Another "Drone" incident in the news... , mostlikely non AMA member
#201
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Now cj, please stop trying to bring legal reality and precedent into the conversation. We all must take Sport_Pilots view that "visual line of sight" does not mean that you can actually see the aircraft, and that the definition used for communications is the only one no matter what Chevron U.S.A., Inc. v. Natural Resources Defense Council, Inc., 467 U.S. 837 (1984),set as precedent even though it is the most common sited case in U.S. Administrative law.
AMA has said they have spent over $1,000,000 (no ack that it is our dollars) to get this far in their adventuring that seems likely to come down to a final battle over this doctrine. Oh well, my share of abt $6.67 wouldn't come close to buying a six pack of decent brewski.
cj
#202
Your pedantic definitions do not change anything. What counts is the intent of congress. They used the term "Visual Line of Sight" the exact same way that the AMA used it in their FPV policy document (#550). The definition given is:
"Visual Line Of Sight (VLOS) is the distance at which the pilot is able to maintain visual contact with the aircraft and determine its orientation without enhancements other than corrective lenses."
Which simply means that the operator, or pilot, must be able to see the aircraft well enough to control it.
I am absolutely certain that this definition will stand up in court, if it ever gets to that, but it won't.
"Visual Line Of Sight (VLOS) is the distance at which the pilot is able to maintain visual contact with the aircraft and determine its orientation without enhancements other than corrective lenses."
Which simply means that the operator, or pilot, must be able to see the aircraft well enough to control it.
I am absolutely certain that this definition will stand up in court, if it ever gets to that, but it won't.
#203
Per 'Chevron,' it has been ruled that federal agencies do have the authority to interpret laws the legislature has enacted; it's what they do, interpret then enforce. Chevron is more than precedent, it is canon. Any judge would have his neck sticking out a long way if he overruled it. If the question ever goes to court (again), I hope you will be standing by to advise the judge based on your vast knowledge of the law.
What else?
What else?
#204
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#205
Seems like this has come just about to the start. I said that a visual line of sight is an imaginary line. I am an engineer and I know that the civil engineers and surveyors will use that term to show that the measurement was taken with old fasioned optical equipment as opposed to lasers and GPS, but it is still the imaganary line. In my original post I said others were trying to redifine this. I should have noted that it was OK to do so but would be limited to the document it was referenced in. OK it was shown that the AMA did just that. I do not believe they would have so redifined VLOS if they did not know its original technical meaning.
#206
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Seems like this has come just about to the start. I said that a visual line of sight is an imaginary line. I am an engineer and I know that the civil engineers and surveyors will use that term to show that the measurement was taken with old fasioned optical equipment as opposed to lasers and GPS, but it is still the imaganary line. In my original post I said others were trying to redifine this. I should have noted that it was OK to do so but would be limited to the document it was referenced in. OK it was shown that the AMA did just that. I do not believe they would have so redifined VLOS if they did not know its original technical meaning.
#207
Because the term means what the dictionary says it means, unless redifined in the regulation or law. It is not just a civil engineering term either, it is used in all sorts of engineering and science. The AMA had the good sense to redefine it in their rules 550, but the FAA is trying to redifine the term as put into law after the fact. Even to the point of getting their defintion into legal dictionaries. Fortunately it is so specific and dated late enough that AMA lawyers should be able to counter that.
#209
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Wow, didn't know that my little post would have some many peoples give their unbridled passionate opinions on this matter. But that is the reason for these forums, so since it's still not locked, looks like most people are keeping their arguements pretty reasonable.
#210
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This alone explains so so much!!!! You can always tell an engineer but you can't tell him much!!!!!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SDpONRrdVKk
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SDpONRrdVKk
#211
Sporty.......... I believe that the I.C.A.O (International Civil Aviation Organization) has legal standing as an authority that can define terms for aircraft.
They publish a "Remote Pilot Aircraft Systems Glossary"
http://www.uavdach.org/aktuell_e/1_U...V01_120812.pdf
Visual Line-of-Sight Operation p VLOS Operation - An operation in which the remote pilot or RPA observer maintains
direct unaided visual contact with the remotely-piloted aircraft (ICAO, according to
CAP722 – CAA, UK - Discrepancy with ICAO Circular 328).
Visual Line-of-Sight Operation p VLOS Operation - Operating within Visual Line of Sight means that the Remote Pilot is
able to maintain direct, unaided (other than corrective lenses) visual contact with the UA
which is sufficient to monitor its flight path in relation to other aircraft, persons, vessels,
vehicles and structures for the purpose of avoiding collisions. Within the UK, VLOS
operations are normally accepted out to a maximum distance of 500 m horizontally
and 400 ft vertically from the Remote Pilot. Operations at a greater distance from the
Remote Pilot may be permitted if an acceptable safety case is submitted. For example,
if the aircraft is large it may be justifiable that its flight path can be monitored visually at
a greater distance than 500 m. Conversely, for some small aircraft, operations out to a
distance of 500 m may be impractical.
They publish a "Remote Pilot Aircraft Systems Glossary"
http://www.uavdach.org/aktuell_e/1_U...V01_120812.pdf
Visual Line-of-Sight Operation p VLOS Operation - An operation in which the remote pilot or RPA observer maintains
direct unaided visual contact with the remotely-piloted aircraft (ICAO, according to
CAP722 – CAA, UK - Discrepancy with ICAO Circular 328).
Visual Line-of-Sight Operation p VLOS Operation - Operating within Visual Line of Sight means that the Remote Pilot is
able to maintain direct, unaided (other than corrective lenses) visual contact with the UA
which is sufficient to monitor its flight path in relation to other aircraft, persons, vessels,
vehicles and structures for the purpose of avoiding collisions. Within the UK, VLOS
operations are normally accepted out to a maximum distance of 500 m horizontally
and 400 ft vertically from the Remote Pilot. Operations at a greater distance from the
Remote Pilot may be permitted if an acceptable safety case is submitted. For example,
if the aircraft is large it may be justifiable that its flight path can be monitored visually at
a greater distance than 500 m. Conversely, for some small aircraft, operations out to a
distance of 500 m may be impractical.
Last edited by bradpaul; 09-09-2014 at 02:50 PM.
#212
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Because the term means what the dictionary says it means, unless redifined in the regulation or law. It is not just a civil engineering term either, it is used in all sorts of engineering and science. The AMA had the good sense to redefine it in their rules 550, but the FAA is trying to redifine the term as put into law after the fact. Even to the point of getting their defintion into legal dictionaries. Fortunately it is so specific and dated late enough that AMA lawyers should be able to counter that.
#213
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Original Intent
Original intent maintains that in interpreting a text, a court should determine what the authors of the text were trying to achieve, and to give effect to what they intended the statute to accomplish, the actual text of the legislation notwithstanding.[SUP][2][/SUP][SUP][3][/SUP] As in purposivism, tools such as legislative history are often used.
Original intent maintains that in interpreting a text, a court should determine what the authors of the text were trying to achieve, and to give effect to what they intended the statute to accomplish, the actual text of the legislation notwithstanding.[SUP][2][/SUP][SUP][3][/SUP] As in purposivism, tools such as legislative history are often used.
#214
A pilot must be able to see the aircraft well enough to control it. It does not matter what civil engineers choose it to mean.
Last edited by Sport_Pilot; 09-09-2014 at 04:55 PM.
#215
Sporty.......... I believe that the I.C.A.O (International Civil Aviation Organization) has legal standing as an authority that can define terms for aircraft.
They publish a "Remote Pilot Aircraft Systems Glossary"
http://www.uavdach.org/aktuell_e/1_U...V01_120812.pdf
Visual Line-of-Sight Operation p VLOS Operation - An operation in which the remote pilot or RPA observer maintains
direct unaided visual contact with the remotely-piloted aircraft (ICAO, according to
CAP722 – CAA, UK - Discrepancy with ICAO Circular 328).
Visual Line-of-Sight Operation p VLOS Operation - Operating within Visual Line of Sight means that the Remote Pilot is
able to maintain direct, unaided (other than corrective lenses) visual contact with the UA
which is sufficient to monitor its flight path in relation to other aircraft, persons, vessels,
vehicles and structures for the purpose of avoiding collisions. Within the UK, VLOS
operations are normally accepted out to a maximum distance of 500 m horizontally
and 400 ft vertically from the Remote Pilot. Operations at a greater distance from the
Remote Pilot may be permitted if an acceptable safety case is submitted. For example,
if the aircraft is large it may be justifiable that its flight path can be monitored visually at
a greater distance than 500 m. Conversely, for some small aircraft, operations out to a
distance of 500 m may be impractical.
They publish a "Remote Pilot Aircraft Systems Glossary"
http://www.uavdach.org/aktuell_e/1_U...V01_120812.pdf
Visual Line-of-Sight Operation p VLOS Operation - An operation in which the remote pilot or RPA observer maintains
direct unaided visual contact with the remotely-piloted aircraft (ICAO, according to
CAP722 – CAA, UK - Discrepancy with ICAO Circular 328).
Visual Line-of-Sight Operation p VLOS Operation - Operating within Visual Line of Sight means that the Remote Pilot is
able to maintain direct, unaided (other than corrective lenses) visual contact with the UA
which is sufficient to monitor its flight path in relation to other aircraft, persons, vessels,
vehicles and structures for the purpose of avoiding collisions. Within the UK, VLOS
operations are normally accepted out to a maximum distance of 500 m horizontally
and 400 ft vertically from the Remote Pilot. Operations at a greater distance from the
Remote Pilot may be permitted if an acceptable safety case is submitted. For example,
if the aircraft is large it may be justifiable that its flight path can be monitored visually at
a greater distance than 500 m. Conversely, for some small aircraft, operations out to a
distance of 500 m may be impractical.
Actually an international organization would have no standing in an American court.
#216
When Congress uses a term, it means exactly what they choose it to mean.
#217
ICAO > About ICAO
About ICAO
The International Civil Aviation Organization (ICAO) is a UN specialized agency, created in 1944 upon the signing of the Convention on International Civil Aviation (Chicago Convention).
ICAO works with the Convention’s 191 Member States and global aviation organizations to develop international Standards and Recommended Practices (SARPs) which States reference when developing their legally-enforceable national civil aviation regulations.
So the FAA using the I.C.A.O. definition of "visual line of sight" would in fact have greater precidence then some definition from other non aviation related sources.
Keep trying Sporty .................... tilt at those windmills.
#218
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#219
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cj
#220
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Wow great entertainment all, its amazing Sporty now will gladly speak for the AMA, FAA, congress, lawyers, you name it. Any subject matter he's the leading expert on how its going to be interpreted and implemented after all he's an engineer and he knows ask him he will tell you. Its just my personal opinion but I think he's in love with hearing himself talk. Hear that high pitched wind whistle there Sporty. No your not in the car I think your sucking wind again.
Seriously,attempting to predict how the end game is to be played is pure speculation. Like picking the correct lottery numbers.
Dennis
Seriously,attempting to predict how the end game is to be played is pure speculation. Like picking the correct lottery numbers.
Dennis
Last edited by Propworn; 09-10-2014 at 06:18 AM.
#221
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Wow great entertainment all, its amazing Sporty now will gladly speak for the AMA, FAA, congress, lawyers, you name it. Any subject matter he's the leading expert on how its going to be interpreted and implemented after all he's an engineer and he knows ask him he will tell you. Its just my personal opinion but I think he's in love with hearing himself talk. Hear that high pitched wind whistle there Sporty. No your not in the car I think your sucking wind again.
Seriously,attempting to predict how the end game is to be played is pure speculation. Like picking the correct lottery numbers.
Dennis
Seriously,attempting to predict how the end game is to be played is pure speculation. Like picking the correct lottery numbers.
Dennis
#222
They are clearly stating the distance the airplane is flying with the word "within". It does not state how the pilot see's the aircraft.
BTW I have not been going in circles, I have repeated that the issue is not the distanc but how the model is viewed. I started with and stand by my statement that VLOS by its dictionary meaning and adjective is an imaginary line. I have never waivered or change positions on this.
#223
Guess I need to practice my pilot skills........................ never tried to fly "within an imaginary line". I try to always keep within the club field boundaries , but I guess I have to practice this imaginary line stuff. Oh well how does the imaginary line fit into the pattern?
Last edited by bradpaul; 09-10-2014 at 11:41 AM.
#224
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Yes and the statement is " flown within visual line of sight of the person operating the aircraft"
They are clearly stating the distance the airplane is flying with the word "within". It does not state how the pilot see's the aircraft.
BTW I have not been going in circles, I have repeated that the issue is not the distanc but how the model is viewed. I started with and stand by my statement that VLOS by its dictionary meaning and adjective is an imaginary line. I have never waivered or change positions on this.
They are clearly stating the distance the airplane is flying with the word "within". It does not state how the pilot see's the aircraft.
BTW I have not been going in circles, I have repeated that the issue is not the distanc but how the model is viewed. I started with and stand by my statement that VLOS by its dictionary meaning and adjective is an imaginary line. I have never waivered or change positions on this.
LOL!
You just don't get it do you?
#225
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Guess I need to practice my pilot skills........................ never tried to fly "within an imaginary line". I try to always keep within the club field boundaries , but I guess I have to practice this imaginary line stuff. Oh well how does the imaginary line fit into the pattern?