gcgabelm

I have flown rc airplanes in open fields unregulated open pavement were you flew at your own risk and I have found that the structure and guidance set by the ama and the chartered clubs that I fly at provide a fun and safe environment ! that is why I am an ama and club member.

aeronca52

And that is fine! Everybody has their own preferences.

I like to be alone when I fly, nobody hassling me with questions or telling me where I can do whatever it is I want to do.

A long as we can agree to our own disciplines and still come together to fight the FAA, things will turn out ok.

JohnShe

Wow HD, that was quite a rant. I think you have seriously misunderstood the law. Endangering the NAS has noting to do with obeying the CBO guidelines. For any act that creates a real danger to the NAS, the FAA has specifically stated that they will apply their existing regulations as they suit the infraction. If you want to stay out of trouble, you obey the CBO guidelines and remain invisible to the FAA.

I can't quote the AMA safety code verbaitim, but I know how to obey it on my clubs flying field.

Greybeard1

There are those that even if the FAA issued a NPRM stating they weren't going to even look at models, they'd be mad at the "ebil gubmint" anyhow. The same people that drive without insurance, and refuse to vote because the "gubmint" encourages them to. The same ones that "Ain't nobody gon tell me what I can do and can't!" Fortunately, the minority. Unfortunately, a loud minority.

Rich.

aeronca52

My hidden fears are that the AMA is trying to put itself in the FAA's face and insist that only AMA members be allowed to fly models, since the AMA is self policing and the national 'voice' of modeldom. It will never work out, because I think that AMA members are 50% or less (way less) of the total model flying population in the US.

Besides, no matter how hard the AMA tries to police model flyers, there will always be uninformed ppl who will go online, buy an ARF and go to the local park and fly. Why join the Coast Guard Axillary if I'm only using my boat in the local lake?

Besides, if a model flyer, (airplane , helicopter, quad, hand launch glider) does do something to jeopardize the national airspace, if it's serious enough,the FAA will deal with that individual directly through the courts. I doubt if they will ask the AMA to take care of the incident 'in house'.

Besides, even though I fly in my family’s fields and not at club I'm still a safe pilot and am still insured with my homeowners insurance. (which I'm lead to believe every AMA member must use before their AMA insurance kicks in). I have well over 100 built models with about 30 ready to fly at any time. The last crash I had was in the mid 90's when a Free Flight I converted to r/c folded one wing when I tried to spiral out of a strong thermal. When I go the local club for their fun fly in summer some pilots go through (crash) airplanes one a month. Who needs the insurance most?

Besides, I'm not an idiot just because I don't belong to a club. I used to belong to model rocket clubs, model airplane clubs, EAA chapters, the National Aeronca Club, and the Silver Wings club. Dropped 'em all because of the internal squabbling. I want to enjoy my flying, it's my time away from the hassles of life, not to add to them.

This is supposed to be fun, let's keep it that way.

binns aero

Hey Aeronca52!, Point well made. I have flown a long time none AMA.And a long time with the AMA. They lost my numbers in the move from the east to Indiana,Makes you wonder how they can police anything.AMA member now, the club rules.I guess it's alright to fly with a club if I don't have home-owners,or renters?

Greybeard1

First, the insurance issue. If you look, and I have, unless you have a rider, there is the aircraft exclusion, and a model, even one of the cheap Guillows gliders is an aircraft to them. Damage to property, injury to someone else, no rider,no coverage and some companies don't even offer a rider. You may feel you're a safe pilot, until the injured party's lawyer starts on the incompetent, careless, irresponsible, that you'll be forced to try to counter. It does, and has happened.

Second, if there's a violation warranting prosecution, the FAA won't even give a thought to someone else prosecuting it, that's their realm and they're not going to let anyone else try to step in. Period.

It's not about your rights member or not, it's about the responsibility that comes with that right and a lot of people don't want to accept it. Someone may have the right to fly models, there are a lot that don't want the responsibility of doing so in a safe and reasonable manner. Those are the ones complaining. For nothing. Not even a NPRM yet, more than likely, never will be.

I assume when you say 50% or less, you're including the park fliers, which may or may not be true. However, they remain the only organized voice of model aviation in the US. Clubs are kinda caught in a trap, insurance is necessary, outside the AMA it's also nonexistent. AMA isn't going to extend coverage to non members, and it's not even reasonable to think they should. I don't see that as infringing on anything, they provide what is otherwise unobtainable.

Rich.

aeronca52

Thanks binns,
I guess if you don't have any home/renters insurance then maybe AMA becomes your primary insurance. IDK.

I used to be an AMA member years ago but soured on it when a local club moved to a field within 1/8 mile of my house (!). Shortly after, one of the members called on me to tell me I could no longer fly in my backyard over my family's fields, (which I'd been doing for well over 25 years at that point) because they were an AMA chartered club and I was not. Talk about raising the hackles on one's neck. I politely told him what frequency I had been flying on, and would continue flying on, and suggested they avoid using that channel. Long story short, the neighbors 1/4 mile on the other side of the club were so annoyed by the club's low flying and buzzing all weekend the club disbanded within 2 years.

I continued flying, but avoided anything with AMA on it after that.

BTW I'm in Bethlehem.

aeronca52

You nailed it Greybeard, responsibility! Without it, any pilot becomes a public risk.

In today's world, anybody in control (or not) of a radio control moving object is at risk. Model airplane or car, just hit little Johnny in the playground and you are going to have to pay his ER visit or worse. Even a hit in the back of the head with a hand launched glider is subject. But how does a guy who built a Walmart Guillows model go about knowing about the AMA and it's coverage? Or even think his rubber band and tissue P-51 is sue-worthy?

FWIW I asked my homowner insurance lady specifically about model airplanes and she said I was covered.

rcmiket

About what I expected..

Mike

Greybeard1

So, for the acts of one member, that I'm certain the AMA wouldn't back up, the whole organization becomes only a burden? Doesn't anyone read that thing they used to put in with transmitters, that as it's an unlicensed and unregulated device, you agree to put up with any and all interference that may be caused in it's use, without recourse? AMA has nothing to do with the use of any radio device, and the ARRL isn't interested in anything beyond the amateur radio bands. The FCC has already told you the conditions of the use of the device, and you accept them or don't use it. That applies to clubs as well as anyone else.

Rich.

binns aero

Hey aeronca52., Just to keep the fire burnin, I was in a club in North Jersey,three didget charter number toboot. Club pres. turned out to be a convicted child molester (boy scouts). Came to light when the BSA went public with old records.(this occured in the 80's) He let the club decide if he could stay.Morals are great thing, HELL NO,, out he went! I became pres. had close to 45 members and flew in a state park,with permission,He went on to try and sue the members,and the state couldn't legally keep him out of the park. We disbanded and formed a new club in New York State. The AMA could care less about the problem we had.But were glad to charter our new club.

aeronca52

No, Rich, it wasn't the frequency thing, it was the attitude that I had to stop doing something I had been doing for 26 odd years ( in my own backyard)just because they moved into the neighborhood. They could have just as easily first asked what channel I was on and offer to avoid it. But no, the first words were, 'you can't fly here anymore'.

I'm open minded enough to realize the whole membership of the AMA didn't try to forbid me from backyard flying. For all I know maybe the guy who came to my house didn't even have the club's backing. (but he said he did). FWIW my dad taught this fellow and his brother how to fly, so maybe he felt he 'matured' enough to tell us what to do. As I'm typing this I distinctly remember him telling us (my dad was flying with me that day) he didn't want this confrontation to turn into a 'sticky situation', we should just quit flying.

FWIW on the other side of town there are 2 clubs, the second picked a field within 5 miles of the first, which immediately tried to shut the 2nd down. Both AMA charted. Not that there's anything wrong with that, just saying it out loud.

Like I said, 'hassles', I don't need them anymore.

That said, I'm not an AMA hater. The AMA has done great things for model aviaiton, but I just don't need to be a member anymore.

Let's have fun.

Greybeard1

What would you have expected them to do? Go beg the state to violate his rights? Set up an armed guard to keep him away? The state has to follow the laws, the AMA has no authority in a state facility. You're asking a lot that they can't do.

Rich.

Greybeard1

Missed my point. That being, apparently nobody in the club checked, nobody asked AMA anything, it sounds like one member took it on himself to play God. AMA would have told him outright that their authority for anything ends precisely at the boundary of their field, and not one inch further. Attitude,yes, but the attitude of one member or one club, and not that of the AMA. He didn't want it to turn into a sticky situation, probably because he knew he would be the one stuck. They can request, you don't have to grant it, They can't dictate.

Rich.

aeronca52

Amen! He wanted to play God.

The owner of the field actually came down to see my models twice and we got along great. But the others i never met.

binns aero

Hey Grey! The state only allowed use to fly as a CHARTERED club, thats by the AMA!, so the AMA can't revoke a charter? The only members left may total 3, and one of them is a CONVICTED CHILD MOLESTER!, I guess the AMA condones this in it's youth centered organization.

littlecrankshaf

My Feedback: (58)

FWIW he was a typical idiot that needs some validation...very much unlike you aeronica52. I've dealt with those twisted brain idiots many times in my life. If he had any sense what-so-ever he would have known that you could have simply contacted the AMA and they would have shut his club down due to potential freq, conflicts.

BTW Good to have you here giving a position on the perspective of a true individual about the need of AMA. Kudos to you!

aeronca52

BTW Good to have you here giving a position on the perspective of a true individual about the need of AMA. Kudos to you![/QUOTE]

You're very welcome. I try to be objective in the written word.

littlecrankshaf

My Feedback: (58)

Believe me I can tell... true words without agenda or bias when spoken...

Just for fun, here is just a little litmus test for those that say/vote they need the AMA... "Its a shame that so many people are so dependent on the AMA, for their pursuit of the hobby."

Now watch, even though forewarned, there will likely be those that will weigh in give some goofy rationale to twist the meaning of their need of AMA. Seen it, at the very least, a few hundred times now.

Greybeard1

Well, I don't know about your state, but mine also has provision to charter a club with the state itself. For what reason or if there is any benefit, I have no idea, and it's also possible to incorporate a club. How New Jersey operates, I have no idea, and less interest. Just because the AMA is probably powerless to do anything in this case, that doesn't mean it's condoned other than in the minds of people that want to find something wrong and it's all they can find. Unless it was written into the AMA bylaws, they have no grounds to do anything. Go beyond those bylaws, then the law gets its chance, against the AMA. They don't have any real authority, they're a "jawbone" when needed, and beyond that, they're citizens like everyone else, without the right to step into the rights of another citizen. But, the story and now the club down to three, something doesn't ring true, like maybe most of the story is missing. If you disbanded and reformed elsewhere, then the charter was also cancelled. If he was booted out, why is he back? 3 people on a charter? I can't believe any state agency would reserve anything beyond a picnic table for 3 people, and at Bong, with 7 square miles, that would be difficult. If memory serves me, we also had to have ten people to affiliate with AMA, and we had a hard time getting the last two. What's the rest of the story?

Rich.

Greybeard1

Would you rather we be without an organized and recognized voice?

Rich.

littlecrankshaf

My Feedback: (58)

ummm... what I'd rather have is a deflection of your voiced need... I guess your need... because that's your vote.

thatairplaneguy

My Feedback: (50)

I'm not an AMA fan. This from a club officer of many years They've screwed me and my club on a couple occasions.
Prices go up and coverage drops and rules pile up.


They dont have have the full hobbys aspect in mind either IMHO. I mostly fly foamies and don't need a quarter million dollars coverage (not that I'd ever see any of that money paid out in an accident). Yet if I want to fly my 12oz outdoor foamies at the club or my 4ox indoor foamies with the club at a public gym I still have to pay the full price for membership. What damage I could do with those planes I'd pay out of pocket anyway. Why do I need them.


Im im not a fan and after many years of being a member I've become less and less positive minded tward them. I won't be paying for there "no customer service" (to quote Clark Howard) and their pretend insurance coverage any more. My local park an back yard are free to use.


Go go ahead and blast away on why I'm wrong yada yada. Don't care. Won't be following this thread. Just adding my 2cents to the posed question.

Aquila1954

My Feedback: (1)

Hi;
I had voted yes to the AMA. Although I have never been a AMA member yet. I used to fly from the late 70's to late 80's, then quit because I got into computers. Sometimes I regret leaving the hobby. I am going to try and get back into it this Spring though. I am strictly glider/sailplane pilot. I like to search for thermals and take it easy. And being said, I can fly almost anywhere without bothering someone. But I am thinking about joining a club this time around and you have to have a AMA membership to do so around here. When I flew, I always flew with no one was around if some people started to come around I would quit and come back on a different time. I wanted to avoid any accidents. I have a nephew that's wants to get into flying. And I told him the best way is to get someone to teach him and he needed to belong to a club to have that happen, so he will need to have a AMA membership. He told he would teach himself , I told him bad idea.