mongo

My Feedback: (15)

at a jet meet in california a coupla few years ago, some corporate pilot complained about a model jet doing a loop, or some other maneuver which would place the model above him inverted, around him while he was on approach. well over 1000 ft agl as well.
best in the west or something like that was the event name.

littlecrankshaf

My Feedback: (58)

Yep, I guess he decided not to continue his practice as a brain surgeon for now...

Hossfly

Right on Frank!

Reading on these past several pages, I wish to present some food-for-thought. Birds and such can do a "L" of a lot of damage. It only takes one entry into a jet engine to shut it down. Depending on the specific engine, just one small item into the compressor section can create significant damage to the entire engine.
Here are a few of the items that I recall at this time:
1. IRAD: People like to play with toys, and do not really get concerned over the "rules". Check out your local court-house and see just how many Speeders, theft, etc., etc. that are there because they violated the RULES!
2.HOUND DOG: Shop Keepers have to sell what the public want. As a Hobby Shop Owner in the "70s, being a CL Stunt and Scale along with Free Flight, Competition modeler, it took just a few days to learn that the current RC stuff was what was in demand. I learned to fly and stock RC stuff very quickly. Whatever the consumers want is what the LHS owner provides in the big time, that is if he seriously wants to stay in business.

SPORT PILOT: Sorry there about your thought concerning "little" damage to airplanes theory. Let me give you some personal items that I well remember.
1. When I was a USAF T-38 instructor pilot, one of the T-37 Instructors was killed by a Buzzard hitting his windshield, cracking through to the instructor in the face even though the IP had his Visor down and an Oxygen mask on, making a landing at a low-level USAF airport. The student saved the airplane.
2. I personally was one of the 3 levels, either 2nd Officer, 1st Officer, or Captain. (UAL 28 years) Forget the USAF 13+ years.
A. 727: Coming out of Denver Stapleton, Something ingested #1 engine. Loud explosion. Speck of blood on outside engine cowling. ENTIRE guts of engine GONE!
B. DC8: Descending towards Ohare: At 18000 ft MSL, heavy "bang". Made some adjustments. Bird damage on right wing LE. Tore into wing up to the front spar.
Damage to airframe and almost into several fuel, hydraulic, and electrical lines running along the spar.
C. Numerous BUMPS some leaving cracks, etc. during the time period. I don't recall any damages while FO in the B-737, but numerous close calls.
D. 727. (I flew all 3 seats there.) I do not recall any HURTS but I dodged a number of things.

I did instruct in USAF T-33 and T-38. T-38 was horrible for any ingestion. Very thin compressor blades. (about like double-edge razor blade) and foreign object damage was anything more than a bumble Bee!
I did a "must not do" once trying to get a really good student soloed. Went through some rain at the training field, but was told field was shutting down so no landings.
Student started a go-around and both engines had compressor damage stalls, with flames coming forward. I grabbed the controls, got a restart on #1, but not on #2. Nursed back to home base and made a good landing. WHEWWWW!

So fellows, while I dislike them, the "DRONES" ,or whatever you wish to call them, are here to stay. Instead of rabble-rousing and such, how about just assuring your RC fields are suitable for the machine and the pilots are trained to follow the RULES of your club. If they refuse send them down the road and let the local Gestapo
entertain them.

You are simply P&Ming against BIG MONEY. Never works!

phlpsfrnk

Normal approach speeds are between 120 to 150 Knots depending on aircraft size and weight. 200 mph is approximately 173 knots. Anyone with any experience in the cockpit of an airplane, civil or commercial would have no problem seeing the relative motion of other objects in the air while on approach to landing. "little bitty" is a relative term but it was close enough to see it and determine its color which means it was close.

Frank

littlecrankshaf

My Feedback: (58)

...and "close" is a relative term...

phlpsfrnk

Yes it is, but I mean to say it was "too close", which is still a relative term.

N410DC

Good news: they are few and far in between
Bad news: they all work for the FAA,

bradpaul

The statement that either a "bird strike" or a "drone strike" will destroy a turbin engine is false. It depends on the size/weight of the bird or drone.

In fact modern jet engines are designed to withstand the ingestion of a bird up to 4lb.

Quote:

Most large commercial jet engines include design features that ensure they can shut-down after "ingesting" a bird weighing up to 1.8 kg (4 lb). The engine does not have to survive the ingestion, just be safely shut down. This is a 'stand alone' requirement, i.e., the engine, not the aircraft, must pass the test. Multiple strikes (from hitting a bird flock) on twin engine jet aircraft are very serious events because they can disable multiple aircraft systems, requiring emergency action to land the aircraft, as in the January 15, 2009, forced ditching of US Airways Flight 1549.

So just what was the actual danger from a "little bitty red drone"?

Sport_Pilot

Did you not notice that the little bitty one was over 4000 feet? I know the larger ones can but doubt the quad pilot could even see a small one at that height. I had troube seeing a sailplane at that altitude. I think the pilot saw an orange brested falcon.

jrf

My Feedback: (551)

Fpv

phlpsfrnk

Are we talking about one of these,



or one of these,



or something more specific in between?

Sport_Pilot

A turkey vulture aka buzzard weighs in at 5 pounds, hence its name. Plus a T37 cruise's much faster than an airliner on landing and has a pexiglass windshield not the thick laminate windshield of an airliner. And as you say the small military engines have fragile blades compared to a modern airliner. A modern airliner's windshield can take the impact of hail. You won't see much out of it afterwards though. I doubt the engine would have quit on a more modern 727 engine as the modern engines can take a lot of hail damage and keep running, this from research of Southern Airway's flight 242. Look it up, that one took off from my hometown and crashed near where I live.

Keep in mind we are talking about a very tiny quad probably less than two pounds, maybe less than one pound. Yes I agree a larger drone that would be able to fly 4000 feet could do some serious damage, still I doubt it would take down an airliner, but a remote possibility that it would do more the hurt the performance of the engine.

ramboamt

My Feedback: (36)

Was there and the jet pilot flew around the full size one complete circle he did not LOOP the plane but circled round the full size. The full size pilot was below approach altitude and a NOTAM was in effect of the jet rally that weekend and the flying field is on the sectional chart for that region, this was at the PVMAC field just south of Chino airport in Chino, CA.. The full size approached from the south east instead of from the east. He landed and then contacted the local police who followed him to the field where he walked right up to the jet in question and pointed it out from all of the other jets, so it was close enough for him to recognize the plane when it was on the ground. The flying field was shut down for several months by the FAA and after that NO jets are allowed to fly there.

Sport_Pilot

I took it as something with maybe a 10 inch diameter. The pilot would have mistaken that smaller one for a bug. Maybe he mistook a bug for a drone?

phlpsfrnk

I seriously doubt the small one will make 4000 ft., the large one however....

HoundDog

My Feedback: (49)

Cranky:
My good man explain your self ... I under your disdain for the AMA but if people can't obey the simplest of rules and do foolish things like fly as to endanger others then they have to be dwelt with in other ways. Again when is the last time U herad or wittnessed any interference by a RC anything near or at a Chartered flying field. Please answer the question in stead of making STUPID STATEMENTS Like "What a dark time in history would that be".

Sport_Pilot

I don't think argueing for safety is the point. The point is that the story appears to be fabricated.

bradpaul

That is what is important ........... "little bitty red one" and 4000' just don't make sense............................................. ........ I doubt that there is a little bitty red drone that could carry all the necessary batteries, rx, video tx any other necessary gear to fly over 4000' away from a fpv pilot.

CESSNA 421

My Feedback: (17)

I have been closely following the comments about this very serious issue of drones and “Hossfly” has hit it on the head....drones or whatever we choose to call them are here to stay. I am an officer in the club in my area and our meeting is tonight and I am going to propose a motion to ban all drone flying at our field. At least we can prevent our club from being accused of proliferating the reckless flying of drones at our club's field buy banning their use entirely. I would encourage all the other clubs to take similar action ad perhaps the only people flying the drones will be the "outlaws" and not associated with any legitimate club.

Sport_Pilot

Why would you ban them at a club where they are required to fly safely? Makes no sense. Also many are not flown FPV so that would be no different than fly a helicopter, except easier to fly. Makes no sense if you believe they are here to stay.

flyinwalenda

My Feedback: (5)

That is a shortsighted and somewhat ignorant approach ....just ban them !! Why? because someone feels they are unsafe? Have you banned helicopters also ? Why not take the time to make a set of club rules that are fair/ mirror the AMA rules and allow them to fly at your club? Help teach safe flying to newcomers and folks who have them ...isn't that what a club is supposed to be about?
If safety is the only concern I will bet you have several "veteran" club members who make other members run for cover when they fly their fixed wings ! Banning things rarely solves any perceived issue with them. Hope you rethink that proposal.

N410DC

Banning quads from reputable flying clubs is not the answer. The people who are making the news for idiotic UAVs activity are not being taught to fly at clubs. As far as I know, 100% of the people who have made national news my mis-using UAVS did not launch the UAV from a AMA flying site. If a local club is contacted by the media about a local person who used their UAV as a peeping tom, the club should simply respond by stating that the pilot was not a club member, and that the pilot of the UAV should go to prison for his activity. Better yet, invite the reporter and a photographer to the club to see how UAVs can be operated safely and responsibly.

If your club members are mis-using UAVs, then ban those particular individuals (same goes for heli and fixed wing pilots, of course.) If they are acting responsibly, then why should they be banned?!

Hossfly

A T-37 does not cruise very fast, about 250 KIAS if I recall. I did not fly it as a pilot, but a 130 hours as a student. As I stated, the IP that was killed was on final approach, not at cruise. The T-37 was a "L" of a lot slower than any of the big jets. In any case that argument is not valid for this discussion.

My 41 years and some 20,000 +/- flying hours have little bearing on the subject here other than it helps me when providing some experience. In any case to think that the "little thing cannot cause a problem in a Jet Engine" is simply typical of the unlearned. My experience does provide - to me at least - information that any pilot-less air-machine is capable of doing serious damage to any other aircraft. Today, FAA is so much on "Fly the auto-pilot', so many of the younger pilots, and some of the older "?" pilots are so head-in-the-cockpit they have no conception of what is out there in front. It is, to me, a very sad state of affairs. On the other hand I had two
co-pilots along the way, that simply could not fly and look outside at the same time. One was ex-USAF -- bad!. The other was a lady, except in the cock-pit. YUCK!
She could fly the glide-slope and make an OK landing most of the time. Getting her to find the glideslope, well that was a whol-'nother ball game.
Way off topic here, but some of you fellows don't look ahead very well, don't have a lot of experience in air-traffic situations,and when these RC folks are only interested in, "WOW, Look at that thing go". Without experience of possible serious incidents, those that have little concern of what "....that thing.... could do...", well I do get concerned. I don't want any of the family or friends to get hurt in an airliner crash or the FAA to get involved big time. There is a need to keep things safe,
yet for those that like this stuff, I hope they get to do it. Those outside AMA Clubs will provide the largest problems. The congress will do whatever the money-handlers hand them to do. If you are AMA, I suggest you stay there and try to see that AMA does more than play big-time. Keep up with who does what and keep your attention to this forum. Lots to "assist" the AMA Staff especially in the new AMA Foundation.

littlecrankshaf

My Feedback: (58)

My disdain for AMA??? Where do people get that erroneous perception??? My disdain is for people that perceive AMA as something it isn't... or people that really feel some entity, such as AMA, NRA, NAACP, GOP, DPS, FAA, FCC, EPA, DHS, FBI, IRS CPS, etc,etc...is responsible for directing every aspect of their life. It seems people are welcoming the coming of totalitarianism...I guess so they don't have to think for themselves, is the best I can figure...People seem to welcome being rendered to an average no greater than the lowest common denominator.

rrembert

Sport_Pilot...speaking as someone that flies jets for a living, I shake my head in wonder at your apparent lack of respect for the damage that could be done in the event there was a collision or ingestion with jets or any aircraft for that matter. It's obvious you have little concept of the danger inherent. If you are ok with riding in the back of the plane you describe while such an event happens you must have a screw loose.