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Do we really need the ama, or is it just like auto insurance...another ripoff?

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Do we really need the ama, or is it just like auto insurance...another ripoff?

Old 12-20-2014, 08:39 AM
  #226  
HoundDog
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Originally Posted by macmoke1
Nay we don't need the AMA. . . The AMA in my opinion works very hard on the side of Modelers and we should have some type of Special Interest group representing us with the Government. The problem with the AMA is that they act in good faith when dealing with the Government. As we have seen in the past year, any deals/negotiations etc with the Government is like dealing with North Korea. The government is made of a bunch of narcissistic liars with the only goal of expanding and controlling as many people as it can. We saw this in the negotiations on the AMA "Rule" Everything that was negotiated was promptly ignored by the Government and they grabbed more power by conveniently ignoring the law written by congress stating that "modeling activities governed by the AMA were exempt from any rules and regulations buy the FAA." The problem is not with the AMA but the crack smoking, lying, cheating, stealing government representatives.
Macky man Now tell us how really feel about the GOVERNMENT LOL
Is that someone in black at your door? Do U hear the Helicopters yet?
Old 12-20-2014, 08:40 AM
  #227  
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Originally Posted by HoundDog
Like I said Just wait and see Johnney
The FAA and the AMA won't pass up a chance for more Revenue ...
Besides taking a written test to prove U know and understand the Rules
and
Per JohnShe U Under stand the " AMA guidelines and stay out of places where you don't belong. "
HD, I don't think there is enough tinfoil in the world to help you. Your opinions are baseless and just a teeny bit nutz.
Old 12-20-2014, 09:09 AM
  #228  
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Whoops! You can say that again.
Old 12-20-2014, 09:26 AM
  #229  
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Originally Posted by Greybeard1
You are aware that every amateur radio operator is licensed? and the term amateur well defined? None of them are complaining about having to study to get the license, why should something that can be deadly if mishandled not be held to the same requirements. That being, prove you know what you're doing before you can do it. A 6 pound model at 60 mph works out to 528 ft/lb/sec. compare that with some firearms, the model has more impact. We're not playing with toys.

Rich.
Well, GB you have part of a point, but not all of it. HAM operators use the public frequencies regulated by the FCC, just like we do. The FCC has set aside frequencies for various uses. In the good old days, these were shared by a number of user classes. Things have changed somewhat depending on technology and use. But, certain public frequencies such as the ones used by HAM operators are still regulated and require licenses to use.

The drone situation is similar depending on how the Nations Airspace is being used and the technology involved, many aviators are required to have licenses. All manned aircraft operators require a pilot's certificate. Drone aircraft is a new technology to some degrees and quite old from other viewpoints. Recreational drone uses are not allowed to use the full NAS. We are severely restricted by location, altitude ranges and see and avoid responsibilities. For the last 75 years, give or take, we have not needed licenses. But, the advent of commercial drones has added a new wrinkle to the situation.

Congress passed the 2012 FAA Modernization Act to fund the FAA, and added in it, directions to integrate commercial and public service drones intro the NAS. At the request of the AMA, congress added a rule freeing recreational model aviation from any of the drone integration regulations. That means,that as long as we operate within the spirit of sensible safety guidelines, such as the AMA's safety guidelines, we are free from regulation. This means, that recreation model aviators will not need a license. I can't say the same for commercial operators, but that is their problem not mine.

Last edited by JohnShe; 12-20-2014 at 12:06 PM. Reason: Corrected typo, my bad.
Old 12-20-2014, 09:28 AM
  #230  
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JohnShe,

You are right, HounDog is not going to be able to produce the 1000 page operating plan that shows how the government will put in place licensing requirements for our hobby. That doesn't mean it couldn't happen. If greater regulation can occur in the area of our 2nd Amendment, certainly it can in our hobby which isn't a Right. I'd rather have an organization like the AMA to work to keep it from happening or at least not be onerous.

Graybeard,

From your name, I assume you must be an old guy, in this hobby for awhile. The size and speed of our aircraft have fit your "model" for many decades. Do you feel government licensing was required back in the day? Or do you just think it is something we need now? If it's the later, what is your reasoning?

Lars
Old 12-20-2014, 09:30 AM
  #231  
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Like most of these polls, the results are skewed by the manner in which the question is asked.

The word "Need" implies that the AMA is essential to the activity of model aviation. Put another way, would model aviation exist without the AMA? I think it probably would but on a much smaller scale. There are plenty of countries around the world where modeling is pursued without benefit of the AMA or similar organizations.

Furthermore, by asking if "WE" need the AMA confuses the question further by not defining who "We" is. Some of us get more benefit from our membership in the AMA than others. Modelers living in Muncie benefit to a greater degree than those living elsewhere. RC modelers get more benefit from the AMA insurance than rubber power modelers or control line modelers. Competition focused modelers benefit from sanctioned events that the sport modeler does not. Ones sense of "NEED" depends on their chosen activity.

So do ALL modelers NEED the AMA? Probably not. Should we support the AMA regardless of our modeling interest, for the benefits they offer to overall modeling activities in this country? I vote yes.
Old 12-20-2014, 10:44 AM
  #232  
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Originally Posted by LarsL
JohnShe,

You are right, HounDog is not going to be able to produce the 1000 page operating plan that shows how the government will put in place licensing requirements for our hobby. That doesn't mean it couldn't happen. If greater regulation can occur in the area of our 2nd Amendment, certainly it can in our hobby which isn't a Right. I'd rather have an organization like the AMA to work to keep it from happening or at least not be onerous.
The law says that, as long as we obey the rules of a CBO, they cannot regulate us. There is no 1000 page secret plan, there never will be. The FAA has published a road map for integrating the commercial drones, it is only a few pages and says nothing about licenses for recreational activity. The FAA has published an interpretation of the model airplane special rule in the law. Their interpretation specifically stats that as long as we obey the rules of a CBO we will l not be regulated. They have also stated, that for those who cannot or will not obey the rules, they will apply existing regulations and they will punished severely. That's fine with me.



Originally Posted by LarsL
Graybeard,

From your name, I assume you must be an old guy, in this hobby for awhile. The size and speed of our aircraft have fit your "model" for many decades. Do you feel government licensing was required back in the day? Or do you just think it is something we need now? If it's the later, what is your reasoning?

Lars
I am curious as well.

Last edited by JohnShe; 12-20-2014 at 10:52 AM.
Old 12-20-2014, 10:56 AM
  #233  
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Originally Posted by JohnShe
Well, GB you have part of a point, but not all of it. HAM operators use the public frequencies regulated by the FAA, just like we do. The FAA has set aside frequencies for various uses. In the good old days, these were shared by a number of user classes. Things have changed somewhat depending on technology and use. But, certain public frequencies such as the ones used by HAM operators are still regulated and require licenses to use.

The drone situation is similar depending on how the Nations Airspace is being used and the technology involved, many aviators are required to have licenses. All manned aircraft operators require a pilot's certificate. Drone aircraft is a new technology to some degrees and quite old from other viewpoints. Recreational drone uses are not allowed to use the full NAS. We are severely restricted by location, altitude ranges and see and avoid responsibilities. For the last 75 years, give or take, we have not needed licenses. But, the advent of commercial drones has added a new wrinkle to the situation.

Congress passed the 2012 FAA Modernization Act to fund the FAA, and added in it, directions to integrate commercial and public service drones intro the NAS. At the request of the AMA, congress added a rule freeing recreational model aviation from any of the drone integration regulations. That means,that as long as we operate within the spirit of sensible safety guidelines, such as the AMA's safety guidelines, we are free from regulation. This means, that recreation model aviators will not need a license. I can't say the same for commercial operators, but that is their problem not mine.
John, do you know the difference between the FAA and the FCC? Just saying...........
Old 12-20-2014, 11:03 AM
  #234  
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AMA insurance doesn't just cover you at the field, and it's also a supplemental insurance, as it only kicks in after your other insurances, homeowners, health, etc., have put in their share. It's covered people who's batteries caught fire in their home, medical bills for prop bites, etc.
Old 12-20-2014, 11:04 AM
  #235  
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Originally Posted by JohnShe
Well, GB you have part of a point, but not all of it. HAM operators use the public frequencies regulated by the FAA, just like we do. The FAA has set aside frequencies for various uses. In the good old days, these were shared by a number of user classes. Things have changed somewhat depending on technology and use. But, certain public frequencies such as the ones used by HAM operators are still regulated and require licenses to use.
I rather think the FCC would be a little miffed if the FAA was to attempt to regulate frequencies in the spectrum. The FAA has nothing to do with frequency assignments, and they have to comply with the rules and regs of the FCC.
Old 12-20-2014, 11:13 AM
  #236  
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Originally Posted by JohnShe
The law says that, as long as we obey the rules of a CBO, they cannot regulate us. There is no 1000 page secret plan, there never will be. The FAA has published a road map for integrating the commercial drones, it is only a few pages and says nothing about licenses for recreational activity. The FAA has published an interpretation of the model airplane special rule in the law. Their interpretation specifically stats that as long as we obey the rules of a CBO we will l not be regulated. They have also stated, that for those who cannot or will not obey the rules, they will apply existing regulations and they will punished severely. That's fine with me.





I am curious as well.
I don't think there is a 1000 page plan either, I merely was pointing out that HoundDog doesn't have any proof or facts that licensing regulations are coming. He's however is not so naive and nor am I to think that licensing our hobby can "never happen" as you say. I learned along time ago to know that nothing is absolute. I hope you are right, but I won't put my trust in hope. That is why I think we the AMA is needed.

Lars
Old 12-20-2014, 11:25 AM
  #237  
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Originally Posted by rcmiket
A FAA guy walks into the hobby shop on Thursday here in El Paso to discuss "drones". Asks about the local clubs. Drops off theses for them to post in the store. Don't tell me they are not looking at our hobby as a whole.The AMA website is mentioned at the bottom in really small letters.I wish i would have been there to speak with him.

Mike
That's nothing new, I know i posted that in some thread months ago. They are not looking to target any clubs, but of course they are looking to get the word out to our hobby as a whole, who else would they be looking at? They've covered both possible bases, the folks that fly in clubs at fields, and those that don't.

This was also on the AMA website a while back.

Curious though, what would you have said to the "FAA guy" had you met him?
Old 12-20-2014, 11:30 AM
  #238  
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Originally Posted by HoundDog




Maybe not yet but u will be licensed sooner if not later you'll get it either from the feds or the
only CBO the AMA.
For the average hobbyist, no, that won't happen. For someone doing commercial work, ya, probably, and I have no issues with that at all. Just make the license reasonable, and fair to attain for all.
Old 12-20-2014, 11:32 AM
  #239  
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Originally Posted by macmoke1
Nay we don't need the AMA. . . The AMA in my opinion works very hard on the side of Modelers and we should have some type of Special Interest group representing us with the Government. The problem with the AMA is that they act in good faith when dealing with the Government. As we have seen in the past year, any deals/negotiations etc with the Government is like dealing with North Korea. The government is made of a bunch of narcissistic liars with the only goal of expanding and controlling as many people as it can. We saw this in the negotiations on the AMA "Rule" Everything that was negotiated was promptly ignored by the Government and they grabbed more power by conveniently ignoring the law written by congress stating that "modeling activities governed by the AMA were exempt from any rules and regulations buy the FAA." The problem is not with the AMA but the crack smoking, lying, cheating, stealing government representatives.
HEY! Watch it there bud. :/
Don't start talking smack about Toronto's mayor, Rob Ford just because he admitted that he has used crack cocaine. Not only is he an outstanding and respected drug user, he has supported the drug community for many years with his addiction.

BTW ... if we got rid of all those "crack smoking, lying, cheating, stealing government representatives" there would be no one left in the government.

Last edited by BobbyMcGee; 12-20-2014 at 11:34 AM.
Old 12-20-2014, 11:49 AM
  #240  
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Originally Posted by bobbymcgee
hey! Watch it there bud. :/
don't start talking smack about toronto's mayor, rob ford just because he admitted that he has used crack cocaine. Not only is he an outstanding and respected drug user, he has supported the drug community for many years with his addiction. :d

btw ... If we got rid of all those "crack smoking, lying, cheating, stealing government representatives" there would be no one left in the government.
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Old 12-20-2014, 12:02 PM
  #241  
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Originally Posted by bradpaul
John, do you know the difference between the FAA and the FCC? Just saying...........
OOPs! I just caught the typo, my bad. Well, AA is not the same as CC. In the simplest possible viewpoint that are both government agencies created by congress. The FAA regulates the the use of NAS, the FCC regulates the use of radio frequencies. I thought that you knew that.

Last edited by JohnShe; 12-20-2014 at 12:04 PM.
Old 12-20-2014, 12:06 PM
  #242  
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Originally Posted by LarsL
JohnShe,



Graybeard,

From your name, I assume you must be an old guy, in this hobby for awhile. The size and speed of our aircraft have fit your "model" for many decades. Do you feel government licensing was required back in the day? Or do you just think it is something we need now? If it's the later, what is your reasoning?

Lars
Only since about 1950, but relatively new to RC, sometime in the late 1970's. For the hobby as it was, when a ten pound plane was one that needed to be put on a diet, then today, with some of them getting very heavy and powerful, the public safety has to be considered along with what we would like or not like. Large models aren't new, back in the late thirties and forties, choices for engines was, shall we say, limited, and planes tended to be between 7 to 9 feet, some smaller, some bigger. In comparison, the model I used as an example, which could be a heavy .40 size ship or an average .60, my memory from the days I handloaded ammunition, that amount of energy is three times a .45APC. Multiply that with some models that are 20 to 40 pounds, about the same speed, considering public safety, it becomes clear that some control of the skill level of the pilot be considered, and some method of examination. Not necessarily for everyone, but in the realm of large scale, my belief is it's well past time that some certification should be in place.

Not picking on the large scale modelers, but they should realize that those large models present a much larger danger in the event of radio failure or a fly away, which is more likely with the large scale as it can be seen a lot further than one that I'd be flying. Once your model becomes a little black speck, you don't have any idea what it's doing, and not much further, it's flying on it's own. It doesn't know there are populated areas, much less know to avoid them.

I'm not hiding that I'm returning after a long absence, but the arguments concerning the AMA are the same as they were when I first began building models. I'll be flying at Bong, a state park, but one with a designated RC field. complete with blacktop runways, which I disagree with and have since the superintendent asked me what I wanted. (Long story involves politicians, we don't want to go there.) No requirements for AMA insurance, and the park itself is not responsible for anything that happens on that field. It draws those that otherwise wouldn't be flying, some I've seen shouldn't be flying anything but a HLG, and then only with supervision. I will be a member, but at this time when I have planes under construction and nothing ready to fly yet, holding on to the money until I have a need seems to make sense. But the question of the need of the AMA, and membership, I think the answer is yes. The possibility of some new regulation brings the question of who would police and administer, I'd rather it was modelers and not politicians.

Rich.
Old 12-20-2014, 12:10 PM
  #243  
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I completely agree with HoundDog. I can't trust a word that comes out of Obama's mouth. Do you people even realize the destruction that Obama has caused in releasing 5 top Taliban terrorist leaders in exchange for Bowe Bergdahl? The army is pissed! Bergdahl received back pay for 5 years of being "held captive" all the while he betrayed his country and his platoon. Flatly, he's a traitor. There's a LT. Col that was given point on how to get him back. He gave Obama 3 options of getting him back. And the one that Muslim Brotherhood Obama chose aided the enemy greatly. Not to mention Benghazi and every other lie that he's spouted out over his dictatorship. He completely bypasses the law of the land and Congress. He's written more executive actions that have torn this country down. He's completely divided this nation. Look at Ferguson and his Judge Advocate. Look at the polls from this last election! 99% of the country voted Republican. I don't trust the government as far as I can toss a center block.
Old 12-20-2014, 12:23 PM
  #244  
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flytheedge has no credibility left. And I thought politics were off limits. On any of the 3d graphic groups, he'd already have his lifetime ban. they do not accept conspirowhackos well.

Rich.
Old 12-20-2014, 01:16 PM
  #245  
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Originally Posted by Greybeard1
flytheedge has no credibility left. And I thought politics were off limits. On any of the 3d graphic groups, he'd already have his lifetime ban. they do not accept conspirowhackos well.

Rich.
Well I sure won't buy his gloves either.
Old 12-20-2014, 01:32 PM
  #246  
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Originally Posted by porcia83
For the average hobbyist, no, that won't happen. For someone doing commercial work, ya, probably, and I have no issues with that at all. Just make the license reasonable, and fair to attain for all.
"Were the government and were here to help you" why does that not give me a warm and fuzzy feeling? Anytime they get more involved it never works out well. I didn't say they were targeting clubs.what I said was anyone who thinks were not on the radar is a fool..

Mike
Old 12-20-2014, 01:51 PM
  #247  
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Fighting the urge to send a spelling flame.

Rich.
Old 12-20-2014, 02:07 PM
  #248  
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I think think there is more to your story! I have done 4 claims with the AMA and AMA has paid every time!!




Originally Posted by rcmiket
Sport Flyers was primary insurance. AMA insurance is secondary to ANY other insurance you have. As far as just how good it is who knows until you try and collect ( which is true of any insurance). I know of only one claim here a guy accidentally flew his plane into a another s truck the claim was denied and not paid by the AMA but taken care of by the truck owners auto insurance. The AMA is not in the insurance business but is there to look at promoting the hobby that's it. Without the hobby they would not exist. The next few years will be the true test of just how good the AMA is with all this "drone" stuff happening.

Mike
Old 12-20-2014, 02:07 PM
  #249  
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Originally Posted by rcmiket
"Were the government and were here to help you" why does that not give me a warm and fuzzy feeling? Anytime they get more involved it never works out well. I didn't say they were targeting clubs.what I said was anyone who thinks were not on the radar is a fool..

Mike
Yes by all means, let's blame the guv'mint.....we don't need them involved in anything right? Sheesh.
Old 12-20-2014, 02:09 PM
  #250  
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3 things ...1.) The FAA is government Congress Is government we have to talk Politics when discussing These government. agencies ...
2.) We won't be licensed if we Obey the Rules of the CBO. With out some sort of test and a peice of paper how do U prove U know the Rules. And 3.) Not If but when someone (because They have no Idea of the rules of the CBO) as a recreational flyer interferes with the flight of a maned aircraft or worse, U going to tell me all the kids the AMA signed up for FREE have read or even know of the AMA/CBO Rules. Not a chance. How many of U think that people read the warnings that come with all the models sold through Hobby Shops and mail order today to Join the AMA and fly only at places away from houses, people and no congested places.
If U believe the Rules of the CBO are being followed by the 70% of people flying some sort of R/C plane today U are sorely mistaken. Need proof Look on You Tube or the Go Pro Channel or any internet place that's supports that kind of video. These people don't in most cases don't know of the rules of the AMA/CBO nor do they care about any rules. Most AMA members can't even get the rules of their own CBO right when asked to explain them.
[h=3]SEC. 336. SPECIAL RULE FOR MODEL AIRCRAFT.[/h]

        Administrator to pursue enforcement action against persons operating model aircraft who endanger the safety of the national airspace system.." If 70% have never read or even understand the rules of a CBO..

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