cubcrafter60

Hi all,

I was wondering if any one knows of a source for statistics on fires caused by model aircraft? More specifically what type of model (gas, glow, or electric) caused the incident.

At my last club meeting an individual (not a club officer) proposed that due to the high fire danger because of the drought here in northern California we should ban GAS powered models specifically (not glow or electric) during high fire danger months and moved that we discuss it at the next meeting. I don't currently own a gas powered model but I find this a bit disturbing and would like to attend the next meeting armed with some facts to debate this proposal.

I'm going to contact the AMA to see if they have a database but thought I'd ask here first to see if anyone knew of any sources of information.

I'd appreciate any input, thanks in advance!

Robin

Hossfly

I have never seen in 65+ years of active flying, CL, FF, and RC any fire started by any wet-fuel model airplane. I started with gas power before the glow-plug.

I now fly RC, ( some gas burners) some CL and am setting up some large gas burners, like 100" wing-span machines,

What I HAVE seen several times is a set of Lithium Polymer batteries in both single cells and multi-cells burst into flame. One was a large pattern model and it had a bad landing, so the pilot went out to retrieve it and as he headed back to the pits, it simply burst into flames. Not my cup of tea!!
For most models I find that Nickel Metal Hydrate (NiMH) do a fine job for most RC models. Very safe and do not have to be charged each few hours before use if charged a day or so before use. There are those small 4 cell chargers that recharge cells quickly. MAKES LIFE EASIER.

Good Luck.

beepee

Robin,

I have not flown near as long as Horrace, but my experience is the same. If I may offer anecdotally, I witnessed a large scale aerobat with a gas twin crash land hard enough into a paved runway to snap the carb off the bottom of the engine and skid several yards down the runway. Gas around, but no fire. If gas fueled planes were a real risk that would have been a time to see flames. On the other hand, YouTube is full of electric and turbine examples of fires.

Fire risk is real, especially in drought stricken areas. If your club wants to reduce that risk, address to highest probability. If your club member has an alternative agenda, squash it with facts!

Good luck,

Bedford

cubcrafter60

Thanks Horrace,

I submitted a inquiry to the AMA on the website, hopefully I'll get some data to support a rational outcome! I don't currently have a gas powered model (I fly glow & electric) and I understand that we're entering a critical fire danger period in our area BUT I don't understand how banning gas powered models is going to make that threat go away when glow and electric models are still flying. The majority of fire related model aircraft incidents I've heard about have involved electrics but I'd just like to have some data to to support that before the next meeting. I'm just trying to prevent one segment of our club from being unjustly penalized.

Thanks for the response!

Robin

cubcrafter60

Bedford,

Thank you! That's exactly what I'm attempting to do (squash it with facts). I have to add that for some reason (I believe in the agreement with the property owner) our club already has a no turbine rule! The singling out of gas models bothered me and for some reason I'm feeling a need to 'step up' on this one!

Thanks for your input!

Robin

Hossfly

Hello Robin:
In another forum, I have been chastised playing down Lithium-Polymer batteries. OK folks I do not use LiPos and have no thoughts of doing so. At 78 years old, I reserve the right to choose !!!
My error was in thinking of batteries for my model's control systems, only a couple with 100" wingspan and for power they will always be gas or nitro machines.

Therefore those BIG models that are electric powered, have fun with the LiPos but do be careful. Only thing I know for sure about LiPos is that they run on smoke, because when I see one letting the smoke out, I know it is out-of-play!

Added: Hello there Mr. Bedford. Long time no see! Are you returning any time soon?

phlpsfrnk

Robin,
From personal experience in my C/L days while attempting to start a profile stunter experienced a nitro fire. Nitro methane burns with little visible flame so the only indication of the fire was the blistering dope finish and the spreading ring of burnt dry grass. Years later a friend was putting the third flight on a WW1 biplane with a cowled .60 size engine converted to ignition gas and he had an in-flight engine (cowl) fire. Crashed on short final and fortunately we had an extinguisher handy. As for electrics all you need do is google LIPO fires and you will find many examples. Bottom line is all forms of power have their risks. Be prepared with fire extinguishers and/or buckets of sand and post the local fire department phone number at the field.

Frank

tailskid

My Feedback: (34)

The only fires I've heard of come from the turbine crew....saw one start on fire when starting and saw pictures of one turbine 'pile' of charred CF/fiberglass.....fire danger of our models....I'm more worried about a fire when charging as opposed to flying!

bradpaul

I have seen two fires at the club field, the first was from a turbine helicopter crash and the second was when a pilot threw down a cigarette he was smoking while he was flying his plane.

What is it about our hobby that attracts anal retentive types that try to find ways to ban what they don't have the skills to fly?

binns aero

dont' know why it happened was next to a pilot filling his o49 powered glider with electric pump and high nitro fuel ,next thing I know hes' jumpin and beatin his legs (polyester pants to boot) no fire extinguisher smothered it with my jacket, glider looked like a cig ash like his legs. Fly to survive,safety equipment is a must but accedents happen all the time,large and small . Always be ready and prepared.

OliverJacob

My Feedback: (12)

The person who suggested that gasoline engine are more dangerous then glow or LiPo powered planes should bring proof for the statement. Otherwise he does not have a leg to stand on.
The operating temperature of a gasoline engine is sure higher then others, but that alone does not increase the risk of a fire.

cubcrafter60

Thanks for all the input guys, I'm hoping that cooler heads will prevail at the next meeting! I don't have my own agenda but I have to admit that I've considered purchasing a gas burning VVRC40 for an old Hangar 9 100" Super Cub but since I already have a Saito 150 available to use I'll probably be going with it. Also our club safety officer is a retired CalFire Fire Chief and believe me our field is equipped to handle a post crash fire! I would be shocked (and disappointed) if this motion even makes it past the next meeting but I plan to go armed with the facts to prevent a ban against a single power system!

Thanks again!

Robin

Jim Branaum

My Feedback: (3)

Lipos have caused grass fires, as have turbine crashes where the accelerant is carried to the scene of the hot section broken open. I have not seen a gas fire or a nitro fire, but it is possible.

cubcrafter60

Good point Oliver! He should have the burden of proof - and just in case he comes up with something, it would be nice to have data from our governing body to counter it with! I just submitted a request for information to the AMA yesterday and hope to hear something back this week, hopefully they have a database of model related incidents, we'll see!

Thank you,

Robin

[email protected]

My Feedback: (1)

ive seen a lot of jets on fire and some battery planes and not any gas planes all clubs have a lot of silly ideas

Chris P. Bacon

My Feedback: (4)

It's my understanding the AMA doesn't collect these type of statistics, however, it doesn't hurt to ask. However, I would also counter with what other clubs/events in the immediate area have the same restrictions and if so, why?

RCFlyerDan

My Feedback: (54)

In Florida, we are going into the "Fire Season" here through the winter. Some fields ban turbines, but not gas. I belong to four Clubs here. Two have bought "crash carts", one simply bans them. But, in truth, the Clubs are finding that the Electrics with the Lipos are the ones starting the fires. Even Turbines don't always go into a fire, especially if they aren't using propane to start. The two clubs with the crash carts have found that electric cause more fires then the turbines. Gas engines have never been considered ban at any of the 4 clubs. I fly turbine and gas, but not electric.

cessnaflyer54

My Feedback: (68)

Why is a non member of your club trying to ban gas planes in the first place. Sounds like someone trying
to start a riff in your club and then not show up for the next meeting, or has no intention of even joining your
club. Who is this guy!

rgburrill

Under the right circumstances everything burns. The solution is not to ban everything but to BUY A FIRE EXTINGUISHER.

cubcrafter60

Thanks for all the input guys!

Ace Dude,

I'm hoping your wrong, you would think that this kind of info would be pertinent to an organization that promotes model aviation safety and insurance. I'll post the response from them when I get it.

RCFlyerDan,

It's funny how different clubs can be so diverse in how they approach the same problem. I'd be interested to learn more about your club's 'crash cart' also (what they're equipped with or maybe a photo)?

cessnaflyer54,

It was a newer member that brought this up (not that how long he has been should matter), I just mentioned that it was not suggested by a club officer.

Thanks again all, got to get ready for work!

Robin

BarracudaHockey

My Feedback: (11)

I've seen a half dozen fires over the years.
3 were LiPo impact crashes
2 were charging mishaps with a Lipo
1 was a turbine crash

I go to a LOT of events and I used to be a fireman. Post crash LiPo fires are the biggest fire danger in RC. Followed, I'm sure in a much lower percentage, all other causes.

I've never seen a fire caused by a fuel powered plane. Not that it can't happen, I'm sure it "can" but I wouldn't, by any means, call it likely. A hot muffler or hot cylinder head causing dry brush to catch fire would be just as likely with nitro or gas.

As for AMA stats, they probably only have hard data from issues of property damage or injury, while that may be somewhat helpful, i dont think it will tell the whole picture. Call your district VP as a starting point.

RCFlyerDan

My Feedback: (54)

I am sorry, but I do not have any Crash Cart pictures. I was in Cape Coral this past Sunday, and not sure when I will go again. The other is in Ocala. Both Clubs are 110 miles one way to drive to, so I don't get to go often. Ocala has a Gator 4 wheel drive that has a pick up bed in back of the two seats, that is chained under a pad lock that is the same as the entry gate combo. This way everyone has access, if needed. It has 4 silver 2 1/2 gallon charged water fire extinguishers for the grass part of the fire, 2 CO2 fire extinguishers and maybe one ABC extinguisher. There are also rakes and shovels mounted on it.
Cape Coral has more money, so they spent more on their out fit. Again, they have a Pick up type of 4 wheel drive Gator and a trailer. The Gator has the shovels, rakes, and a rake handle that has about a 2 foot square flat piece of leather or some material. This is used to beat the fire out on a small grass fire. Don't laugh, it works. Contact your local fire department about it. Then, on the trailer, it has a 2-12V batteries that is always on charge in the storage shed. There are two, incase of a failure. The batteries operate a water pump with hoses and nozzles, that pump water from about a 35-50 gallon water tank on the trailer. I think there are also extra CO2 fire extinguishers on the Gator.
Like planes, the only limit is money, imagination, and a little talent. Hope that helps. Dan

cubcrafter60

BarracudaHockey,

Thanks! I'll give them a few days to respond to the info request I've already sent. If that bombs out I'll contact the district VP and see what he says! I'm getting lots of good input and info from this thread!

Dan,

Your description requires no photo, I have a clear mental picture of what your describing. Thank's!


Yesterday while doing a Yahoo search for 'fires started by model airplanes' I ran across this -

10-12-13 VAN NUYS — An acre-and-a-half fire that burned a model aircraft field at the Sepulveda Basin was extinguished this afternoon, authorities said. Two helicopters and 47 firefighters were dispatched to 6000 Woodley Ave. at 4:34 p.m. with knockdown being declared about an hour later, according to spokesman Brian Humphrey of the Los Angeles Fire Department. No injuries were reported and a cause is under investigation, Humphrey said.


Then I read the one comment - I play golf occasionally at the Balboa Encino golf courses and these dweebs with the model motorized planes incessantly buzz over the area near the course. I have been waiting and expecting something like this to happen.. New Rule: if you want to be a pilot then get certified and fly a real plane. Stop buzzing about with the toy planes.... UNBELIEVABLE! I came up with a pretty lively response but the registration process to post was a bit too invasive, besides, Mama told me, if you don't have anything good to say...

Robin

beepee

Hoss,

Sorry been off-line a couple of days. Man, a lot of conversation since your message. As a matter of fact, I am returning a week from Sunday, assuming the mountain of paperwork is done in time. Asap I will be heading out to Hooks to see how my birds have fared why stored for 6 years in the attic of a hanger. I have no delusions.

It will be great to get back and back to flying!

Cheers,
Bedford

corch

My Feedback: (1)

Ban gas powered weed wackers and lawn mowers too. Make sure everyone parks their vehicle outside of the field limits because those exhaust systems get hot and can easily start a fire. The only rc related fires I have seen have been intentionally set after a models very last flight, but only after all electronics, engines, motors, batteries, fuel cell, etc have been removed. A Greek funeral if you will.

It should be on whoever wants to "ban" something to provide the data. But just based on the small group of fliers commenting on here, it seems gas/glow is about the only thing we haven't seen catch on fire. Also another observation is that it seems it's lipo fires, either due to crash or human caused battery abuse. Crashes happen. Nothing anyone can do about it. Nature of the hobby. If it's not pilot error, mechanical error it will probably be a mid air. They all have an expiration date and never fall in love with a model. Very smart and knowledgeable people do make mistakes. That's usually how they get so knowledgeable and smart, they learned from it.

Unfortunately, in any group of people, you cannot eliminate stupid. You can only hope to inform and educate. Good luck