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Fear mongering? AMA members with airman certificates?

Old 09-22-2014, 01:33 PM
  #26  
TimJ
 
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Originally Posted by littlecrankshaf
As much as I'd like to give a simple answer as you request, privilege based reality isn't so simple...Let's say John keeps speed dialing FAA about a modelers actions that he considers unsafe...and at some point the FAA contact feels he must investigate to shut him up... The agent may very well tell the suspect modeler to cease or face further actions...The modeler says hooey...and just continues...The FAA agent then may decide to take retaliatory action based purely on his personal perception of defiance of his order... Now, some case may be made that his "privilege(s)" should be revoked, it will then depend highly on the defense the accused can afford... Bottom line; in a privilege based society your privilege is highly dependent on what you can afford. That's where we are now...The Pirker (sp) case should have made that point abundantly clear for those that are really paying attention. Fortunately he got some pro bono service but most won't be so lucky.
This is not too far from being accurate. I've watched FAA officials at airshows and other places/events misuse their "power" due to either the attitude of the pilot or otherwise.
Old 09-22-2014, 01:56 PM
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I can see both sides of this.

I mean, if you've been given the privilege to fly privately, be it with a sport, recreational, or private licence, you should know well enough if you are violating airspace or posing a threat to full-scale aviation. It shows a clear disregard for full scale aviation safety, and like anything in that regard, can warrant an investigation and penalties, regardless if it involves a model aircraft or not.

We don't have a "God Given Right" to fly models, nor to fly full scale, and if we are showing that we don't care about its safety, why should we be allowed that privilege?

I doubt that this will be a huge deal, though - there's so much rhetoric going around now that until the FAA actually uses this tactic, I'd consider it nothing more than sensationalism...

Still, it's something that I doubt many of us would have considered on their own, so bringing it up with this community was a good choice.
Old 09-22-2014, 03:02 PM
  #28  
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Originally Posted by phlpsfrnk
Another reason I moved out of Taxachusetts to New Hampshire when I lived in New England. By that reasoning if I drive an RC car careless and recklessly on a public road I could lose my drivers license?

Frank
Hi Frank ,

For Sure !!! If I could import some of the smart politicians from NH to here I'd do it in a heartbeat ! Do you know that something like the last 4 or 5 Massachusetts Speakers of the House have left after convictions for one felony or another ? It's political Hell here but I'm stuck here pretty much forever . Anyway , back to your topic ,sure I'll give you a straight answer here ; Yes ! , I do believe it to be sensationalist on the AMA's part , but I also see the very real possibility of the future having such laws in place . I was blown outta my shoes when I read the newspaper article about the whole drunk boating/car license thing , could'nt believe it was true , and did further research with our RMV (Registry of Motor Vehicles) that proved it to be true . I only use this example to prove that when these guys (the govt) run unchecked , it's these kinds of "out there" laws that result .

PS , I have no Pilot's rating to loose , but I do have a long inactive A/P rating that they can have if'n they want it ......
Old 09-22-2014, 05:51 PM
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OK so let's see if I've got this right. If I'm drunk riding with a friend at the airport, and I put the gps in his face and he swerves and hits an airplane that takes off damaged and crashes into a boat, the national boating safety commision can petition the AMA to revoke My AMA turbine waiver? LMAO
Old 09-22-2014, 09:05 PM
  #30  
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Originally Posted by F-16 viperman
OK so let's see if I've got this right. If I'm drunk riding with a friend at the airport, and I put the gps in his face and he swerves and hits an airplane that takes off damaged and crashes into a boat, the national boating safety commision can petition the AMA to revoke My AMA turbine waiver? LMAO

Viper, I think you nailed it.

James
Old 09-23-2014, 02:09 AM
  #31  
phlpsfrnk
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Originally Posted by Top_Gunn
And yet, under FAR §61.15, your airman's certificate can be revoked for an offense involving driving a car under the influence of alcohol or a drug, even though (sport pilot certificate aside) you don't need an automobile driver's license to fly, and even if you did, §61.15 doesn't turn on whether the motor vehicle offense cost you your license.. But they probably can't ding you for driving an RC car badly. Yet.
I'm aware of that and that includes any kind of drug or alcohol offense, not just a drug or alcohol driving offense. My point was, did you read anything in the PL 112-95 SEC 336 or the FAA's interpretation that could be perceived as a threat to an individual’s airman certificate of any rating like the AMA is implying? I think it is very much a stretch using this type of tactic to garner comments to the FAA interprtation of PL 112-95 SEC 336.
Originally Posted by JohnShe
I find every one of AMA's seven points to be filled with misinterpretation and scare mongering.
I'm in total agreement with John on this.

Frank
Old 09-23-2014, 03:57 AM
  #32  
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I'm aware of that and that includes any kind of drug or alcohol offense, not just a drug or alcohol driving offense.
I know that. But the comments to which I was responding involved losing a license to operate one kind of vehicle because of offenses involving a different kind, so this seemed to be the relevant part. Sheesh.
Old 09-23-2014, 04:39 AM
  #33  
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Originally Posted by Top_Gunn
I know that. But the comments to which I was responding involved losing a license to operate one kind of vehicle because of offenses involving a different kind, so this seemed to be the relevant part. Sheesh.
Al,
Excuse me, you quoted init4fun and myself in this thread and I did not realize your comment was only specific to the text quoted. Do you have an opinion on the original topic of this thread?

Frank
Old 09-23-2014, 05:27 AM
  #34  
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Originally Posted by TimJ
This is not too far from being accurate. I've watched FAA officials at airshows and other places/events misuse their "power" due to either the attitude of the pilot or otherwise.
So there you are with your pilot certificate in your back pocket, flying your 100-150cc whatever (with a spotter), doing rollers 5 ft off the ground having a great time, when an FAA guy drives up and says you are acting with "reckless endangerment"...hmmm...
Old 09-23-2014, 05:31 AM
  #35  
r_adical
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Originally Posted by bradpaul
If a pilot that holds a full scale license, flying a RC model hit and damaged a full scale plane in flight, then yes, I think the FAA would pull his certificate.

And I would be in full agreement.
+1

I hold several Certificates with the FAA. I firmly believe they would take a look at any full size license or priviledge you may hold. And I agree with their right to do so.

Furthermore don't get a DUI in you car or boat with an FAA medical, if you do present policy makes it very difficult to renew said medical certificate

In other words respect the privilege and you won;t experience the FAA very much at all.
Old 09-23-2014, 05:33 AM
  #36  
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Question if i'm flying in my yard under 400 ft and a full scale flys below 400ft hits my plane and crashes do I lose my license? If so why?
Old 09-23-2014, 05:50 AM
  #37  
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Originally Posted by TimJ
This is not too far from being accurate. I've watched FAA officials at airshows and other places/events misuse their "power" due to either the attitude of the pilot or otherwise.
In police training they have courses on how to check becoming a "Fat Head", or the "Barney Fife" syndrome. Apparently the FAA does not do this as it seems to be deeply bound into their culture.

The attitude of many pilots only makes matters worse. I think some (not many) would like a police state run by the FAA.
Old 09-23-2014, 05:52 AM
  #38  
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We don't have a "God Given Right" to fly models, nor to fly full scale,
Actually we do, but not an unrestricete and unregulated right.
Old 09-23-2014, 05:55 AM
  #39  
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Originally Posted by r_adical
+1

I hold several Certificates with the FAA. I firmly believe they would take a look at any full size license or priviledge you may hold. And I agree with their right to do so.

Furthermore don't get a DUI in you car or boat with an FAA medical, if you do present policy makes it very difficult to renew said medical certificate

In other words respect the privilege and you won;t experience the FAA very much at all.
I agree, however did you read anything in the PL 112-95 SEC 336 or the FAA's interpretation that could be perceived as a threat to an individual’s airman certificate like the AMA is implying? Do you feel any of your certificates are threatened by the FAA for flying models?

Frank
Old 09-23-2014, 06:01 AM
  #40  
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Originally Posted by toolmaker7341
Question if i'm flying in my yard under 400 ft and a full scale flys below 400ft hits my plane and crashes do I lose my license? If so why?

You should not lose your license but the full scale pilot will likely lie and say he was above 500 feet and the FAA will believe him because he had an altimeter.

Let's not forget that every aerobatic contest breaks the 400 foot altitude limit as the box is about a thousand feet high. So we don't want limits outside of airports.
Old 09-23-2014, 06:35 AM
  #41  
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I have not read the document IN FULL nor do I have a full-scale license but I have been following this issue for the larger implications. First, this thread so far is full of misconceptions, miscommunications and downright intentional diversion from one ***** in particular. What I have read from of the document, the AMA and others is that any serious RC incident MAY affect a person's full-scale license. Yes it's fear mongering, but it may be rightly so based on the actions of this current administration. It is the same type of fear mongering that gun enthusiasts have when saying that gun registration leads to gun confiscation - except that is a much more valid point.
Remember what started this whole mess. The commercial drone manufacturers were ticked that RC drones where taking money out of their pockets without any sort of licensing or flight operations control that they were subjected to. They went on a rampage to get their requirements cut back. The FAA was between a rock and a hard place and Congress certainly didn't help, nor did AMA. To cut back commercial requirements would mean creating a whole new class of commercial drone with the attendant regulations, studies, impact statements and documentation. The use of hobby drones in commercial endeavors was already illegal but totally unenforceable since even the AMA backed off from pressure on the manufacturers and sellers and even decided to go along with it. FAA as left with only one option, to treat RC as a subset of full-scale operations. And that meant that a severe violation in that subset must spill over into the overarching requirements.
Thank you lilcrankshaft.
Old 09-23-2014, 07:22 AM
  #42  
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The FAA was between a rock and a hard place and Congress certainly didn't help, nor did AMA. To cut back commercial requirements would mean creating a whole new class of commercial drone with the attendant regulations, studies, impact statements and documentation. The use of hobby drones in commercial endeavors was already illegal but totally unenforceable since even the AMA backed off from pressure on the manufacturers and sellers and even decided to go along with it.
The hobby drones were never illegal and still not illegal, even when the FAA claimed they were. And many flying under the AMA rules will not be bound to FAA regulations as they will be model airplanes. And 112-95 did creat a new class of commercial drone. I don't recall the name of the class but basically those weighing less than 4 and a half pounds flying under 500 feet. And they may be regulated by some agency other than the FAA.
Old 09-23-2014, 07:54 AM
  #43  
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Originally Posted by rgburrill
I have not read the document IN FULL nor do I have a full-scale license but I have been following this issue for the larger implications. First, this thread so far is full of misconceptions, miscommunications and downright intentional diversion from one ***** in particular. What I have read from of the document, the AMA and others is that any serious RC incident MAY affect a person's full-scale license. Yes it's fear mongering, but it may be rightly so based on the actions of this current administration. It is the same type of fear mongering that gun enthusiasts have when saying that gun registration leads to gun confiscation - except that is a much more valid point.
Remember what started this whole mess. The commercial drone manufacturers were ticked that RC drones where taking money out of their pockets without any sort of licensing or flight operations control that they were subjected to. They went on a rampage to get their requirements cut back. The FAA was between a rock and a hard place and Congress certainly didn't help, nor did AMA. To cut back commercial requirements would mean creating a whole new class of commercial drone with the attendant regulations, studies, impact statements and documentation. The use of hobby drones in commercial endeavors was already illegal but totally unenforceable since even the AMA backed off from pressure on the manufacturers and sellers and even decided to go along with it. FAA as left with only one option, to treat RC as a subset of full-scale operations. And that meant that a severe violation in that subset must spill over into the overarching requirements.
Thank you lilcrankshaft.
+1

Of course the FAA can pull your certificate if your use of a model endangers full-scale flying. They've had that power in the past, they should have that power, and nothing has taken it away. That by itself isn't the danger: The danger is that the FAA's notions of "endangering the airspace" may expand to include normal modeling activities. Their apparent belief that a statute (the 5-mile thing) about notifying airport operators and sometimes ATC means getting permission to fly from airport operators and sometimes ATC shows that this is potentially a serious threat. Perhaps the AMA has exaggerated some of the dangers, but even if so, the dangers are there. Simply saying "no danger" or arguing that there can't be a danger because they haven't yet taken my old certificates (!) isn't going to change my mind or, I suspect, anyone else's.
Old 09-23-2014, 08:45 AM
  #44  
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Originally Posted by Sport_Pilot
And 112-95 did creat a new class of commercial drone. I don't recall the name of the class but basically those weighing less than 4 and a half pounds flying under 500 feet. And they may be regulated by some agency other than the FAA.
It's PL 112-95 SEC 334 Public Unmanned Aircraft Systems subpart (c) Agreements With Government Agencies.-
(C) allow a government public safety agency to operate unmanned aircraft weighing 4.4 pounds or less, if operated—
(i) within the line of sight of the operator;
(ii) less than 400 feet above the ground;
(iii) during daylight conditions;
(iv) within Class G airspace; and
(v) outside of 5 statute miles from any airport, heliport, seaplane base, spaceport, or other location with aviation activities.

but I'm not sure of the "commercial" classification.
Originally Posted by Sport_Pilot
The hobby drones were never illegal and still not illegal, even when the FAA claimed they were. And many flying under the AMA rules will not be bound to FAA regulations as they will be model airplanes.
True, they are not illegal however where and how they are flown is the issue.

Frank
Old 09-23-2014, 09:37 AM
  #45  
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Question: Where did this "5" mile radius all of a sudden come into play? It used to be 3 miles if I remember correctly.....
Old 09-23-2014, 10:07 AM
  #46  
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Originally Posted by phlpsfrnk
I agree, however did you read anything in the PL 112-95 SEC 336 or the FAA's interpretation that could be perceived as a threat to an individual’s airman certificate like the AMA is implying? Do you feel any of your certificates are threatened by the FAA for flying models?

Frank
No, however All the federal alphabet soup organizations can make life difficult so in MY opinion the AMA isn't making a big stretch in their assertions. Remember, the FAA can act first and justify their actions later. Happens all the time
Old 09-23-2014, 10:14 AM
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Originally Posted by tailskid
Question: Where did this "5" mile radius all of a sudden come into play? It used to be 3 miles if I remember correctly.....
AC 91-57 specified 3 miles "Do not fly model aircraft higher than 400 feet above the surface. When flying aircraft within 3 miles of an airport, notify the airport operator, or when an air traffic facility is located at the airport, notify the control tower, or flight service station." and the AMA safety code did the infamous period comma switch which changed the meaning of what was two sentences. Over the past several years of UAV/UAS/sUAS/Model discussions it was expanded to 5 miles and finally written into PL 112-95 SEC 336 which was signed Feb 14 2012.

Frank
Old 09-23-2014, 11:03 AM
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Crap!
Old 09-23-2014, 11:45 AM
  #49  
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Originally Posted by toolmaker7341
Question if i'm flying in my yard under 400 ft and a full scale flys below 400ft hits my plane and crashes do I lose my license? If so why?
Is your yard right at he end of an airport runway? That is one way that your scenario could happen. I suppose there are other scenarios where a full size plane might have to fly that low. But, it might or might not be in violation of FAA regulations for full scale aircraft. If you had a spotter on hand, you might have avoided the collision. In any event, you are talking about a long complicated investigation, in which your need for legal advice would likely impoverish you, So don't worry about your license.
Old 09-23-2014, 11:51 AM
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Originally Posted by rrembert
So there you are with your pilot certificate in your back pocket, flying your 100-150cc whatever (with a spotter), doing rollers 5 ft off the ground having a great time, when an FAA guy drives up and says you are acting with "reckless endangerment"...hmmm...
Really? That sounds more paranoid that reasonable. Usually the FAA would not get involved until after a complaint is filed. The only question that the FAA guy could ask is, "Are you endangering the NAS in some way?" If you aren't, then you have no problem or concern.

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