cj_rumley

I wonder how much has been expended on lawyer's billings to challenge gummit agencies' interpretations, and add to the collection of affirmations that the Chevron decision is indeed the law. Might fund NASA for a couple of trips to the International Space Station.........

AMA has said they have spent over $1,000,000 (no ack that it is our dollars) to get this far in their adventuring that seems likely to come down to a final battle over this doctrine. Oh well, my share of abt $6.67 wouldn't come close to buying a six pack of decent brewski.

cj

Sport_Pilot

Distance is not the point, using a spotter is the point and that does not discount using a spotter. It redefines VLOS for the purpose of distance, but it is not law and says a spotter may be used.

Sport_Pilot

That does not preclude that regulations can be challanged and reversed, which they have.

cj_rumley

Indeed, and it is remotely possible some reader of this thread did not know that. I forget why it is relevant, though.

Sport_Pilot

Seems like this has come just about to the start. I said that a visual line of sight is an imaginary line. I am an engineer and I know that the civil engineers and surveyors will use that term to show that the measurement was taken with old fasioned optical equipment as opposed to lasers and GPS, but it is still the imaganary line. In my original post I said others were trying to redifine this. I should have noted that it was OK to do so but would be limited to the document it was referenced in. OK it was shown that the AMA did just that. I do not believe they would have so redifined VLOS if they did not know its original technical meaning.

JohnShe

Perhaps yu could 'splain why civil engineering has anything to do with model aviation operations. Nobody is redifining a civil engineering term. It is being defined for use with model avaialtion and just happens to become a synonym or perhaps a homonym. But except for the coincidence, there is no relationship between civil engineering and model aviation.

Sport_Pilot

Because the term means what the dictionary says it means, unless redifined in the regulation or law. It is not just a civil engineering term either, it is used in all sorts of engineering and science. The AMA had the good sense to redefine it in their rules 550, but the FAA is trying to redifine the term as put into law after the fact. Even to the point of getting their defintion into legal dictionaries. Fortunately it is so specific and dated late enough that AMA lawyers should be able to counter that.

porcia83

My Feedback: (8)

http://valleywag.gawker.com/american.../+laceydonohue

GSXR1000

My Feedback: (7)

Wow, didn't know that my little post would have some many peoples give their unbridled passionate opinions on this matter. But that is the reason for these forums, so since it's still not locked, looks like most people are keeping their arguements pretty reasonable.

Propworn

My Feedback: (3)

This alone explains so so much!!!! You can always tell an engineer but you can't tell him much!!!!!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SDpONRrdVKk

bradpaul

Sporty.......... I believe that the I.C.A.O (International Civil Aviation Organization) has legal standing as an authority that can define terms for aircraft.

They publish a "Remote Pilot Aircraft Systems Glossary"

http://www.uavdach.org/aktuell_e/1_U...V01_120812.pdf

Visual Line-of-Sight Operation p VLOS Operation - An operation in which the remote pilot or RPA observer maintains
direct unaided visual contact with the remotely-piloted aircraft (ICAO, according to
CAP722 – CAA, UK - Discrepancy with ICAO Circular 328).

Visual Line-of-Sight Operation p VLOS Operation - Operating within Visual Line of Sight means that the Remote Pilot is
able to maintain direct, unaided (other than corrective lenses) visual contact with the UA
which is sufficient to monitor its flight path in relation to other aircraft, persons, vessels,
vehicles and structures for the purpose of avoiding collisions. Within the UK, VLOS
operations are normally accepted out to a maximum distance of 500 m horizontally
and 400 ft vertically from the Remote Pilot. Operations at a greater distance from the
Remote Pilot may be permitted if an acceptable safety case is submitted. For example,
if the aircraft is large it may be justifiable that its flight path can be monitored visually at
a greater distance than 500 m. Conversely, for some small aircraft, operations out to a
distance of 500 m may be impractical.

JohnShe

Right, it is right out of Alice in Wonderland - When Congress uses a term, it means exactly what they choose it to mean, neither more nor less. Get over it, the term VLOS means. to congress, the AMA and the FAA what it means. A pilot must be able to see the aircraft well enough to control it. It does not matter what civil engineers choose it to mean.

Propworn

My Feedback: (3)

Original Intent

Original intent maintains that in interpreting a text, a court should determine what the authors of the text were trying to achieve, and to give effect to what they intended the statute to accomplish, the actual text of the legislation notwithstanding.[SUP][2][/SUP][SUP][3][/SUP] As in purposivism, tools such as legislative history are often used.

Sport_Pilot

Again that is not the issue. The issue is using a spotter who can see the aircraft when the pilot is looking at a video from the model.

Sport_Pilot

..

Actually an international organization would have no standing in an American court.

Sport_Pilot

Actually, Congress does not have the last say so. Many courts have decided against the original intent before.

bradpaul

Actually the I.C.A.O was founded in 1944 and the U.S. sits on the Tier 1 Council.

ICAO > About ICAO
About ICAO
The International Civil Aviation Organization (ICAO) is a UN specialized agency, created in 1944 upon the signing of the Convention on International Civil Aviation (Chicago Convention).

ICAO works with the Convention’s 191 Member States and global aviation organizations to develop international Standards and Recommended Practices (SARPs) which States reference when developing their legally-enforceable national civil aviation regulations.

So the FAA using the I.C.A.O. definition of "visual line of sight" would in fact have greater precidence then some definition from other non aviation related sources.

Keep trying Sporty .................... tilt at those windmills.

JohnShe

Now you are running around in circles. Congress is applying VLOS to the pilot, not the spotter.

cj_rumley

Sounds like my ex, always telling me what I was thinking despite what I said.....it's why she is ex. Now I know a precedent for her madness. Thanks for clearing that up, Sport.

cj

Propworn

My Feedback: (3)

Wow great entertainment all, its amazing Sporty now will gladly speak for the AMA, FAA, congress, lawyers, you name it. Any subject matter he's the leading expert on how its going to be interpreted and implemented after all he's an engineer and he knows ask him he will tell you. Its just my personal opinion but I think he's in love with hearing himself talk. Hear that high pitched wind whistle there Sporty. No your not in the car I think your sucking wind again.

Seriously,attempting to predict how the end game is to be played is pure speculation. Like picking the correct lottery numbers.

Dennis

JohnShe

In this case, we have better odds with the lottery numbers. LOL!

Sport_Pilot

Yes and the statement is " flown within visual line of sight of the person operating the aircraft"

They are clearly stating the distance the airplane is flying with the word "within". It does not state how the pilot see's the aircraft.

BTW I have not been going in circles, I have repeated that the issue is not the distanc but how the model is viewed. I started with and stand by my statement that VLOS by its dictionary meaning and adjective is an imaginary line. I have never waivered or change positions on this.

bradpaul

Guess I need to practice my pilot skills........................ never tried to fly "within an imaginary line". I try to always keep within the club field boundaries , but I guess I have to practice this imaginary line stuff. Oh well how does the imaginary line fit into the pattern?

JohnShe

LOL!

You just don't get it do you?

cj_rumley

Nah, you just need an imaginary airplane. Ask Sporty about it, he's pretty good with the imaginary.