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Insurance - AMA dues - Are we paying our fair share

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Insurance - AMA dues - Are we paying our fair share

Old 05-27-2015, 08:08 AM
  #26  
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Originally Posted by k3 valley flyer View Post
I know of 3 fatalities in the last several years from rotor type aircraft, none from warbirds. Your assumptions about which have the greater risks are ridiculous.
So I guess you are fine with high risk modelers being subsidized with lower risk modelers' dues???
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Old 05-27-2015, 08:24 AM
  #27  
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Wow there were some really good thoughts expressed here and some that were, well you read them. One was maybe it should be based on weight. That would be one way to go and seperate light weight warbirds from the scale warbirds. The only problem is adding the Giant 3D pilots. As a group, has proven to be in the safest groups in the AMA. It is due to their scale level is so high. Before you start the hate typing I am not a giant 3Der. Out of my confort zone. Never fly anything you cant afford to crash.

To be fair I thing you could only teir off by groups unless the AMA keeps it the same where the safer flyers pay the rate of the higher risk flyer. Me, I dont mind paying my fair share but maybe I should not have to pay for a part of someone else.

There was one thing talked about the risk of the 3D. If you watch the video to the end you would have seen what happens when a 3Der goes down. It is down where they are were flying. Not moving forward out of control into areas where people are located. Video tells what happens.
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Old 05-27-2015, 09:19 AM
  #28  
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Originally Posted by raptureboy View Post
Does anyone even know of someone who has had to use their supposed AMA insurance? I think y'all have been trolled. How in the world would the AMA ever begin to regulate what you decide to fly at anyone time?
Been a member of the AMA since the mid sixties and yes I know of several AMA members who have filed claims, all were very satisfied with the result.
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Old 05-27-2015, 09:26 AM
  #29  
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Of dues were based just on risk of insured, then why on earth would the AMA offer discounts to seniors and youth? Insurance companies do the exact opposite.
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Old 05-27-2015, 09:39 AM
  #30  
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If a tiered system went into place it would likely be based on speed or weight etc, I can see where two planes could be identical but one could be faster than the other or heavier
because of engine used and /or how it was built and the install setup. I can see where this type of situation could lead to problems in controlling who flies what and in ins coverage.
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Old 05-27-2015, 09:39 AM
  #31  
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"It isn't fair!" The three most disgusting words I hear, especialy from kids, and those who act like them. I like my dad's response so many years ago: "Where on your birth certificate does it say life is fair?
What are we talking about? A $20 difference in insurance costs across the members plus and additional cost to all members evenly just to management it? Geez, people pizz and moan about the dumbest things.
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Old 05-27-2015, 10:07 AM
  #32  
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You have a point on large Heli aircraft. Yes a higher risk than warbirds. I agree but you are saying your OK with paying your fair share and then part of their insurance?

I think many flyers fly many type of aircraft and your insurance could be based on the highest risk aircraft. So if you have a few park flyers, a multi rotor, giant 3D and some profiles you stay at the standard rate, If you have few park flyers, a multi rotor, giant 3D, warbirds and some profiles then you would be in the higher risk group.
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Old 05-27-2015, 10:17 AM
  #33  
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Originally Posted by crash99 View Post
It should be based on if your flying aircraft larger than the park pilot will allow, and then if you fly a warbird. Did that answer you Q?
What makes a warbird more hazardous? We all have the same coverage. So you think that if you can take more money from the other guy, then you will not have to pay as much? Kinda reminds me of some taxation arguments I have had.

Pay your dues, and go fly.
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Old 05-27-2015, 10:23 AM
  #34  
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Well we already have a teir membership and it works just fine for what I see. Increased overall membership is what I was told but I dont know if that is a fact. So if we take that concept " A $20 difference in insurance costs across the members plus and additional cost to all members evenly just to management it? Geez, people pizz and moan about the dumbest things." Well some might think paying a higher membership is OK.

Will the AMA loose members if they would raise the membership up by $20 as our friend above said? I would say yes.

Next time your in the store go ahead and pay for the food for the person next in line. Now thats silly. Thats the same as calling it dumb for not wanting to over pay for my insurance. Let those guys that fly the heavy warbirds pay their fair share of the risk. Risk is how insurance is based right?
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Old 05-27-2015, 10:43 AM
  #35  
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Why are warbirds a higher risk? Great Q. In physics, mass is a property of a physical body which determines the strength of its mutual gravitational attraction to other bodies, its resistance to being accelerated by a force, and in the theory of relativity gives the mass–energy content of a system.

Warbirds has the largest mass per square inch of lift. A mass will stay in motion until a stronger force stops it. 3D flight Gravity if the force that stop motion. for warbirds its gravity and ground that stop forward motion. We all pray people are not the force but the videos out on the web shows other wise. It is what it is.

If the cause flying skill or building skill? I can only say accross the country new pilots seek out the 3D pilots to maiden their new airplanes more than any other pilots.
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Old 05-27-2015, 11:25 AM
  #36  
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Maybe folks in the southern part of the country should pay more since their flying season is longer than those in the northern part of the country. Maybe our dues should be based on our age and we should pay more as we age since our reflexes slow down increasing the probability of having an accident. Maybe we should just pay based on how much we fly on a per minute basis so those who fly the most pay the most and those who were too busy to fly all season don't pay as much. You know, make it an honor system and just send it in at the end of the year. Maybe folks who fly at higher elevations should pay more since the air is thinner increasing the probability of accident. The same for folks who live in windy locations. Those who have flying fields facing the sun should pay more too. Noise is a distraction while flying so noisy aircraft should also pay more. Lipos are dangerous too so anyone using Lipos should pay more.

Yeah, that's the ticket! Maybe I'll save a whopping $2-3/year on my dues!
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Old 05-27-2015, 11:46 AM
  #37  
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Originally Posted by crash99 View Post
Why are warbirds a higher risk? Great Q. In physics, mass is a property of a physical body which determines the strength of its mutual gravitational attraction to other bodies, its resistance to being accelerated by a force, and in the theory of relativity gives the mass–energy content of a system.

Warbirds has the largest mass per square inch of lift. A mass will stay in motion until a stronger force stops it. 3D flight Gravity if the force that stop motion. for warbirds its gravity and ground that stop forward motion. We all pray people are not the force but the videos out on the web shows other wise. It is what it is.

If the cause flying skill or building skill? I can only say accross the country new pilots seek out the 3D pilots to maiden their new airplanes more than any other pilots.
What make a warbird a higher risk? They make different size warbirds from the little parkflyer up to the 50 cc size and beyond where do you draw the line?
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Old 05-27-2015, 11:55 AM
  #38  
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Right on Rich. You are paying for AMA membership, insurance is just a benefit of that membership.

Pay your dang dues, quit your whining and go fly.

Mike
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Old 05-27-2015, 12:07 PM
  #39  
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Hey crash 99: Any Dummy that would ask a Question like"Insurance - AMA dues - Are we paying our fair share"

should be placed in a straight jacket and given his own Rubber Room. On the other hand if U so think U need to pay more for your AMA experience. There is always many ways, U can DONATE all U own, to the AMA. I'm sure they would be delighted if U were to DONATE your life savings to the Cause. Now as far as stupid questions they deserve a stupid answer. I sincerely hope U get them.
OH maybe U should ask your Home owners if U are paying enough because U have a very DANGEROUS Hobby Flying R/C Toys that have been know to "KILL" People.

Man this is where all the "TROLLS" have diapered too. Good Luck with this one Guys.


Hound Dog OVER & OUT.
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Old 05-27-2015, 12:10 PM
  #40  
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Which warbird? You must be a teenager! lol
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Old 05-27-2015, 12:21 PM
  #41  
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Old guy's are high risk also, but get a discount? go figure!!
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Old 05-27-2015, 12:28 PM
  #42  
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Originally Posted by crash99 View Post
Well we already have a teir membership and it works just fine for what I see. Increased overall membership is what I was told but I dont know if that is a fact. So if we take that concept " A $20 difference in insurance costs across the members plus and additional cost to all members evenly just to management it? Geez, people pizz and moan about the dumbest things." Well some might think paying a higher membership is OK.

Will the AMA loose members if they would raise the membership up by $20 as our friend above said? I would say yes.

Next time your in the store go ahead and pay for the food for the person next in line. Now thats silly. Thats the same as calling it dumb for not wanting to over pay for my insurance. Let those guys that fly the heavy warbirds pay their fair share of the risk. Risk is how insurance is based right?
So am I to assume that you feel $58/yr is too much for you to pay for a $2M liability policy on a high risk activity? I can assure you I pay far more for the significantly smaller policy on my home and vehicles, without the benefits of being a member of an aviation community and a fairly decent magazine.

Sometimes, the system works just fine as it is. IMO, the perceived savings (to you) of even more tiers would be soon eaten up in administration and enforcement, resulting in higher dues all around. Go to any AMA club meeting and you'll hear all sorts of great ideas, with those putting them forth with no idea or intention of how to properly implement said ideas. As an ex-club officer, I often put it on people that had those ideas - come up with a written proposal of how the club will implement and enforce this new regulation. Generally, all you heard was crickets.

FWIW, those that are the greatest danger are the newbie pilots, those that are freshly signed off and get ahead of themselves, and the old codgers.

Last edited by Hemikiller; 05-27-2015 at 12:30 PM.
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Old 05-27-2015, 12:38 PM
  #43  
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crash99 knows what? Some absurd assumption about risk.. ? Last death I personally have knowledge of was caused by a .60 sized sport plane.
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Old 05-27-2015, 01:06 PM
  #44  
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Originally Posted by crash99 View Post
Wow there were some really good thoughts expressed here and some that were, well you read them. One was maybe it should be based on weight. That would be one way to go and seperate light weight warbirds from the scale warbirds. The only problem is adding the Giant 3D pilots. As a group, has proven to be in the safest groups in the AMA. It is due to their scale level is so high. Before you start the hate typing I am not a giant 3Der. Out of my confort zone. Never fly anything you cant afford to crash.

To be fair I thing you could only teir off by groups unless the AMA keeps it the same where the safer flyers pay the rate of the higher risk flyer. Me, I dont mind paying my fair share but maybe I should not have to pay for a part of someone else.

There was one thing talked about the risk of the 3D. If you watch the video to the end you would have seen what happens when a 3Der goes down. It is down where they are were flying. Not moving forward out of control into areas where people are located. Video tells what happens.
Where are you coming up with the data to back up this statement, one which you've made a couple of times now? I can't question this if presented as an opinion, but there's just nothing to show this as fact. As the old lady at Wendy's used to say....Where's the Beef (or in this case...proof). Since when are 3D planes (of any size) more scale or detailed? At best some of the IMAC planes have a fake gauge panel and a pilot. I've seen far more civilian aircraft with more more detail however it's normally the warbirds that take that cake.

Originally Posted by crash99 View Post
Why are warbirds a higher risk? Great Q. In physics, mass is a property of a physical body which determines the strength of its mutual gravitational attraction to other bodies, its resistance to being accelerated by a force, and in the theory of relativity gives the mass–energy content of a system.

Warbirds has the largest mass per square inch of lift. A mass will stay in motion until a stronger force stops it. 3D flight Gravity if the force that stop motion. for warbirds its gravity and ground that stop forward motion. We all pray people are not the force but the videos out on the web shows other wise. It is what it is.

If the cause flying skill or building skill? I can only say accross the country new pilots seek out the 3D pilots to maiden their new airplanes more than any other pilots.
You seem fixated on the size and weight of the plane. And more assumptions about what pilots across the country are doing. At the clubs I belong to it's the seasoned more experienced warbird guys that get asked to maiden planes. The size and weight of the plane are not predictors or overall factors on the extent of damage that can be done. It's the accident scenario that will determine that.

Two years ago a well respected member of our club maidened a scratch built Sig Senorita, After a couple of patterns it took off, absolutely no control. Went out of our field, over a senior complex, across numerous roads (some of which have scale aircraft and heli engines hauled on them), close to a highway, then ran out of fuel and landed in the backyard of an empty house for sale. The overgrown grass and weeds certainly helped out, the plane had virtually no damage on it. When a realtor came to show the house they found the plane. Pilots info was inside, and he got it back, a year and half later. That great gentle 5 plus pound sunday flier could have caused millions of dollars in damage had it gone down in the wrong place at the wrong time.
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Old 05-27-2015, 01:14 PM
  #45  
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why not just pay $20 a year for ama membership and you buy the liability insurance geez some people would ***** even if they got hung by a gold rope
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Old 05-27-2015, 01:37 PM
  #46  
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It's SPEED that kills!!! its ... meaning the speed is the important factor vs the mass (weight)..
So a relatively small, fast plane can be, and is.. very dangerous..
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Old 05-27-2015, 01:56 PM
  #47  
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ugh....MATH !!!!
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Old 05-27-2015, 02:31 PM
  #48  
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Originally Posted by porcia83 View Post
ugh....MATH !!!!
I don't like math either. Now the problem is, and the current problem is these new Drones that are flying around, over people, and in glide paths of full scale aircraft. Did you ever hear of a R/C War plane getting involved with full scale aircraft. I don't think so. At least I have not heard of even a sport plane or 3D plane involved either???????
These types of people ( Drone Flyers) are creating a major problems with the FAA and the AMA. Yes ,Drone flyers should pay more because they are creating more regulation with their carelessness.
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Old 05-27-2015, 02:32 PM
  #49  
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First off, I have seen some pretty horrible set ups when it comes to some 3D planes so the idea that they are professionals and the planes are set up as so is not true by any means. I have seen 3D planes where the geometry on the linkages is so out and the servos are binding so bad it's ridiculous. But, the guys still fly it because it "works" for him. That said, I have seen bad set ups with all types of models. It is all based on the individual and his/her abilities to build, set up and control their airplane. Simply go to the videos of any Top Gun and watch some of the horrible landings and so forth. These guys spend hundreds of hours building and taking care of every detail to make sure the planes are perfect and then they can't fly them to save their lives. Watch videos from a 3D event and you will see something stupid done by somebody. Not everyone is going to be "perfect" all the time. Just leave the AMA alone. You have a choice not to join if you think you are being unfairly charged by the rate.

Jason
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Old 05-27-2015, 02:58 PM
  #50  
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You will unlikely see a $20 rebate for being a 'low risk flyer' - only a small portion of the AMA dues is being used for insurance purposes, there are many other fixed costs. it just wouldn't cover their costs.
What is missing here is true statistics about the insurance claims of the past few years. To be fair - not only the aircraft class, but also the pilot should be evaluated.

While I agree with the basic idea, it is not practical, just more complicated, in the end we'd all pay more for the extra work AMA had to do.

I think it is great that there are some many ways to enjoy this hobby, I do not have any large war birds and no 3d planes, but I am fine with paying the same dues.
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