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Dues increase coming? 1 million spent on government relations.....

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Dues increase coming? 1 million spent on government relations.....

Old 12-06-2015, 10:17 AM
  #2001  
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Originally Posted by HoundDog
CJ: & Others:
Just like the first amendment I may not like what U say (Or your Opinions) but I'll defend your right to say it . That being said:
If U only Join the AMA to have access to a flying site too bad I feel sorry For U. There is so much more to this hobby/sport than going to a place and fly 3 times for a total of maybe a half hour in the air. If U aren't flying "LLectric" that is. There are an estimated 500 thousand people flying some sort of R/C in the USA today. Subtracting the AMA's 180/185 from a half million (Soon to be a Million and a half) we find 170% more people Flying R/C than the whole of the AMA. Now if U or anyone else dislikes the AMA so much, I suggest either U or them run for office in the AMA and change it from within.
On The other Hand is to save your Dues and Join the 170%, soon to be 1.5 million / 180k over 800% of the people flying R/C TOYs. that don't need the AMA and it's expense just to fly TOY airplanes in the USA. If U and others are so unhappy with the AMA (For any reason) then show your disdain by selling all your TOYs to those that Appreciate the AMA and all they do for the Hobby/Sport and Go buy an R/C Sailboat a lawn chair and a 6 pac. Then when U sober up U can wonder where the dumb sail boat went. LOL.
Hound,
I appreciate your concern, but don't understand why you think I am missing out on anything. At the club site, I enjoy the camaraderie with clubmates and everything else that goes with modeling. AMA very rarely gets even passing mention, except in an annual report from the treasurer at a club meeting that AMA charter fees were paid out, and a posted placard displaying the AMA Safety Code. A fair portion of the time I spend there is with noobs, assisting them with intro flights, and instruction if they come back for more. AMA doesn't get mentioned even when I'm in that role. I give them a safety brief, but leave it to others to tell them they have to belong to AMA to fly there.

CJ
Old 12-06-2015, 01:30 PM
  #2002  
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Originally Posted by HoundDog
CJ: & Others:
Just like the first amendment I may not like what U say (Or your Opinions) but I'll defend your right to say it . That being said:
If U only Join the AMA to have access to a flying site too bad I feel sorry For U. There is so much more to this hobby/sport than going to a place and fly 3 times for a total of maybe a half hour in the air. If U aren't flying "LLectric" that is. There are an estimated 500 thousand people flying some sort of R/C in the USA today. Subtracting the AMA's 180/185 from a half million (Soon to be a Million and a half) we find 170% more people Flying R/C than the whole of the AMA. Now if U or anyone else dislikes the AMA so much, I suggest either U or them run for office in the AMA and change it from within.
On The other Hand is to save your Dues and Join the 170%, soon to be 1.5 million / 180k over 800% of the people flying R/C TOYs. that don't need the AMA and it's expense just to fly TOY airplanes in the USA. If U and others are so unhappy with the AMA (For any reason) then show your disdain by selling all your TOYs to those that Appreciate the AMA and all they do for the Hobby/Sport and Go buy an R/C Sailboat a lawn chair and a 6 pac. Then when U sober up U can wonder where the dumb sail boat went. LOL.
Doggie, you nailed it, too funny.
Old 12-06-2015, 01:50 PM
  #2003  
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Originally Posted by HoundDog
CJ: & Others:
Just like the first amendment I may not like what U say(Or your Opinions) but I'll defend your right to say it . That being said:
If U only Join the AMA to have access to a flying site too bad I feel sorry For U. There is so much more to this hobby/sport than going to a place and fly 3 times for a total of maybe a half hour in the air. If U aren't flying "LLectric" that is. There are an estimated 500 thousand people flying some sort of R/C in the USA today. Subtracting the AMA's 180/185 from a half million (Soon to be a Million and a half) we find 170% more people Flying R/C than the whole of the AMA. Now if U or anyone else dislikes the AMA so much, I suggest either U or them run for office in the AMA and change it from within.
On The other Hand is to save your Dues and Join the 170%, soon to be 1.5 million / 180k over 800% of the people flying R/C TOYs. that don't need the AMA and it's expense just to fly TOY airplanes in the USA. If U and others are so unhappy with the AMA (For any reason) then show your disdain by selling all your TOYs to those that Appreciate the AMA and all they do for the Hobby/Sport and Go buy an R/C Sailboat a lawn chair and a 6 pac. Then when U sober up U can wonder where the dumb sail boat went. LOL

Originally Posted by cj_rumley
Hound,
I appreciate your concern, but don't understand why you think I am missing out on anything. At the club site, I enjoy the camaraderie with clubmates and everything else that goes with modeling. AMA very rarely gets even passing mention, except in an annual report from the treasurer at a club meeting that AMA charter fees were paid out, and a posted placard displaying the AMA Safety Code. A fair portion of the time I spend there is with noobs, assisting them with intro flights, and instruction if they come back for more. AMA doesn't get mentioned even when I'm in that role. I give them a safety brief, but leave it to others to tell them they have to belong to AMA to fly there.

CJ
but don't understand why you think I am missing out
First I ment to send it as a PM.
I didn't say U were Missing out U said:

"Will I pay at the AMA toll gate to gain access to my club flying site? Yes. Do tens of thousands of other modelers pay that toll for no reason other than access to a flying site? Yes

Sorry if I did misinterpret "no reason other than "
Old 12-06-2015, 02:03 PM
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Originally Posted by Chris P. Bacon
Yeah, bankruptcy, sounds like the AMA is getting close.
Why don't you ask Franklin, how much public transparency his employer provides?
Irrelevant, unless his boss runs a non profit association in which he is a member.

Originally Posted by Chris P. Bacon
What do you mean they, it's your organization too right?
..
Exactly! And the board or executive council (like president, etc) certainly should go in the direction desired by by the majority, and provide transparency on the finances, since it is indeed our organization.
Old 12-06-2015, 02:38 PM
  #2005  
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Originally Posted by islandflyer
Irrelevant, unless his boss runs a non profit association in which he is a member.

Not irrelevant at all, unless of course you're specifically referring to the minimum required by law. Transparency can be voluntary. Of course, if you think you have a legal case with the AMA then you already know what to do.

Exactly! And the board or executive council (like president, etc) certainly should go in the direction desired by by the majority,

Maybe they did.

and provide transparency on the finances, since it is indeed our organization.

What documented attempts have you made to acquire such information?
..
Old 12-06-2015, 02:45 PM
  #2006  
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Originally Posted by islandflyer
Irrelevant, unless his boss runs a non profit association in which he is a member.



Exactly! And the board or executive council (like president, etc) certainly should go in the direction desired by by the majority, and provide transparency on the finances, since it is indeed our organization.
Who says it's your/our organisation. Sorta like saying "We are the Government"
The Infinitesimal minority thst post/Read here means nothing in the scheme of things.
Again if anyone doesn't like how the AMA is run and the decisions they make then
RUN FOR OFFICE and make a change.
Old 12-06-2015, 02:58 PM
  #2007  
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Originally Posted by HoundDog
Who says it's your/our organisation. Sorta like saying "We are the Government"
The Infinitesimal minority thst post/Read here means nothing in the scheme of things.
Again if anyone doesn't like how the AMA is run and the decisions they make then
RUN FOR OFFICE and make a change.
I think islandflyer should be right in his statement, but I also think, unfortunately, he is doing some wishful thinking.
As for your reply, running for office is probably futile, as it seems the org is primarily being run by senior staff rather than the elected officers. ymmv

Last edited by cj_rumley; 12-06-2015 at 03:55 PM. Reason: sp.
Old 12-06-2015, 05:25 PM
  #2008  
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what a bunch of babies i paid my last 2 yrs iam 84 and from now on ill fly where i feel like it so many places to fly and no one will say a word to you look around
Old 12-06-2015, 05:41 PM
  #2009  
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yeah , you're right oneaew, screw it. Wish I could say that wholeheartedly.
Old 12-06-2015, 08:25 PM
  #2010  
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Originally Posted by Chris P. Bacon
Then folks would be complaining about the costs to administer such transparency.
Transparency does not equal expense. Much of the information they should be collecting already. Are you trying to say they don't know their demographics? Or how they're changing over time? Are you saying they can't figure out how many of these "loss leader" programs turn into repeat dues? If they have metrics, let's see them. What they have already? Why not?
Old 12-07-2015, 04:38 AM
  #2011  
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Originally Posted by franklin_m
Transparency does not equal expense. Much of the information they should be collecting already. Are you trying to say they don't know their demographics? Or how they're changing over time? Are you saying they can't figure out how many of these "loss leader" programs turn into repeat dues? If they have metrics, let's see them. What they have already? Why not?
I'm fairly certain they have all of that information and then some. The simple fact is your not entitled to every little bit of data you want, and you certainly aren't going to get it posting on the internet. If you are so interested in the stats, my best suggestion is to be specific in your requests, and ask the right people. It may a more formal process, ie filling out a request form etc.
Old 12-07-2015, 06:47 AM
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Originally Posted by franklin_m
Transparency does not equal expense. Much of the information they should be collecting already. Are you trying to say they don't know their demographics? Or how they're changing over time? Are you saying they can't figure out how many of these "loss leader" programs turn into repeat dues? If they have metrics, let's see them. What they have already? Why not?
It certainly does. If you're familiar with the process then you already know organizing the data and presenting in a readable and understandable fashion as well as publishing it to the general public is another work effort in and of itself. Not to mention all the follow-on the work effort involved with answering all the questions from the public/membership associated with such data.

When assessing the costs associated with any business process it's important to fully understand all the costs associated with that process.

The AMA is a 501(c)(3) organization and subject to many legal reporting requirements. If you feel you're not receiving the information you're entitled to you're certainly entitled to pursue legal action.
Old 12-07-2015, 01:10 PM
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Originally Posted by rcmiket
Thanks
Mike

Turns out that BestBuy is paying for the membership at a 33% discount. Not sure but I think that is a bit deeper than the hobby shop kickback of the past, I don't know for sure.
Old 12-07-2015, 01:17 PM
  #2014  
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You are correct, I think shops only got 8-10 bucks if that, Rcmike might know different as he works at a shop and they might have been part of that. If what some folks have said though is correct, that these people will never come to clubs and fly, never really be part of the whole club/ama thing, then I might venture a guess to say that this makes good business sense. Sort of like the guys at clubs that pay their full membership and only fly once or twice a year!
Old 12-07-2015, 06:16 PM
  #2015  
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Here's a recap of the hobby shop program. We don't participate.

"• The program is designed to reward hobby-shop owners with $8.00 for each new adult and $6.00 for a senior member, $4.00 for each Introductory Membership (three-month trial) and $4.00 for each new Park Pilot Program member.
Annually each store that participated in the program within a calendar year will be entered into a drawing for $1,000. The drawing will take place December 31.
• Each month all new members including Open, Senior, Park Pilot, 3 Month Trial and Youth will have one entry into a drawing for a $100 gift card to be spent at the store they purchased their AMA membership. AMA will provide the $100 to each store; these gift certificates will not be redeemable for cash.
• While family and youth memberships are available through this hobby shop program, no commissions will be paid for them at this time."

Mike
Old 12-07-2015, 06:30 PM
  #2016  
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Originally Posted by rcmiket
Here's a recap of the hobby shop program. We don't participate.

"• The program is designed to reward hobby-shop owners with $8.00 for each new adult and $6.00 for a senior member, $4.00 for each Introductory Membership (three-month trial) and $4.00 for each new Park Pilot Program member.
Annually each store that participated in the program within a calendar year will be entered into a drawing for $1,000. The drawing will take place December 31.
• Each month all new members including Open, Senior, Park Pilot, 3 Month Trial and Youth will have one entry into a drawing for a $100 gift card to be spent at the store they purchased their AMA membership. AMA will provide the $100 to each store; these gift certificates will not be redeemable for cash.
• While family and youth memberships are available through this hobby shop program, no commissions will be paid for them at this time."

Mike
Why don't you participate? Isn't it the right thing to do?
Old 12-07-2015, 06:32 PM
  #2017  
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Originally Posted by porcia83
You are correct, I think shops only got 8-10 bucks if that, Rcmike might know different as he works at a shop and they might have been part of that. If what some folks have said though is correct, that these people will never come to clubs and fly, never really be part of the whole club/ama thing, then I might venture a guess to say that this makes good business sense. Sort of like the guys at clubs that pay their full membership and only fly once or twice a year!
My Question is WHY? WHY would these DRONE (Quad) Flyers Especially want to join the AMA so they can pay some AMA Club MONEY for membership where they aren't really welcome by the O'l Farts flying TRADITIONAL Model air craft. Especially those that do DRONES with FPV. When U've seen one corn/bean field U've seen them all. Then there is the question of being told they have to fly a pattern with out being allowed to HOVER over the runway cause some O'L Fart thinks they need the runway for their high speed passes But everybody else can't do high speed passes over the runway because the club rules say all high speed passes will be done on the OTHER side of the runway. These guys don't need the expense and bother just to be regimented by any club rules.
I guess I'm just asking "What's in it for them?"
Old 12-07-2015, 06:38 PM
  #2018  
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Originally Posted by Chris P. Bacon
Why don't you participate? Isn't it the right thing to do?
When we give them the club info we give them the AMA info. I'm saving the AMA money.

Mike
Old 12-07-2015, 08:29 PM
  #2019  
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Originally Posted by HoundDog
My Question is WHY? WHY would these DRONE (Quad) Flyers Especially want to join the AMA so they can pay some AMA Club MONEY for membership where they aren't really welcome by the O'l Farts flying TRADITIONAL Model air craft. Especially those that do DRONES with FPV. When U've seen one corn/bean field U've seen them all. Then there is the question of being told they have to fly a pattern with out being allowed to HOVER over the runway cause some O'L Fart thinks they need the runway for their high speed passes But everybody else can't do high speed passes over the runway because the club rules say all high speed passes will be done on the OTHER side of the runway. These guys don't need the expense and bother just to be regimented by any club rules.
I guess I'm just asking "What's in it for them?"
Gosh, I suspect there are lots of reasons these folks want to join a club. I can given some specific examples, but I suspect there are more out there, would be nice to hear from some of those folks.

One club I belong to has a good relationship with a toy store. The manager of the RC dept is a member of our club. He promotes the AMA (and makes his store some money), and gets a new member into our club (more members usually means good things right?). Win win so far. He takes care of the customers immediate needs, also benefits our club, and wouldn't you know, has a new customer that comes to him for future sales and service. That right there is called networking, requires that thing we've mentioned before called people skills, and really benefits all involved. Good news sometimes travels fast, and when that new customer/member talks to his friends, well guess what happens. Both entities enjoy the benefits. Remarkable eh? So along the concept of people skills, and news traveling fast, the club plays a vital role too. Is the club as you note, a bunch of 'ol farts flying a pattern with their Warbirds and J-3s (I added that last part). If that is what they are, and the membership is happy with that, fantastic. If they are losing members and wonder why nobody is joining anymore (and blaming kids and their lack of focus and they won't "build" and spend all day on computers) and complain about that...well that's another story. Or are they a club that opens it's arms to new members, and all disciplines of flying? I've visited clubs of both types. Guess which ones are more vibrant, and fun to fly at, and have no trouble keeping members, and have great events...etc etc etc.

Our club allows all types of flying. About 5 year back the old guard decided to boot out helis based on rumors and speculation, and even used supposed near misses and mid airs at other clubs as a reason to ban them. They played some games in doing so, but got exactly what they wanted, helis were out. Along with that went about 40 members. Oh, they were the ones who worked the events, always chipped in and helped out, did the cooking and parking and donations for raffle items. Poof....they were gone. That debacle was the reason I decided to get more involved and eventually run for office in the club, after being a noob to the hobby and the club of about 2 years. It took another two years, but after lots of hard work by many folks, the helis came back. They are a great addition to the club, and we were fortunate to bring them back, and give them their own flight line. MR of all types are welcome to fly there as well. Lots of folks in the club have fixed wing, helis, and quads. How silly would it be to tell them they can only fly 2 out of the three.

One big reason we have had at least 3 people who only flew MR join is the club itself, to have a place to go, have fun, learn how to fly and fly safely, and be part of a group that likes to have fun. There is a huge social component. Sure, some might get bored of flying there, but that could be said of anyone.

And just to be clear, clubs and their leadership have every right in the world to dictate their own destiny, to include or exclude whatever they want, as long as that is what the membership wants. If not, those that want change should step up and get involved, and work to effect that change they want. Or, join another club.

Oh, we fly gliders too! Because why not.

Last edited by porcia83; 12-07-2015 at 09:01 PM.
Old 12-07-2015, 08:55 PM
  #2020  
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Originally Posted by rcmiket
When we give them the club info we give them the AMA info. I'm saving the AMA money.

Mike
So you take their money for the sale and hand them a pamphlet? Sounds inviting. How exactly are you saving money? Did you really save money if that person becomes a life-long AMA member?

What ever happened to:

Old 12-07-2015, 10:30 PM
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Originally Posted by porcia83
Gosh, I suspect there are lots of reasons these folks want to join a club. I can given some specific examples, but I suspect there are more out there, would be nice to hear from some of those folks.

One club I belong to has a good relationship with a toy store. The manager of the RC dept is a member of our club. He promotes the AMA (and makes his store some money), and gets a new member into our club (more members usually means good things right?). Win win so far. He takes care of the customers immediate needs, also benefits our club, and wouldn't you know, has a new customer that comes to him for future sales and service. That right there is called networking, requires that thing we've mentioned before called people skills, and really benefits all involved. Good news sometimes travels fast, and when that new customer/member talks to his friends, well guess what happens. Both entities enjoy the benefits. Remarkable eh? So along the concept of people skills, and news traveling fast, the club plays a vital role too. Is the club as you note, a bunch of 'ol farts flying a pattern with their Warbirds and J-3s (I added that last part). If that is what they are, and the membership is happy with that, fantastic. If they are losing members and wonder why nobody is joining anymore (and blaming kids and their lack of focus and they won't "build" and spend all day on computers) and complain about that...well that's another story. Or are they a club that opens it's arms to new members, and all disciplines of flying? I've visited clubs of both types. Guess which ones are more vibrant, and fun to fly at, and have no trouble keeping members, and have great events...etc etc etc.

Our club allows all types of flying. About 5 year back the old guard decided to boot out helis based on rumors and speculation, and even used supposed near misses and mid airs at other clubs as a reason to ban them. They played some games in doing so, but got exactly what they wanted, helis were out. Along with that went about 40 members. Oh, they were the ones who worked the events, always chipped in and helped out, did the cooking and parking and donations for raffle items. Poof....they were gone. That debacle was the reason I decided to get more involved and eventually run for office in the club, after being a noob to the hobby and the club of about 2 years. It took another two years, but after lots of hard work by many folks, the helis came back. They are a great addition to the club, and we were fortunate to bring them back, and give them their own flight line. MR of all types are welcome to fly there as well. Lots of folks in the club have fixed wing, helis, and quads. How silly would it be to tell them they can only fly 2 out of the three.

One big reason we have had at least 3 people who only flew MR join is the club itself, to have a place to go, have fun, learn how to fly and fly safely, and be part of a group that likes to have fun. There is a huge social component. Sure, some might get bored of flying there, but that could be said of anyone.

And just to be clear, clubs and their leadership have every right in the world to dictate their own destiny, to include or exclude whatever they want, as long as that is what the membership wants. If not, those that want change should step up and get involved, and work to effect that change they want. Or, join another club.

Oh, we fly gliders too! Because why not.
Gosh, I suspect there are lots of reasons these folks want to join a club.
Really?????
Then why if all these people that might want to join a club Don't? There 170% more people flying some sort of R/C not in clubs than there are in all of the AMA? Every time I meet someone buying some sort of Flying R/C Toy I ask where they fly and about 2 out of 3 always say. OH down in this basin or out in the desert or in some park or on my farm, ETC. Then I ask them if they know about any of the many local R/C Clubs and fields. Maybe half do but will say we have more fun where we don't have to follow rules or They don't like us cause they've heard clubs are snotty, or another one it costs too much and i can fly (U Name it) for FREE. Again Just asking.
Old 12-08-2015, 03:38 AM
  #2022  
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Originally Posted by HoundDog
Gosh, I suspect there are lots of reasons these folks want to join a club.
Really?????
Then why if all these people that might want to join a club Don't? There 170% more people flying some sort of R/C not in clubs than there are in all of the AMA? Every time I meet someone buying some sort of Flying R/C Toy I ask where they fly and about 2 out of 3 always say. OH down in this basin or out in the desert or in some park or on my farm, ETC. Then I ask them if they know about any of the many local R/C Clubs and fields. Maybe half do but will say we have more fun where we don't have to follow rules or They don't like us cause they've heard clubs are snotty, or another one it costs too much and i can fly (U Name it) for FREE. Again Just asking.
You gotta stop hangin around those hobby shops talking up strangers dude...... I'm pretty sure there might be as many if not more people flying by themselves or at places other than "ama" clubs. It's a personal choice I suppose. Our geographic locations might have something to do with it. Here in New England there isn't a lot of open field area, or desert one can pop off to and have some flying time. Lots of homes and strip malls and factories and Dunkin Donuts have taken up lots of space. As for rumors about clubs, well I suppose that's something that happens everywhere. I heard the same about clubs here too...even experienced it once at a club I visited with my son. I brought my son down to check the place out and you would have thought I was going to rob the place, they were rude as could be. And they were on town property as well, acting as if they owned the joint. I joined another club, and that club today continues to lose membership and wonders why they aren't growing. Not friendly, and anti heli as well. Guess how they feel about MR.
Old 12-08-2015, 04:46 AM
  #2023  
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Originally Posted by Chris P. Bacon
So you take their money for the sale and hand them a pamphlet? Sounds inviting. How exactly are you saving money? Did you really save money if that person becomes a life-long AMA member?

What ever happened to:
Who said we don't hand them the information? We just don't bother submitting paperwork to the AMA using that program. Here's the scenario.
A individual walks in the store and asks about flying models. We discuss the the options. We talk about the local clubs were they can get flight instruction. Our club does not make anyone join the AMA or pay club dues until they come fly with us ( flights done with a instructor) to be sure the hobby is for them.
If the individual finds the hobby is next step is AMA ( there's a link on our club website) to do this. Then lastly Club Dues. Hitting a newbie with all that expense right off the bat will kill a prospective flyer at the point of sale. I'm sure every club is different but we are not by any means a normal club.

Now since the AMA does not have to issue our store a "kickback" we're saving the AMA (us) money.

Clear enough?
Mike

Last edited by rcmiket; 12-08-2015 at 06:22 AM.
Old 12-08-2015, 06:18 AM
  #2024  
HoundDog
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Originally Posted by rcmiket
Who said we hand them the information? We just don't bother submitting paperwork to the AMA using that program. Here's the scenario.
A individual walks in the store and asks about flying models. We discuss the the options. We talk about the local clubs were they can get flight instruction. Our club does not make anyone join the AMA or pay club dues until they come fly with us ( flights done with a instructor) to be sure the hobby is for them.
If the individual finds the hobby is next step is AMA ( there's a link on our club website) to do this. Then lastly Club Dues. Hitting a newbie with all that expense right off the bat will kill a prospective flyer at the point of sale. I'm sure every club is different but we are not by any means a normal club.

Now since the AMA does not have to issue our store a "kickback" we're saving the AMA (us) money.

Clear enough?
Mike
At least 4 of the 5 club to which I pay dues to (Weather I'm Active or not) uses the AMA Intro Pilot system. First I explain the costs AMA/ Club Dues, Expense of the Plane and support equipment and that it's not a cheep hobby/sport.If a person seems interested enough we will even supply the Plane Fuel,/Batteries, Radios (Buddy box) and an Instructor too for the 60 days of the Intro Pilot Program allows. We have a few people take us up on the offer and some end up joining the AMA/Club and continue flying. Others (Most) have other priorities or don't care for the hobby for one reason or another. There's always a few that show up with Little bitty planes someone got them for Xmas so January is a little busier I'd guess. Most of the people I've trained have at least for the first year joined and kept with it, Again like anything there any number that say OH that sounds great then U never see them again. Have U found out that most adults won't even try it when U offer to let them fly on a buddy box right now? I love to teach the youngsters. Especially the 4 to 7 year olds. I can reach around them and put my fingers over theirs and show them it's not an XBox and there is a finesse to it. A couple of years ago there was a 4 year old with grandma. I explained the radio and showed him by holding the sticks over his fingers' Well this youngster was a Natural in just 3 times around the pattern he almost mastered it. After going through 2 or 3 loops he actually could do it by him self Rolls too. Man I hope he was able to keep it up when he went home. Greatest feeling in the world. Now it's a lot more frustration to teach any of us O'l Geezers.
Old 12-08-2015, 06:57 AM
  #2025  
Chris P. Bacon
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Originally Posted by rcmiket
Who said we don't hand them the information?
Mike
Originally Posted by rcmiket
When we give them the club info we give them the AMA info.

Mike
Yeah, you're saving the AMA money.

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