a filter of what they want it to be........................ The bureaucrats are experts in burying the important parts in the details.
That we as "Americans" have ceded all authority on the air we breathe to the FAA and EPA is astounding. But if you are in the government just create fear about safety, terrorism, financial security, "the children" and the sheeple will always trade freedom for security.......................................... .. Sad, very sad................ and the bureaucrats at the AMA just got out maneuvered. There bureaucrats (FAA) are just better then our bureaucrats (AMA).
That we as "Americans" have ceded all authority on the air we breathe to the FAA and EPA is astounding. But if you are in the government just create fear about safety, terrorism, financial security, "the children" and the sheeple will always trade freedom for security.......................................... .. Sad, very sad................ and the bureaucrats at the AMA just got out maneuvered. There bureaucrats (FAA) are just better then our bureaucrats (AMA).
08-22-2014, 07:54 AM
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Funny but sad how the sheeple fall for that same old scam over and over. Paragraphs of mumbo-jumbo, essentially taking away their rights, all the while seemingly giving privilege providing the gullible sheeple jump through the proper hoops, then take it all back with one fell swoop of just one sentence... They never seem to see that last sentence...
No longer is government about defining what is not allowed...its more about interpretation of what is allowed. Talk about bassackwards...
No longer is government about defining what is not allowed...its more about interpretation of what is allowed. Talk about bassackwards...
08-22-2014, 07:56 AM
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In my opinion, for whatever it may be worth, AMA needs to obtain from FAA, or maybe even Congress, an Official Title of Community Based Organization over all Aeromodeling Activities within the United States and its possessions. It's time that AMA gets into a true business world and quits this toy-land method of playing.
YOUR CALL!
It seems to me our best strategy is to fight for each and everyone of us individually as a whole... I never understood how sacrificing virgins to the gods ever came to be...but I guess some here can understand it...but I never will.
08-22-2014, 07:58 AM
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LCS, you got that right, it continues to amaze me how poster will interpret what the government does by a filter of what they want it to be........................ The bureaucrats are experts in burying the important parts in the details.
That we as "Americans" have ceded all authority on the air we breathe to the FAA and EPA is astounding. But if you are in the government just create fear about safety, terrorism, financial security, "the children" and the sheeple will always trade freedom for security.......................................... .. Sad, very sad................ and the bureaucrats at the AMA just got out maneuvered. There bureaucrats (FAA) are just better then our bureaucrats (AMA).
That we as "Americans" have ceded all authority on the air we breathe to the FAA and EPA is astounding. But if you are in the government just create fear about safety, terrorism, financial security, "the children" and the sheeple will always trade freedom for security.......................................... .. Sad, very sad................ and the bureaucrats at the AMA just got out maneuvered. There bureaucrats (FAA) are just better then our bureaucrats (AMA).
08-22-2014, 08:04 AM
#797
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What rights are being taken away? We never had the right to endanger the NAS. If we follow the CBO rules we can still fly. FPV is not lost to us yet. We need to post rational and lucid comments, that aren't insulting or whiny, to convince the FAA that we can fly FPV safely within the CBO guidelines.
08-22-2014, 08:13 AM
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You misquoted me, maybe it is you that doesn't understand. You still haven't listed the rights that are being taken away. Remember, from discussions of long ago, flying FPV is a privilege, not a right.
08-22-2014, 08:17 AM
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So, out one side of your mouth the FAA isn't infringing on our freedoms but out of the other side of your mouth you say we need to politely ask that they consider freeing us up some??? I don't know, not ready to figure out your silly riddles any longer...
Last edited by littlecrankshaf; 08-22-2014 at 08:19 AM.