JohnShe

I am am unaware of any competition that awards cash. But, an award is not payment for effort or skill, it is a one time only prize. There is no mention of this issue in the FAA Interpretation of section 336.


This is a problem, the current unofficial version of the interpretation seems to place this activity as an unallowed commercial activity even though it is being performed in support of recreational model aviation. I hope that the FAA has read my comment on this issue and recognized their error.


I can't imagine anyone dumb enough to pay for flight lessons when, for the small price of membership, he can receive all he help he needs for free, as often as he needs it. I think that this should require a license though.

Sport_Pilot

From the interpretation.

So flight testing is furtherance of a business and incidental to the business. Getting an award for winning a contest, especially if done professionally would make it illegal, as wll as getting money and products from sponsors!

bradpaul

Can't wait for April 25th so doodydoggy will need to find a different subject to beat to death.

And yes I replied and not just by using the template.

JohnShe

You are quite correct, there is a difference between amateur and professional competition. Tell me, how do you become a professional model airplane competitor? Is it like professional golf? Do they have a cable channel for it?

bradpaul

For years there has been the rumor that certain pilots were paid appearance money from manufactures to appear at the big competitions.

FLAPHappy

My Feedback: (209)

We these Pilots actually paid a dollar amount or were they just sponsered by companies to advertise their planes or equipment?

JohnShe

Rumors? Is there evidence to support these claims? I don't have much respect for rumors.

JohnShe

Interesting question. How would we know that some pilots were actually advertising for a certain supplier? Do they wear company t-shirts and hats? Do they have company stickers on their planes? Do they always win the contests? Do they autograph the products that are sold at the company's booth? Do their cars or trailers have company logos on them?

If this is being done with the intent of supporting recreational model aviation, it is arguably within the intent of Section 336. Albeit a little sleazy.

bradpaul

I bet you believed that Lance Armstrong did not dope right up to his confession.

JohnShe

Didn't know, didn't care.

ira d

The FAA is way wrong on this one, They need to be concerned about safety not if a dime changed hands between modelers. I agree with Sport people just will do what they always
have or cease competition and advertising / promotional services.

Silent-AV8R

Since the FAA's interpretation of Section 336 seems to be a topic of discussion, I think this is worth looking at:



Bottom line is that the FAA's "interpretation" is nothing more than what they think the law means and in and of itself is not a law or regulation. The courts have also held that when looking at laws that the idea of "plain language" needs to be used. In other words, don't go looking for hidden meanings, what it says is what it means.

FLAPHappy

My Feedback: (209)

http://www.modelaircraft.org/aboutam...esponse.aspx#3
Silent, please read this, I am not sure what it means exactly and the AMA avoids it??

I think the FAA will outrule the AMA on this subject, could be wrong?

cj_rumley

AMA's lawyer made a different point in " Since the FAA remains free to interpret aviation statutes and regulations as it sees fit, and since courts must defer to those interpretations unless they are determined to be arbitrary and capricious, the decision appears to have little practical effect on curbing the FAA's use of interpretations to modify existing law."
I understand that to say FAA's interpretation is the law de facto, until challenged in court and a decision is reached that the interpretations are arbitrary and capricious. IOW an umpteenth reiteration of the Chevron decision, and perhaps advice to his AMA client to "live with it" as any challange will most probably prove fruitless.

Silent-AV8R

Sadly, it seems to be true that one of these case will likely need to end up in court to be settled. On the other hand, I will be surprised if the FAA pursues anything less than a absolute case of endangering a manned aircraft.

BTW - I believe that Brendan Schulman is the AMA's attorney. Peter Sachs is representing another group in a similar suit against the FAA.

http://www.kramerlevin.com/files/upl...A_Petition.pdf

Peter Sachs is a plaintiff with Brendan as attorney of record:

http://www.kramerlevin.com/files/upl...caPetition.pdf

Sport_Pilot

It is not a rumor it is a fact, and not illegal AFAIK. Probably the largest sponsor right now is "Team Futaba" Here is a link of many photo's of competitors they sponsored.

https://www.bing.com/images/search?q...taba&FORM=IGRE

Sport_Pilot

I would hope that the FAA changes its mind, after all it will be a large expense to enforce. Or at least that the courts overrule the FAA.

Sport_Pilot

..

This is true for regulations, but not so much as to law. However, I believe a case could be made that this is arbitrary and capricious.

HoundDog

My Feedback: (49)

Thanks BP But there are many that have not it's just a reminder thanks for UR effort on behalf of our Hobby/Sport of flying TOY airplanes.

HoundDog

My Feedback: (49)

There's a flight school in Shanwo Wisconsin and I thought it was stupid but after seing the results it does make a differance. Especially over most club teaching and deffinatly self taught ... Look at UR own club (IF u actually fly at a Chartered club) and there in every club smoe people that are down right DANGERIOUS but for some reason the club put's up with them and their antics cause they are part of the IN CROWD.

HoundDog

My Feedback: (49)

[QUOTE=JohnShe;12020562]I am am unaware of any competition that awards cash. But, an award is not payment for effort or skill, it is a one time only prize. There is no mention of this issue in the FAA Interpretation of section 336.

Our club in Mesa awards Money form the entry fee for 1st 2nd & 3rd place in our monthly Pylon Races as do other clubs in the PHX Valley.

Silent-AV8R

AMA has field a lawsuit against the FAA over their interpretation. I suspect that in the end the FAA will soften some of their interpretation to make it clear that contest winnings, sponsorship, etc. do not make an otherwise hobby flight commercial in nature.

Silent-AV8R

Apparently you have never heard of the Tournament of Champions (TOC), Tucson Aerobatic Shootout, or the Top Gun Scale contest, to name just a few.

littlecrankshaf

My Feedback: (58)

Good points. Maybe just me, but I can never understand the mentality that would want to short circuit any enterprise based on whether or not it was a money making venture... I can understand certain standards to insure consumer or even spectator safety but to prevent income based purely on license is against everything I understand America to be.

Sport_Pilot

IMO i think AMA may have Constitutional grounds for this. The FAA was given the skies to rule because of interstate commerce from the commerce clause in the Constitution. Full scale aircraft and even large UAV's are capable of interstate commerce, model airplane contests and manufacture flight testing is clearly not interstate commerce. That is they do not cross state lines to accomplish their commerce.