Insurance - AMA dues - Are we paying our fair share
05-30-2015, 06:11 PM
#126
Have you ever been involved in a accident????? AMA is just like buying uninsured insurance those that have insurance this is just paying twice for those that don't. You must not know how AMA works first you have hope who ever is flying has home owners or renters insurance. If they don't then your home owners insurance has to pay. So AMA really never has to pay. Unless you max out both there and yours or both parties insurance they might step in. So I pay just to fly at my AMA field. I m glad that the man who flew his plane into my brand new 2 week old toy hauler had home owners they wrote me a $20,000. plus check. Otherwise I would have to claim his fault accident on my home owners and max my insurance before AMA steps in. So really if you have insurance you pretty much have to kill someone before AMA has to pay.
A Jet go through both sides and the roof then Explode and burn it up?
05-30-2015, 06:26 PM
#127
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Wow had to edit post its amazing some of the people making comments cant even read those should be the ones paying more. There are idiots in every hobby.
Last edited by william-RCU; 05-31-2015 at 08:39 AM. Reason: idiot comments off track
05-30-2015, 07:39 PM
#128
I was at a glider tow and one of the tow planes took out one side of trailer when the guy set up his plane he did not rebind he landed with engine still on shut his transmitter off to make adjustments the plane went full throttle took off by itself I hit at full speed about 3 feet off the ground engine was in middle of toy hauler inside. Brand new 2 weeks old had not even peed in the toilet yet that was the part that upset me the most other than he missed my dads head by less than a foot he could not move he is paralyzed in wheel chair.
I probably should delete this but what the heck.
05-30-2015, 10:19 PM
#129
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I m glad that the man who flew his plane into my brand new 2 week old toy hauler had home owners they wrote me a $20,000. plus check. Otherwise I would have to claim his fault accident on my home owners and max my insurance before AMA steps in. So really if you have insurance you pretty much have to kill someone before AMA has to pay.
In the case you were involved in if the damage exceeded the other guy's HO policy, then AMA would pick up the difference.
05-31-2015, 03:15 AM
#130
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You can talk about it till the cows come home, but if you try to get any insurance out side of ama you could not afford to buy it!!! Now with that said, just fly less than 2 lbs. pay for park-flyer rates or just pay your dues & shutup> If you Just my thoughts only bought the mag. you would pay at least haft of your dues. Or if you are in for the long run, buy a life membership. Best deal out there. Just my thoughts. Harold A.M.A.1242
05-31-2015, 03:51 AM
#131
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You can talk about it till the cows come home, but if you try to get any insurance out side of ama you could not afford to buy it!!! Now with that said, just fly less than 2 lbs. pay for park-flyer rates or just pay your dues & shutup> If you Just my thoughts only bought the mag. you would pay at least haft of your dues. Or if you are in for the long run, buy a life membership. Best deal out there. Just my thoughts. Harold A.M.A.1242
AMA insurance works best at subsidizing the Mr. Money pockets when he pulls out that giant P-51 that he flies like crap or the "I don't have any other insurance" guys.
It really is all of us guys in the middle paving the road... But that's perfectly acceptable now-a-days. Its the sizzle that sells...
05-31-2015, 05:12 AM
#132
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I guess those burns at a jet event didn't happen. I guess there hasn't been a member killed by his own helicopter. I guess the increase in AMA insurance claims, year over year at a rate well above growth in membership, isn't real either. And how many near misses or injuries go un-reported? In safety management programs, those near misses and minor injuries are called leading indicators. Small things that help you understand and prevent big things. But you can't learn from them if they're not systematically reported and shared. AMA has no such system in place. When there is a mishap, and whether it's a drone into an engine of a commercial airliner or a made for mass media injury at a sanctioned event, the change to our hobby will be swift and severe. We could try and prevent those things. But then again, why bother, as "How many events are held every year with no issue whatsoever?"
Some context perhaps?
Injuries happen, have in the past, and will in the future (hence the need/benefit of insurance of course). Did the guy get burned, sure he did. Were there rules in place at this event, of course. Did any rule stop this from happening, of course not. Can there be any reasonable rule, short of not flying, that could stop this type of accident from happening. No. Nor would increasing or decreasing insurance rates make any difference.
The heli issue was tragic of course, but again not sure that a "rule" would preclude that from happening again. That appeared to be an error of judgement on the pilot's part that turned out to be costly, but only to the pilot. That type of flying isn't the best way to go, but something many pilots do, but I've never seen anything like that at an event.
So you have two instances, one years old now, that you can bring out as examples. In the time span from the heli event (almost two years) to the crash/burn, to even the B-29....how many sanctioned events, and even non sanctioned events have been held. And of those, how many injuries have been reported? And please don't say "well how many haven't been?"...that's not a valid argument.
Where is your data to validate that insurance claims have increased year over year disproportionate to the growth in membership? Numbers please. Would love to see them for the past say two or three years specifically.
How many near misses go unreported....a systematic mechanism for reporting......you can't be serious?
I get your crusade for safety (and even data), it's admirable and I don't think there is anyone out there that doesn't want this hobby to be as safe as possible. This will never be a accident/injury free hobby, ever. Piling on rules and regs and increasing insurance isn't going to stop that, ever. I respect your experience in the field of safety/regulation/investigation etc, but to advocate some type of reporting scheme for near misses and minor injuries is just unrealistic. Could it be put in place sure. At what cost, and to what benefit. And this isn't the same cost/benefit analysis that a Ford actuary made during the Pinto debacle, I mean what would we learn? The "near miss" issue alone, virtually impossible to codify, and then analyze. Would it be a strech to say that almost all conclusions would be "don't fly close to each other". We need a rule. a form to fill out, and a committee to figure that one out? People complain about AMA dues now, imagine the bureaucracy that system would put in place.
05-31-2015, 07:08 AM
#133
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Well, let's talk about the risks. Many here think it is from big planes and want those pilots to pay more. Here are some situations:
.40 powered warbird racer hits worker on course. Man died.
.40 powered high wing trainer lost control in the sun, hit the pilot and he died.
Two helicopter deaths - both from flying too close one killed the pilot, one killed the instructor.
Based on these incidents .40 powered planes and helis are the most dangerous things out there.
BTW - the most common medical claim paid by the AMA is for fingers in props. Maybe power pilots should pay more than glider pilots??
.40 powered warbird racer hits worker on course. Man died.
.40 powered high wing trainer lost control in the sun, hit the pilot and he died.
Two helicopter deaths - both from flying too close one killed the pilot, one killed the instructor.
Based on these incidents .40 powered planes and helis are the most dangerous things out there.
BTW - the most common medical claim paid by the AMA is for fingers in props. Maybe power pilots should pay more than glider pilots??
05-31-2015, 07:20 AM
#134
Well, let's talk about the risks. Many here think it is from big planes and want those pilots to pay more. Here are some situations:
.40 powered warbird racer hits worker on course. Man died.
.40 powered high wing trainer lost control in the sun, hit the pilot and he died.
Two helicopter deaths - both from flying too close one killed the pilot, one killed the instructor.
Based on these incidents .40 powered planes and helis are the most dangerous things out there.
BTW - the most common medical claim paid by the AMA is for fingers in props. Maybe power pilots should pay more than glider pilots??
.40 powered warbird racer hits worker on course. Man died.
.40 powered high wing trainer lost control in the sun, hit the pilot and he died.
Two helicopter deaths - both from flying too close one killed the pilot, one killed the instructor.
Based on these incidents .40 powered planes and helis are the most dangerous things out there.
BTW - the most common medical claim paid by the AMA is for fingers in props. Maybe power pilots should pay more than glider pilots??
Maybe every one should pay 200 or 300 per year and the AMA insurance becomes primary. Or just like autos each plane U own must have it's own insurance policy. Also it might be possible to get HULL insurance like full scale.
OH Crap let's go back to basics. "If it ain't Broke don't fix it". or "Don't mess with successes" or "Leave well enough alone" and finally " OH He]] here comes another senior moment. Anyways all That works for me and probably 99% of AMA members. Now that would be only a guess.
Last edited by HoundDog; 05-31-2015 at 07:24 AM.
05-31-2015, 07:23 AM
#135
So, if you look in members only documents at the "Paid Claims / Legal Expenses" line in both 500-C and 500-D, you'll see that there's been a RRS% increase in that expense - formula used is (2014-2013)/2013. The 0714 EC minutes from 19 July 2014 state that over 2013/2014 membership went up by X%; paid membership went up Y%. While the 2014 revenue numbers haven't been published yet, those same minutes said they went up by a specific amount. So if you take the 2013 revenue number from the financial reports (also in members only documents), add the amount quoted in the minutes, and then do the same delta percent calculation above, you'll see that revenue went up by Z%.
So, let's summarize, 2014 vs. 2013 based on the data in the locations detailed above: "Claims/Legal Expenses" up at a rate (by percent) two orders of magnitude faster than the growth in paid membership, and two and a half orders of magnitude faster than the growth in revenue.
05-31-2015, 08:20 AM
#136
I was at a glider tow and one of the tow planes took out one side of trailer when the guy set up his plane he did not rebind he landed with engine still on shut his transmitter off to make adjustments the plane went full throttle took off by itself I hit at full speed about 3 feet off the ground engine was in middle of toy hauler inside. Brand new 2 weeks old had not even peed in the toilet yet that was the part that upset me the most other than he missed my dads head by less than a foot he could not move he is paralyzed in wheel chair.
Gerry
05-31-2015, 08:41 AM
#137
I guess the B-29 example isn't being used here because there was no injury, so it doesn't quite have that "if it bleeds it leads" punch? ... So you have two instances, one years old now, that you can bring out as examples. ... The "near miss" issue alone, virtually impossible to codify, and then analyze. Would it be a strech to say that almost all conclusions would be "don't fly close to each other."
I suppose some will say, but we're not professionals. Ok, but AMA has injected itself as CBO, and has touted their safety management system to government officials. To those with knowledge of such systems, i.e. FAA/NTSB, if they every go looking they won't find anything that looks like a true safety management system. Sure, if they never come looking, nobody is any the wiser. But if there's ever a serious / public event, and they do come looking - it won't be pretty. Additionally, the rate at which insurance payments are rising sure is concerning to me from a safety perspective. That's what we would call a leading indicator (the rate of increase), but what do I know? Now add rising numbers of large and fast aircraft (a 200mph 77lb aircraft - LTMA-1 - presents a significant amount of kinetic energy), the risk that presents due to additional exposure, and I'm very concerned. Just think, in the event of signal loss, one will travel almost 600 feet before the engine even shuts down.
As for near misses being "impossible to codify and analyze", there's any number of industries and companies that haven't just proved both are possible, they're doing it day and day out. Full scale aviation measures runway incursions, altitude busts, etc. It's far from impossible. All it takes is a culture of honesty in reporting, but that's a topic for another day.
Again, I think that when AMA positioned itself as a CBO, that raised the bar. But with all the attention coming on our hobby of late, can we afford to not stay out in front of this?
Last edited by franklin_m; 05-31-2015 at 11:11 AM. Reason: Reworded some stuff
05-31-2015, 01:42 PM
#140
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Originally Posted by [email protected]
i see we are still on the who has to pay what for whatever planes we fly is this ever going to end
06-01-2015, 06:29 AM
#142
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i think someones brains are over worked on this insurance my pick up is heaver then most car so schould i pay more for it>>whats with all this insurance rates anyhow is some one brainless
06-01-2015, 08:12 AM
#143
Originally Posted by [email protected]
what a stuped thing to talk about
If it's the price of and who pays what for AMA insurance U are absolutely Correct IT"S "STUPID". I just can't understand that people don't realize when they have it good and can't let well enough alone. If there were a multi layered AMA membership based on what and how many R/C TOYs a person has it would undoubtedly start at $58 per year and go up from there not down. So any one that seems to want to stand up and rock the boat so to speak maybe should just jump in cause they are all wet anyway. Again JMHO there
07-02-2015, 12:23 PM
#144
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I believe that membership rates should be segregated into competitors and non-competitors and this is the reason. Sure competitors probably have a lot of experience but they fly in areas with higher concentrations of spectators. The pilot does not have to cause the crash, equipment can fail and does fail. The non- competitor is usually flying at his home field most of the time and at my field there usually is only about 1-2 people there at a time. Chances for an accident at my field is much lower than at a sanctioned event. To fly competitive, you would need to have an upgraded membership. To fly on the weekends at your home field would only require a basic membership. Memberships would be able to be upgraded anytime if you so desired to change your mind. Memberships could be easily checked to participate in competitive events. And one last thing. I don't want to pay for a magazine that I don't care to read anymore. Why am I forced to pay for it with my membership. Please make it a choice so that I can save that money on my membership.
For those that say the price increase is no big deal. Well for some, it is, and I am one of them. I don't even own a cell phone because I am too cheap to pay for it.
For those that say the price increase is no big deal. Well for some, it is, and I am one of them. I don't even own a cell phone because I am too cheap to pay for it.
07-02-2015, 12:35 PM
#145
For those that say the price increase is no big deal. Well for some, it is, and I am one of them. I don't even own a cell phone because I am too cheap to pay for it.
[/QUOTE]
Well then U R 2 Cheep to be in this hobby. If U can't afford a little more than a Quarter / day U can't afford what it takes to purchase, Fuel, & maintain any R/C equipment. JMHO
[/QUOTE]
Well then U R 2 Cheep to be in this hobby. If U can't afford a little more than a Quarter / day U can't afford what it takes to purchase, Fuel, & maintain any R/C equipment. JMHO
07-02-2015, 12:36 PM
#146
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If you are to CHEAP to pay for IT OR uable to afford it are two different things. I am 73 and on a fixed income no pension just S.S. and Ithink dues are a good deal for the cost.
07-03-2015, 10:26 AM
#147
Well then take the 2 year deal for 93 bucks. Tell ya what, U PM me your AMA number and full name and Phone number. I'll Renew your AMA for 2 years and U can pay me back when and if U get the money together. Now U can't beat a deal like that.
I don't feel sorry for people that have not prepared for living after retirement ... but in your case I'll make an exception.
07-03-2015, 10:46 AM
#148
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Jerzy:
Well then take the 2 year deal for 93 bucks. Tell ya what, U PM me your AMA number and full name and Phone number. I'll Renew your AMA for 2 years and U can pay me back when and if U get the money together. Now U can't beat a deal like that.
I don't feel sorry for people that have not prepared for living after retirement ... but in your case I'll make an exception.
Well then take the 2 year deal for 93 bucks. Tell ya what, U PM me your AMA number and full name and Phone number. I'll Renew your AMA for 2 years and U can pay me back when and if U get the money together. Now U can't beat a deal like that.
I don't feel sorry for people that have not prepared for living after retirement ... but in your case I'll make an exception.
07-03-2015, 01:54 PM
#149
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Jerzy:
Well then take the 2 year deal for 93 bucks. Tell ya what, U PM me your AMA number and full name and Phone number. I'll Renew your AMA for 2 years and U can pay me back when and if U get the money together. Now U can't beat a deal like that.
I don't feel sorry for people that have not prepared for living after retirement ... but in your case I'll make an exception.
Well then take the 2 year deal for 93 bucks. Tell ya what, U PM me your AMA number and full name and Phone number. I'll Renew your AMA for 2 years and U can pay me back when and if U get the money together. Now U can't beat a deal like that.
I don't feel sorry for people that have not prepared for living after retirement ... but in your case I'll make an exception.
