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WAKE UP AMA. Another field closed!!

Old 11-15-2015, 06:07 AM
  #176  
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Duplicate post.

Last edited by rcmiket; 11-15-2015 at 06:10 AM. Reason: Duplicate Post
Old 11-15-2015, 06:09 AM
  #177  
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Originally Posted by porcia83
That's funny, you quoted one person but referred to two. Why not just let the comment pass? Do you think that telling someone else they need "people skills" class is itself showing good people skills? Why start the day this way, seriously?
"Ha..lol...Yes, by all means, you get to be judge and jury for who belongs on these forums. You can't even get your taunts right. There...you got some more attention. All better now?

If you don't like my comments, just skip over them or learn how to use the ignore function. Don't take it personally if I don't respond to your every comment, it's nothing personal. I respond when I want to, to whom I want to...mkay? You can do the same."

There ya go my "muti quote" must be defected. The above should have been quoted.

Mike.

Last edited by rcmiket; 11-15-2015 at 06:11 AM.
Old 11-15-2015, 06:14 AM
  #178  
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Ya, that's whats defected. Jeez....

Off to fly....got some time in yesterday in 25-35 mph gusts..good times!
Old 11-15-2015, 06:47 AM
  #179  
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Originally Posted by porcia83
That's funny, you quoted one person but referred to two. Why not just let the comment pass? Do you think that telling someone else they need "people skills" class is itself showing good people skills? Why start the day this way, seriously?
The people skills comment wasn't meant to be offensive. Just an assessment, based on years of experience. Our group as a whole needs to accept and address our shortcomings if we expect to grow the hobby. In my experience I've seen a lot of shortcomings at the club level. I know of some local clubs in my area where one has a waiting list and the other has it's membership down > 25%. What's the difference? Networking and recruiting efforts by the membership.

It's unfortunate some feel the need to start every day on a sour note.
Old 11-15-2015, 07:42 AM
  #180  
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Originally Posted by porcia83
Ha..lol...Yes, by all means, you get to be judge and jury for who belongs on these forums. You can't even get your taunts right. There...you got some more attention. All better now?

If you don't like my comments, just skip over them or learn how to use the ignore function. Don't take it personally if I don't respond to your every comment, it's nothing personal. I respond when I want to, to whom I want to...mkay? You can do the same.
OR....you could just refrain from making sideways comments to begin with and keep to the subject(s) at hand...

Astro
Old 11-15-2015, 07:44 AM
  #181  
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Meanwhile back at the ranch...........................

That field is still closed.

Mike
Old 11-15-2015, 07:57 AM
  #182  
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Originally Posted by astrohog
I disagree that there isn't much we can do right now to stop the Gov. intervention. The AMA is, and should be our voice where this potential legislation is concerned. Yes, they have been involved (as they should be, it is their most important function as far as I am concerned), but I believe they should have distanced "us" from the drones. Drones are a new (and distinctly different) hobby that faces different and unique (as witnessed by the recent public and Government outcry and concern like never before in our 80 year history) challenges that clearly calls for their OWN advocacy group.

Historically, the AMA has done a bang-up job at serving the modelers' needs. It is painfully clear that they are NOT the proper organization to advocate for drones, nor do I believe it is too late for the AMA to take a step back and let the FAA or whomever, take on that role. Let the AMA continue to be an exemplary CBO for the hobby it has proven to be able to understand and regulate. As always, it is important that each AMA member voice his/her opinion both to AMA leadership as well as the FAA, the regulatory task force, AND at a local club level to let all of our club members be aware what is happening and how they can participate. Beyond that, it is up to each individual to do their part. Member participation at any level in the past has been sadly lethargic in my opinion and the only way to change that is to spread awareness and urge for members to AT LEAST have, and voice, an opinion!

Regards,

Astro
What's so different about (MR's Quads/Drones). They Fly, they Use Radio control, They have an auto pilot stabilization system so do many of the newer trainers that are supposed to make Self Taught Pilots a possibility. The only real difference between Quads and fixed wing is they are able to be launched and recovered just about anywhere. Here in is the problem, these people, for the most part, Don't know or don't care, or even realize there is a safety issue about when and where they fly. If they were a part of the AMA CBO And Flew at designated flying fields there would not be the problems we have today. Anyone under 19 can belong to the AMA for "FREE". Most clubs have a junior membership that is usually at a much reduced dues structure.

There are two reasons why these people don't care about joining the AMA or flying at a club is because the majority of AMA members are "Grouchy Old Farts" that grumble a lot & really don't want children of younger adults around. Heck there a few that don't even want women at the field. They might have to watch their language or the topics they choose to talk about to their fellow Old Codgers. The other reason is they have to follow rules and be in a structured environment and follow rules. Very few younger people like structure where their "FUN" is concerned. Want proof just ask how many people in your club are under 19 and how many have taken an interest in R/C but then mysteriously disappeared, never to be heard from again.


Besides what the DOT/FAA is about to require "Registration" is not going to work for a meriod of reasons, Many already discussed at length here and other forums. What would make a difference is that the government makes flying Quads anywhere but designated Quad Flying areas and requiring all Quads to have GEO Fencing. This must be accompanied with Strict enforcement and heavy fines and possible Imprisonment.

There are far more frequent & dangerous Laser attacks on airplane cockpits than Drone sightings by a factor of 10. U don't hear aren't any cries to register Laser pointers, at least not yet. This won't change any of us Old codgers minds (way to opinionated to embrace any change) but then Gezzers don't like change for the sake of change.. It was always been good enough the way it is. So let's keep it that way.

Last edited by HoundDog; 11-15-2015 at 08:01 AM.
Old 11-15-2015, 08:07 AM
  #183  
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http://www.rc-float-flying.rchomepag...instructor.htm

http://www.modelaircraft.org/insider/10_01/leader.htm

For the most part, considering what is written in those two articles, there is really not much anyone can or will do to change things.
Old 11-15-2015, 08:14 AM
  #184  
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Hypothetically, if someone came up with a proven means to quickly recruit, and literally instantly train to solo many newcomers to fly fixed wing aircraft....would it be readily accepted by most, if not all clubs?
Old 11-15-2015, 08:44 AM
  #185  
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Originally Posted by HoundDog
What's so different about (MR's Quads/Drones). They Fly, they Use Radio control, They have an auto pilot stabilization system so do many of the newer trainers that are supposed to make Self Taught Pilots a possibility. The only real difference between Quads and fixed wing is they are able to be launched and recovered just about anywhere.
Take a look at the big picture and read between the lines. Multirotors (MR) have caused a huge disruption in the R/C marketplace. It's plausible that some companies that are not in the MR business appear to be using the negative drone publicity as justification for the AMA distance themselves from MRs, thereby protecting their vested financial interests in their existing non-MR aircraft. Sponsored pilots have jumped on the bandwagon in an effort to support their sponsors and their own financial interests.

This has been discussed ad nauseam in the past with both manufacturers and sponsored pilots in total denial of this blatantly obvious conflict of interest.
Old 11-15-2015, 09:35 AM
  #186  
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Originally Posted by Chris P. Bacon

This has been discussed ad nauseam in the past with both manufacturers and sponsored pilots in total denial of this blatantly obvious conflict of interest.
There is no conflict of interest. If you continue to espouse this, please PROVE it.

Your continued claims are not fact-based!

The opinions I have portrayed here and in other threads are simply my opinions as a long-time AMA member. PERIOD. I cannot help it if you cannot fathom that, or if you are in disagreement.

Astro
Old 11-15-2015, 09:38 AM
  #187  
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Originally Posted by fliers1
http://www.rc-float-flying.rchomepag...instructor.htm

http://www.modelaircraft.org/insider/10_01/leader.htm

For the most part, considering what is written in those two articles, there is really not much anyone can or will do to change things.
Really GRATE Post Thanks.
Just a short story I'm 72 and Instruct at the Club in AZ. A gentleman came to me at home ( he saw my planes). He has this plane he bought 20 years ago that was about 20 years old then, and wondered if it would/could fly. It seemed sound so I started to disect it OLD Radio Hobby Shack 72 Mhz w/ no Transmitter. Thought I could at least use the servos. Nope so I came up with 4 well used servos out of my stash. Installed them. Recovered some of the missing covering and patched a couple of holes. OH added a Batt and 6 Channel Receiver. after 3 days of fixing it's Ready for flight. I took to field for a test flight (Maiden). Had one of the really good flyers fly it. He trimmed it out and landed it. Gassed it and I was ready to instruct this New 72 year old Student. After fixing the trim problems. Got it in the air. U know The expression Bert Simpson says when things don't go right."Crappity, CRAP, CRAP, CRAP". I manage Got it down in one piece. Well it was so docile but not tail heavy luckily, So so there are more things to do Increase the throes. Change the push rods too sloppy (NYrod crap). Well now I had 4 days in it. Back to the field and have another great flyer test (Maiden) it again. Goes pretty well. So it trimmed So I let my buddy take this 72 year old student on the buddy box for his first time. He'the student has got thousands of hours in Full Scale, See the Problem here. Anyway the plane heads for the desert floor several times and my buddy recovers it but just barley.. The right wing is severely warped and the elevator push rod is too sloppy Change it out and come back the next day. So I get it off the ground , get it trimmed for hands off. Fly it around to get familiar with it. 3 times around the pattern and I fee save. So I set it up straight and level and say "It's Your plane well in 5 seconds he's in trouble I take it and bring it around give it to him again 8 seconds this time. so I take it around again and getting ready to hand it off and the thing becomes a LAWN DART. Post inspection the 40 year old glue on the elevator hinges gave out and they pulled out. The look on his face as we picked up the Pieces to say the least was not "PRICELESS".

Luckily someone had donated a really old trainer to the club and the X president gave it to us. Another 4 days and it's ready for a Maiden New servos, New Push rods. A heavy 2.5 oz Hub and 1.5 oz of led under the engine and it balances at just a little less than 1/3 of the cord. Pinned the Hinges, added 2 servos in the wing and got the carb freed up and it runs. Hope it Flies too. Maybe after the bad weather passes later this week.
Well maybe it wasn't that short but OH Well.

Last edited by HoundDog; 11-15-2015 at 09:45 AM.
Old 11-15-2015, 09:47 AM
  #188  
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Originally Posted by HoundDog
What's so different about (MR's Quads/Drones). They Fly, they Use Radio control, They have an auto pilot stabilization system so do many of the newer trainers that are supposed to make Self Taught Pilots a possibility. The only real difference between Quads and fixed wing is they are able to be launched and recovered just about anywhere. Here in is the problem, these people, for the most part, Don't know or don't care, or even realize there is a safety issue about when and where they fly.
The difference between DRONES (DRONES are not necessarily MR's. They can be fixed-wing as well) is exactly what you said, "The only real difference between <snip> is they are able to be launched and recovered just about anywhere. Here in is the problem, these people, for the most part, Don't know or don't care, or even realize there is a safety issue about when and where they fly."

I don't agree that the simple fix is to make them join the AMA and then they will "magically" be aware of and follow the rules.

DRONES are a completely different hobby from traditional modeling (has been discussed/debated at length in other threads) in that it is NOT about the building and flying of model aircraft, it is about the technological capabilities (auto-pilot, camera, GPS, video, etc.). Due to this, they are operated in different environs and under different conditions than our 'traditional' model aircraft. This can be clearly evidenced by all the negative press they have received in the past couple of years. The general public has no problem with 'traditional' model aviation as evidenced by our almost 80 years of stellar relationships and almost zero issues.

Astro
Old 11-15-2015, 09:58 AM
  #189  
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Originally Posted by rcmiket
Meanwhile back at the ranch...........................

That field is still closed.

Mike
Yup...might never open again. Local politics can be difficult to overcome. At one point someone mentioned the AMA was aware and has become involved. No other real details though.
Old 11-15-2015, 10:01 AM
  #190  
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Originally Posted by astrohog
The difference between DRONES (DRONES are not necessarily MR's. They can be fixed-wing as well) is exactly what you said, "The only real difference between <snip> is they are able to be launched and recovered just about anywhere. Here in is the problem, these people, for the most part, Don't know or don't care, or even realize there is a safety issue about when and where they fly."

I don't agree that the simple fix is to make them join the AMA and then they will "magically" be aware of and follow the rules.

DRONES are a completely different hobby from traditional modeling (has been discussed/debated at length in other threads) in that it is NOT about the building and flying of model aircraft, it is about the technological capabilities (auto-pilot, camera, GPS, video, etc.). Due to this, they are operated in different environs and under different conditions than our 'traditional' model aircraft. This can be clearly evidenced by all the negative press they have received in the past couple of years. The general public has no problem with 'traditional' model aviation as evidenced by our almost 80 years of stellar relationships and almost zero issues.

Astro
Half the planes flying today are not built by the pilot the great majority are the way they come out of the box. and the so called trainers all have all the auto pilots and stabilization and that will be traditional model aviation soon if not already.

As for Negative press that can be changed by the FAA saying that all Quads have GEO Fencing.That will keep them from operating where they shouldn't be flown. I expect that all receivers will have it built in if the FAA has it way after Registration doesn not work. Remember hoe the OLD single conversion receivers were out lawed by the FCC. Well the Government can mandate GEO Fending for all Models/Drones.
Old 11-15-2015, 10:05 AM
  #191  
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I hate the word drone.
Old 11-15-2015, 10:07 AM
  #192  
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Originally Posted by fliers1
http://www.rc-float-flying.rchomepag...instructor.htm

http://www.modelaircraft.org/insider/10_01/leader.htm

For the most part, considering what is written in those two articles, there is really not much anyone can or will do to change things.
I'll echo what HD said...great post. The second link is some deep stuff. I snapshot of human nature that could probably be applied to many different groups, hobbies, clubs of all types etc etc. One theme I see in there is the soft skills of folks, the "human touch", ability to communicate with others. It can be tough to be part of a group or club that wants and tries to be be everything to everyone. I've always felt at least half the membership is going to be be ticked about something the board does. That piece about meetings though really sticks out, boring, repetitive, bogged down with process, rules, the same issues discussed each month. Been there...didn't like that. Gotta mix it up a little bit. I'm hoping for some flaming lasagna limbo for our holiday meeting.
I'll echo what Houd
Old 11-15-2015, 10:07 AM
  #193  
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Originally Posted by edgeflyer
I hate the word drone.
Ditto
Old 11-15-2015, 10:31 AM
  #194  
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I am DONE with this thread
Old 11-15-2015, 11:20 AM
  #195  
Chris P. Bacon
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Originally Posted by edgeflyer
I hate the word drone.
So do I.
Old 11-15-2015, 11:24 AM
  #196  
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Originally Posted by fliers1
http://www.rc-float-flying.rchomepag...instructor.htm

http://www.modelaircraft.org/insider/10_01/leader.htm

For the most part, considering what is written in those two articles, there is really not much anyone can or will do to change things.
Actually, I have to admit I totally enjoyed that instructor article. Outstandingly done. Thanks for the link.
Old 11-15-2015, 11:51 AM
  #197  
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Originally Posted by HoundDog
Half the planes flying today are not built by the pilot the great majority are the way they come out of the box. and the so called trainers all have all the auto pilots and stabilization and that will be traditional model aviation soon if not already


Flight stabilization is much different than full-on auto pilot or GPS and FPV guided systems. Flight stabilization allows easier transition into a student learning how to control his aircraft all by himself. ARF's have been around for decades and ARF's have NOT been the root of any public outcry. There have always been 'traditional modelers' who employed skilled builders to build their planes (essentially an ARF) and only enjoyed the flying aspect of the hobby. As well, there have always been the modelers who did not take part in the flying part much, but rather enjoyed and honed their skills as builders. Neither one of these types have caused the negative press and/or need for legislation that the onslaught of drones and 'droners' have.

Basically, my opinion has been formed by taking a step outside of my 'comfort zone' or 'box' and asking myself, "WHY, all of a sudden is my historically benign hobby under attack?" "WHAT has changed?" It then became very clear to me that this new technology (and who, how, when and where it is being used) is the root cause of this sudden outcry and despite the many similarities to 'traditional modeling', it is a distinctly different hobby, that needs to be handled as such. The AMA was formed by and for 'traditional modelers' (remember, that is ALL we had and knew when the AMA was formed!) and is simply not adequate or equipped to be able to manage these new technologies and the way the operators of such technologies need to operate in order to enjoy their new passions.


As for Negative press that can be changed by the FAA saying that all Quads have GEO Fencing.That will keep them from operating where they shouldn't be flown. I expect that all receivers will have it built in if the FAA has it way after Registration doesn not work. Remember hoe the OLD single conversion receivers were out lawed by the FCC. Well the Government can mandate GEO Fending for all Models/Drones.
If only it were that simple. The negative press that I believe started all of this was the "talking heads" on the six o'clock news. It is their job to generate "news" that will attract an audience in order to sell advertising. Well, they hit it out of the park with this issue! Now THEY (the uninformed media with an agenda to make $$) simply throw stories out there for the uninformed public, who go to the water cooler at work and, based on a sensationalized news story, get their co-workers up in arms about their privacy and safety, who then nag their legislators to, "do something about this", and VOILA, we find ourselves in the middle of a perfect storm.

The FAA also has legitimate concerns where this new technology is involved because it CAN, WILL and DOES affect the safety and operation of full-scale, manned commercial and GA aircraft operations. The AMA is not and will never be equipped to control model operations anywhere, except at established fields that are self-regulated within the auspices of the AMA rules by AMA-sanctioned clubs (this is the whole premise of their CBO status).

Now, there is yet ANOTHER entity that is actively involved and has a stake in the operations of drones and the National Airspace; enter the BIG-DOLLAR retailers. Again, the AMA is woefully equipped to have any effect on this group, as there is just too much $$ backing this lobby.

It is due to all of these reasons (as well as many others) that I have come to MY conclusion that the BEST possible way for the AMA to advocate in this situation, is to NOT embrace the drones, and instead advocate for the majority of its members and CLEARLY and EMPHATICALLY draw a line between drones and model aviation.

I am in NO WAY ANTI-DRONE.

I am NOT calling out to BAN drones.

I am simply saying that drones are distinctly different from 'model aircraft' and need their own advocacy group that can more adequately lobby for their own, unique needs and let 'model aviation' continue to operate safely and unfettered as it has for the last 70 or 80 years.

This is simply my opinion. It is based on facts and reality and may be somewhat biased towards how I would like to continue enjoying MY hobby, without having to sacrifice certain freedoms in order to accommodate the drones and droners who HAVE caused all this recent ruckus.

No matter what side of the fence you are on, or what your opinion on drones is, it is very clear to me that the FIRST (and quite possibly the most important) thing that MUST happen, is for all parties involved (FAA, DOT, Federal Government, Amazon, the AMA and its members, etc.) to CLEARLY DEFINE what constitutes a drone, a model aircraft, hobby operations, and commercial operations. Without a CLEAR definition of those things, it is GUARANTEED that all future legislation will be woefully pointless. There are and have been MANY definitions presented by the various participants, but I do not believe that there is any ONE definition that is recognized by all parties involved (I may be wrong, because I am not a legal professional and have no idea on which, of the various definitions floating around, may be the ONE, legal definition).

This is one thing that I believe the AMA could, and should be, advocating at this juncture. I think they are held in high enough regard as a principal CBO, that a concerted effort on their part to point out that clear definitions are a necessary first step and fundamental foundation for whatever actions take place in the future.

Regards,

Astro
Old 11-15-2015, 12:41 PM
  #198  
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After we get all the rogue drone flyers to join the AMA, then it should be fairly simple to get all the criminals and irresponsible gun users to join the NRA and show up for Gun Class...!

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=...3lQwx0QFswaWzA

Last edited by combatpigg; 11-15-2015 at 12:45 PM.
Old 11-15-2015, 01:03 PM
  #199  
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Astro, I'm not Anti Drone either.
I just don't see the urgency to get the AMA involved with FPV style flight until the smoke clears and the government has established rules to control the inevitable abuses that were to be expected.

If the AMA leadership has / had no COI or ties to the toy plane industry in any way, I think we might have seen this whole scenario handled much differently.
There is also a prevailing Belief System being spoon fed into the masses that we must embrace all new things as being "Progressive" and that "Progressive" always equals Good.
Common sense and good judgement are left on the back burner as one example of inept, corrupt and incompetent leadership after another are paraded before our eyes on a daily basis.

There is always plenty of time for the AMA to incorporate FPV style flight AFTER the lines that separate what sets AMA Flyers apart from rogue drone operators has been clearly defined and indelibly etched into the minds of our law makers and of the public.

One question that the AMA leadership should be asked is why they felt the urgent need to dive in before the "Coast was Clear". I would not expect an honest answer to that, nobody there would admit that they wanted to clear a path ASAP for their Buddies in the Drone Industry.
Old 11-15-2015, 01:54 PM
  #200  
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Originally Posted by combatpigg
Astro, I'm not Anti Drone either.
I just don't see the urgency to get the AMA involved with FPV style flight until the smoke clears and the government has established rules to control the inevitable abuses that were to be expected.

If the AMA leadership has / had no COI or ties to the toy plane industry in any way, I think we might have seen this whole scenario handled much differently.
There is also a prevailing Belief System being spoon fed into the masses that we must embrace all new things as being "Progressive" and that "Progressive" always equals Good.
Common sense and good judgement are left on the back burner as one example of inept, corrupt and incompetent leadership after another are paraded before our eyes on a daily basis.

There is always plenty of time for the AMA to incorporate FPV style flight AFTER the lines that separate what sets AMA Flyers apart from rogue drone operators has been clearly defined and indelibly etched into the minds of our law makers and of the public.

One question that the AMA leadership should be asked is why they felt the urgent need to dive in before the "Coast was Clear". I would not expect an honest answer to that, nobody there would admit that they wanted to clear a path ASAP for their Buddies in the Drone Industry.
The coast was never going to "be clear", it was either be involved or not be involved. Not a great choice. If one is wondering why reps from the AMA don't come on here and answer questions, the above is a probably one of the reasons.....cynicism. Why bother asking a question when it's already clear the answer isn't going to be accepted. And now a conspiracy with AMA leadership and drone companies? Wow.

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