Another Drone Pilot does it Again
04-29-2015, 10:33 AM
#1176
Why should an airliner have to avoid a drone?
From FAA Part 91.
(b) General. When weather conditions permit, regardless of whether an operation is conducted under instrument flight rules or visual flight rules, vigilance shall be maintained by each person operating an aircraft so as to see and avoid other aircraft. When a rule of this section gives another aircraft the right-of-way, the pilot shall give way to that aircraft and may not pass over, under, or ahead of it unless well clear.
....(d) Converging. When aircraft of the same category are converging at approximately the same altitude (except head-on, or nearly so), the aircraft to the other's right has the right-of-way. If the aircraft are of different categories—
(Then there is a list of aircraft that have right of way, sUAV and model airplanes are not on the list.).
(e) Approaching head-on. When aircraft are approaching each other head-on, or nearly so, each pilot of each aircraft shall alter course to the right.
....(f) Overtaking. Each aircraft that is being overtaken has the right-of-way and each pilot of an overtaking aircraft shall alter course to the right to pass well clear.
So do you see where the airliner has right of way here? And the line that says that the overtaken aircraft has right of way regardless?
....(d) Converging. When aircraft of the same category are converging at approximately the same altitude (except head-on, or nearly so), the aircraft to the other's right has the right-of-way. If the aircraft are of different categories—
(Then there is a list of aircraft that have right of way, sUAV and model airplanes are not on the list.).
(e) Approaching head-on. When aircraft are approaching each other head-on, or nearly so, each pilot of each aircraft shall alter course to the right.
....(f) Overtaking. Each aircraft that is being overtaken has the right-of-way and each pilot of an overtaking aircraft shall alter course to the right to pass well clear.
So do you see where the airliner has right of way here? And the line that says that the overtaken aircraft has right of way regardless?
04-29-2015, 10:41 AM
#1177
Okay, someone tell me when a jetliner did a loop or roll, other than Tex Johnson over Lake Washington doing two positive "G" rolls with a Boeing 720 back in the late 50s
04-29-2015, 12:15 PM
#1178
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Is this even something up for debate?
I have a hard enough time manoeuvring around birds at 105 knots. There's simply no way a hulking airliner can do the same at 200. Passing the responsibility to the full-scale pilot not only shows a complete lack of concern for the lives and safety of others, but just ignorance to basic physics.
I have a hard enough time manoeuvring around birds at 105 knots. There's simply no way a hulking airliner can do the same at 200. Passing the responsibility to the full-scale pilot not only shows a complete lack of concern for the lives and safety of others, but just ignorance to basic physics.
04-29-2015, 01:44 PM
#1179
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I have read it, and in item "D" it states " uSAV and "Model aircraft are not on that list". So where is the justification there? I still stand behind my origional statement. Model aircraft, which includes uSAVS,Drones , anything that is remote controlled by a ground operator, will not fly within 3 miles of an Airport or above 400Ft.AGL.
It;s in Black and White Print.
I just can't see your train of thought that uSAV's or any model aircraft be in a flight path of a full scale aircraft whether taking off or landing.. In case of a full scale aircraft,they have the right of way period. No matter how you spin it.
Full scale pilots will not sacrafice human lives for a remote controlled aircraft, drone or not. Which by the way all remote aircraft are Drones, not manned aircraft.
The see and avoid conflict is not an option when it involves remote controlled aircraft to full scale aircraft. By the time they see it,"full scale" like I stated before, it's over, they already hit it. Why in the world can't people see this??? We can debate this to death, but in the long run, if Idiots keep flying their toy Quads near Airports, endangering full scale aircraft, look out. The hammer's going to fall when it results in a fatality.
It;s in Black and White Print.
I just can't see your train of thought that uSAV's or any model aircraft be in a flight path of a full scale aircraft whether taking off or landing.. In case of a full scale aircraft,they have the right of way period. No matter how you spin it.
Full scale pilots will not sacrafice human lives for a remote controlled aircraft, drone or not. Which by the way all remote aircraft are Drones, not manned aircraft.
The see and avoid conflict is not an option when it involves remote controlled aircraft to full scale aircraft. By the time they see it,"full scale" like I stated before, it's over, they already hit it. Why in the world can't people see this??? We can debate this to death, but in the long run, if Idiots keep flying their toy Quads near Airports, endangering full scale aircraft, look out. The hammer's going to fall when it results in a fatality.
04-29-2015, 02:12 PM
#1180
Is this even something up for debate?
I have a hard enough time manoeuvring around birds at 105 knots. There's simply no way a hulking airliner can do the same at 200. Passing the responsibility to the full-scale pilot not only shows a complete lack of concern for the lives and safety of others, but just ignorance to basic physics.
I have a hard enough time manoeuvring around birds at 105 knots. There's simply no way a hulking airliner can do the same at 200. Passing the responsibility to the full-scale pilot not only shows a complete lack of concern for the lives and safety of others, but just ignorance to basic physics.
No one is passing the responsibility to the full scale, The point being made is that both the model and the full scale have a responsibility to avoid a collision if possible. It has been
said many times that the full scale will likely have a harder time seeing and avoiding the model than the other way around. Also it not a matter of who has the right of way even if you
have the right of way you still have a responsibility to avoid a hazardous situation if possible.
04-29-2015, 03:24 PM
#1181
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I do not see that as an excuse to avoid a mid air. If you miss by one millimeter you miss. Weight has nothing to do with this, as the planes wing areas match the weight. However size does, as obviously it cannot turn a radius smaller than itself. Airliners are much more maneurvable than you apparently think. Loops and rolls have been done with many models. Besides per Part 91 they are required to avoid other aircraft. Sitting in your captains seat watching is not avoiding.
Your "see and avoid" concept is correct. See the AMA Manual, read what's in it, avoid getting sued for everything you have + some.
Avoid all full scale aircraft.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lksDISvCmNI
04-29-2015, 04:05 PM
#1182
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Flap, looks like the same footage of the crash where the large armored personnel carrier was loaded wrong, or broke loose. Tail heavy is no way to fly.
Maybe I'm wrong and this is a different plane crash and you're right, planes just can't turn in the air.
Maybe I'm wrong and this is a different plane crash and you're right, planes just can't turn in the air.
04-29-2015, 05:29 PM
#1183
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sjFIB1L3BPU
04-29-2015, 09:11 PM
#1184
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The see and avoid conflict is not an option when it involves remote controlled aircraft to full scale aircraft. By the time they see it,"full scale" like I stated before, it's over, they already hit it. Why in the world can't people see this??? We can debate this to death, but in the long run, if Idiots keep flying their toy Quads near Airports, endangering full scale aircraft, look out. The hammer's going to fall when it results in a fatality.
Spotting a 50cm drone at 1 mile is like spotting a fly sitting on a blade of grass 30 yards away. (Not impossible but highly unlikely)
Flying at just 250 Kts ( the speed limit below 10,000 feet) you travel 1 mile in 12 seconds.
So assuming you see the drone at 1 mile you have 12 seconds to assess, decide, react and change course.
I maintain any pilot will do what is required to avoid a collision, but the biggest problem is actually seeing the drone early enough to react.
If it is closer than 300 meters when first sighted (more probable) you have 2 seconds before impact. Nobody can react and change course in that time.
Last edited by Rob2160; 04-29-2015 at 09:17 PM.
04-29-2015, 09:58 PM
#1185
I agree it would be hard for a full scale in many cases to spot a model aircraft but yet we seem to get reports on the news almost weekly of some pilot spotting them.
04-30-2015, 02:15 AM
#1186
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Its as easy as this ..full scale aircraft have or ussually have an agreed flight path ...a drone flown by a 13 year old and his loving father ''ussualy has no forward planning other than pressing up and cooing at how high you are ' full scale is regulated and tested and scrutanised to the point in near perfection absolutly everything is thought about before a flight . drones do nothing other than get in the way. i like drones ,i like rc aircraft i dont like mugs that think they can fly as high as they want and they have a right this a right that. drones should be flown in areas that are designated for them to fly with a high restriction that cant put lives in full scale at risk or peopel with a proper respect for the hobby ..ie people who are certified bmfa members and have appropriate insurance . anyone else should be massively fined to the point its a big no no to fly anywhere near full scale heights or fly near an airport .. fine there faces off and remove models from there possesion. The hobby needs serious regulations or face consequences ...same thing happened to fishing in the uk ..u go fishing with no licence and people turn up in stab proof vests with mace and take all your fishing tackle .. proper regulation people who want to go fishing pay for it properly get licenced and follow rules or they lose the privilege.
04-30-2015, 05:06 AM
#1188
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This is getting all too common, I feel something bad is now inevitable.........
http://www.nbcdfw.com/news/local/Dro...01664531.html#
http://www.nbcdfw.com/news/local/Dro...01664531.html#
04-30-2015, 05:10 AM
#1189
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Here is a challenge for anyone reading this thread - can you spot the drone in this video? It is less than half a mile away.
If you are flying an airliner and you spot a drone at this distance you have 5 seconds to react - so be honest… did you see the drone before I highlighted it?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8W8dw8Eker8
04-30-2015, 08:13 AM
#1190
[h=2]Sec. 91.1 — Applicability.[/h](a) Except as provided in paragraphs (b) and (c) of this section and §§91.701 and 91.703, this part prescribes rules governing the operation of aircraft (other than moored balloons, kites, unmanned rockets, and unmanned free balloons, which are governed by part 101 of this chapter, and ultralight vehicles operated in accordance with part 103 of this chapter) within the United States, including the waters within 3 nautical miles of the U.S. coast. (b) Each person operating an aircraft in the airspace overlying the waters between 3 and 12 nautical miles from the coast of the United States must comply with §§91.1 through 91.21; §§91.101 through 91.143; §§91.151 through 91.159; §§91.167 through 91.193; §91.203; §91.205; §§91.209 through 91.217; §91.221, §91.225; §§91.303 through 91.319; §§91.323 through 91.327; §91.605; §91.609; §§91.703 through 91.715; and §91.903.
(c) This part applies to each person on board an aircraft being operated under this part, unless otherwise specified.
(d) This part also establishes requirements for operators to take actions to support the continued airworthiness of each airplane.
(c) This part applies to each person on board an aircraft being operated under this part, unless otherwise specified.
(d) This part also establishes requirements for operators to take actions to support the continued airworthiness of each airplane.
04-30-2015, 09:10 AM
#1191
This is getting all too common, I feel something bad is now inevitable.........
http://www.nbcdfw.com/news/local/Dro...01664531.html#
http://www.nbcdfw.com/news/local/Dro...01664531.html#
04-30-2015, 11:06 AM
#1192
Yep, something real bad is going to happen. The FAA is going to say enough is enough and put and end to all hobby flying. It's time for some vigilante effort on our parts. You see a guy with an FPV destroy the damn thing - the whole thing including the transmitter. Maybe that first $1000 came easy but maybe the second $1000 for a replacement won't be so easy.
Um , RGB , I really don't think the torches and pitchforks will be needed here ....
Yep , the folks who don't have the common sense to not play in traffic WILL end up eliminated , but !
I highly doubt those of us who do our model plane lovin in the approved "AMA position" will be affected ......
04-30-2015, 11:39 AM
#1194
Yep, something real bad is oging to happen. The FAA is going to say enough is enough and put and end to all hobby flying. It's time for some vigilante effort on our parts. You see a guy with an FPV destroy the damn thing - the whole thing including the transmitter. Maybe that first $1000 came easy but mayvbe the second $1000 for a replacement won't be so easy.
04-30-2015, 11:49 AM
#1195
Is this even something up for debate?
I have a hard enough time manoeuvring around birds at 105 knots. There's simply no way a hulking airliner can do the same at 200. Passing the responsibility to the full-scale pilot not only shows a complete lack of concern for the lives and safety of others, but just ignorance to basic physics.
I have a hard enough time manoeuvring around birds at 105 knots. There's simply no way a hulking airliner can do the same at 200. Passing the responsibility to the full-scale pilot not only shows a complete lack of concern for the lives and safety of others, but just ignorance to basic physics.
To support what U say look at the time these pilots had to react to birds. that are bigger than Quads Moving so as to beasier to see than a stationary object "Quad". It's vertiulary to react to an object u almost didn't see 1 or 2 seconds before impact.
Check out these Videos
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TlDWCDnXZ2k
This one is a whole second from spot to the hit. U really think a pilot could avoid?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qzpz261mU2A
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6fPoFH5ON_E
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B0G1bPjoiJM
04-30-2015, 12:06 PM
#1196
Yep, something real bad is oging to happen. The FAA is going to say enough is enough and put and end to all hobby flying. It's time for some vigilante effort on our parts. You see a guy with an FPV destroy the damn thing - the whole thing including the transmitter. Maybe that first $1000 came easy but mayvbe the second $1000 for a replacement won't be so easy.
04-30-2015, 02:11 PM
#1197
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So Sport, Are you defending the position that these newly invented Quad Copters, be given permission to fly above 400Ft.AGL, and are you defending the idiots that fly within the glide path of full scale aircraft anywhere near the 3 Mile rule? If you are, I disagree 100%. Peoples lives will be endangered. I can't disagree more with your thinking, "see and avoid", is the responsibility of the pilot playing with a drone, not playing with Peoples lives! and certainly not the unsuspecting pilot of an airliner filled with 200 people. Again, if these people follow the rules set in place by the FAA and the AMA, none of this would have happened. Yet, people buy these things, knowing nothing about flight rules, and try to fly them, that is where the problem starts. Do you honestly believe a 13 year old kid know anything about flight rules? Most do not, although there exceptions I agree, but on the average, they do not. Some pilots that are members of the AMA, violate flight rules , but here again, most do not.
If this continues to be a more growing problem than it already is, I fear the AMA will be in big trouble, and most of us will be punished because of a few. The first fatality involving a full scale pilot or passengers, will be the crowning blow to all of us.
If this continues to be a more growing problem than it already is, I fear the AMA will be in big trouble, and most of us will be punished because of a few. The first fatality involving a full scale pilot or passengers, will be the crowning blow to all of us.
04-30-2015, 02:39 PM
#1198
ANY fatality caused by a UAS will be due to someone not following either the AMA safety code or the FAA's laws regarding UAS operation . An AMA pilot will not be anywhere near a jetliner , won't be flying over roads houses and cars , and thus will have no involvement in activities that end up on the 6:00 news . When something bad happens , it won't come from any sorts of "traditional" RC and as thus I really don't think we'll see any more regulation than we have already . Remember , we followers of the AMA safety code are NOT the "problem" here and I doubt the govt. is going to go "fixing" a problem that don't exist among us . That's the whole point of all this FAA rulemaking with regards to whats a model plane VS whats a UAS subject to their more stringent regulation . If a lawbreaker breaks either the model plane CBO code or FAA UAS statutes and causes any kind of wreck , they will have the clear cut rules that they can prove the lawbreaker broke and levy the appropriate legal charges .
04-30-2015, 03:16 PM
#1199
I don't think so , and here's why ;
ANY fatality caused by a UAS will be due to someone not following either the AMA safety code or the FAA's laws regarding UAS operation . An AMA pilot will not be anywhere near a jetliner , won't be flying over roads houses and cars , and thus will have no involvement in activities that end up on the 6:00 news . When something bad happens , it won't come from any sorts of "traditional" RC and as thus I really don't think we'll see any more regulation than we have already . Remember , we followers of the AMA safety code are NOT the "problem" here and I doubt the govt. is going to go "fixing" a problem that don't exist among us . That's the whole point of all this FAA rulemaking with regards to whats a model plane VS whats a UAS subject to their more stringent regulation . If a lawbreaker breaks either the model plane CBO code or FAA UAS statutes and causes any kind of wreck , they will have the clear cut rules that they can prove the lawbreaker broke and levy the appropriate legal charges .
ANY fatality caused by a UAS will be due to someone not following either the AMA safety code or the FAA's laws regarding UAS operation . An AMA pilot will not be anywhere near a jetliner , won't be flying over roads houses and cars , and thus will have no involvement in activities that end up on the 6:00 news . When something bad happens , it won't come from any sorts of "traditional" RC and as thus I really don't think we'll see any more regulation than we have already . Remember , we followers of the AMA safety code are NOT the "problem" here and I doubt the govt. is going to go "fixing" a problem that don't exist among us . That's the whole point of all this FAA rulemaking with regards to whats a model plane VS whats a UAS subject to their more stringent regulation . If a lawbreaker breaks either the model plane CBO code or FAA UAS statutes and causes any kind of wreck , they will have the clear cut rules that they can prove the lawbreaker broke and levy the appropriate legal charges .
model planes anyhow.
04-30-2015, 05:26 PM
#1200
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Well, here is a new one.
http://www.wired.com/2015/04/age-dro...-epic-nyc-tag/
The lawmakers will go nuts with this.
http://www.wired.com/2015/04/age-dro...-epic-nyc-tag/
The lawmakers will go nuts with this.