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AMA executive council accountability

Old 12-28-2015, 07:16 PM
  #26  
porcia83
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Well, I'll try to agree with everything you say in the future. Amazing how others opinions are useless when they don't line up with yours eh?
Old 12-28-2015, 08:06 PM
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Originally Posted by porcia83
Well, I'll try to agree with everything you say in the future. Amazing how others opinions are useless when they don't line up with yours eh?
Please just don't try to tell us how we could better spend our time, especially when you seem willing to spend your's no different from the way you preach against.

I think most people don't mind being informed about being wrong about certain facts as much as they do being insulted about how they are wasting their time.
What the Insulter is really doing is placing himself in a position of superior authority by using this tactic.
It's hard for me to point this out without sounding just as Sanctimonious.




Old 12-29-2015, 04:45 AM
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Originally Posted by combatpigg
Please just don't try to tell us how we could better spend our time, especially when you seem willing to spend your's no different from the way you preach against.

I think most people don't mind being informed about being wrong about certain facts as much as they do being insulted about how they are wasting their time.
What the Insulter is really doing is placing himself in a position of superior authority by using this tactic.
It's hard for me to point this out without sounding just as Sanctimonious.

This is what you do the best, talk out of both sides of your mouth, sanctimony and hypocrisy, your stock in trade. Unable to just agree to disagree, you continue your silly little personal grudge every chance you get. If you want to stay fixated on the person rather than the message, have at it.
Old 12-29-2015, 11:48 AM
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Steve S. Helland
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I wonder who does hold the record for most posts here on RCU?
Old 12-29-2015, 01:26 PM
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The purpose of this thread was to discuss the future of model aviation and impact that the EC has had on that future. embracing the drones, for whatever reason seems to have turned out bad for all of us. Are we going to be able to correct the "taxation without representation" that our EC has perpetrated on us, or do we as a membership have to rise up and take the organization in a different direction.
Old 12-29-2015, 01:32 PM
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Originally Posted by porcia83
This is what you do the best, talk out of both sides of your mouth, sanctimony and hypocrisy, your stock in trade. Unable to just agree to disagree, you continue your silly little personal grudge every chance you get. If you want to stay fixated on the person rather than the message, have at it.
"Agree to disagree" about what...?
That your favorite tactic when you are out of ammo is to snipe at others for wasting their time here..?

OK, go ahead and disagree to that...be my guest.
Old 12-29-2015, 01:57 PM
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porcia83
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Originally Posted by Red Raider
The purpose of this thread was to discuss the future of model aviation and impact that the EC has had on that future. embracing the drones, for whatever reason seems to have turned out bad for all of us. Are we going to be able to correct the "taxation without representation" that our EC has perpetrated on us, or do we as a membership have to rise up and take the organization in a different direction.
Good idea, back on track to discuss the issues, but hope you can stay true to that as well as not go personal when the opinions expressed don't comport with yours.

The premise that the AMA embraced drones and then perpetrated some type of taxation on us is without merit. If you don't know the difference between drone and MR by the way, you should investigate that. They "embraced" MR because they should have, just like they did Helis years ago. How you left the FAA out of the equation further calls into question to veracity of the premise.

As of this point, based on what we have been presented with by the FAA, the future of the hobby doesn't appear to be the dystopian nightmare some have predicted, almost with longing it seems. Yes, some changes noted, but for the overwhelming majority of AMA members, they register and they fly. And that's how it will go, there will be no "rise up". I say that based on the fact that the registration isn't enough to start an uprising. Even looking at a couple of different websites, the outrage is already waning, and the letters and petitions etc have all but stalled. I'm not saying they weren't well meaning and had good points, but one has less than 700 sigs, and about double that for another one started offline. Hardly an uprising. All is not for nothing though. You are right that we collectively can try to take the organization in a different direction, but I'm sorry, just saying that is only part of the picture.

What's the big picture? Great, an uprising takes hold, and new leadership is installed. Then what? Specifics please, something, anything. Are we looking for change for the sake of change, or change with purpose and direction. What do these new leaders do. Leave off the banning of anything, that's not a viable solution that will make any difference now. Leave off changing the FAAs mind about a registration process, that's done, it won't be rolled back. I get the desire for something new, but if you are going to call for a rising up of people to change the organization, at the same time blaming the current admin of the organization, isn't it fair to come to the table with something specific, rather than a "lets have change" call to arms?

I didn't even go into who the new leaders are, that's a whole different conversation. I just assumed there were tons of people clamoring for the jobs, notwithstanding the fact that there were only two people who rose to the challenge of running for district VPs.
Old 12-29-2015, 02:02 PM
  #33  
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Originally Posted by combatpigg
"Agree to disagree" about what...?
That your favorite tactic when you are out of ammo is to snipe at others for wasting their time here..?

OK, go ahead and disagree to that...be my guest.
I'll give you one last bit of attention you so desperately crave. Look at every one of your posts here, they are all personally directed at me, and have nothing to do with the thread topic. Now go off on another tear, and seek some attaboys from others. You should know at this point it does nothing but amuse me, and make me feel more pity. Insert sad emoji here.
Old 12-29-2015, 02:47 PM
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Originally Posted by porcia83
I'll give you one last bit of attention you so desperately crave. Look at every one of your posts here, they are all personally directed at me, and have nothing to do with the thread topic. Now go off on another tear, and seek some attaboys from others. You should know at this point it does nothing but amuse me, and make me feel more pity. Insert sad emoji here.
Anyone who wishes to can look at both your posts and my posts to see how we spend the bulk of our time here at RCU.
Would you like that...?
Old 12-29-2015, 03:03 PM
  #35  
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Red, anyone who tries to minimize our negative reaction to recent developments, is taking a page right out of Baghdad Bob's Cookbook.

The AMA as a virtual monopoly finds itself in the unique position where they can pretty well do anything they want short of selling the complex in Muncie and running off to Argentina.
As the only supplier of services for what amounts to a non-essential part of our lives they know that nothing they do at HQ would ever be enough to fear mobs of angry subscribers showing up with torches and pitchforks looking for "accountability".

Outside of any individuals at HQ who abandon their posts, I doubt we will see any sense of shame or blame exhibited by the leadership any time soon
Old 12-29-2015, 03:12 PM
  #36  
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Just show up the next AMA EC meeting in January at the AMA Expo.

I bet if you sat through one, you would be amazed as to what the AMA actually does for its members.

Oh, and you can "hold them accountable" if you like............
Old 12-29-2015, 03:17 PM
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Originally Posted by TimJ
Just show up the next AMA EC meeting in January at the AMA Expo.

I bet if you sat through one, you would be amazed as to what the AMA actually does for its members.

Oh, and you can "hold them accountable" if you like............
Could you save me the trouble of flying down there and give me a brief outline of the services they perform that you think I am not aware of...?
Old 12-29-2015, 03:20 PM
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porcia83
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Originally Posted by combatpigg
Anyone who wishes to can look at both your posts and my posts to see how we spend the bulk of our time here at RCU.
Would you like that...?
Other than you and maybe one or two other guys who develop this bizarre fixation, people don't really care. Try to rally some support, it's more desperation. They are able to either ignore posts that they don't agree with, or try to have a discussion, or have the ability to move on. With every post directed at me personally, you validate your inability to do that. So please carry on as you see fit if that's how you want to spend your time on here.
Old 12-29-2015, 03:23 PM
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Originally Posted by porcia83
Other than you and maybe one or two other guys who develop this bizarre fixation, people don't really care. Try to rally some support, it's more desperation. They are able to either ignore posts that they don't agree with, or try to have a discussion, or have the ability to move on. With every post directed at me personally, you validate your inability to do that. So please carry on as you see fit if that's how you want to spend your time on here.
You raised the issue and now you get to reap your reward.
Old 12-29-2015, 03:35 PM
  #40  
porcia83
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Originally Posted by combatpigg
Red, anyone who tries to minimize our negative reaction to recent developments, is taking a page right out of Baghdad Bob's Cookbook.

The AMA as a virtual monopoly finds itself in the unique position where they can pretty well do anything they want short of selling the complex in Muncie and running off to Argentina.
As the only supplier of services for what amounts to a non-essential part of our lives they know that nothing they do at HQ would ever be enough to fear mobs of angry subscribers showing up with torches and pitchforks looking for "accountability".

Outside of any individuals at HQ who abandon their posts, I doubt we will see any sense of shame or blame exhibited by the leadership any time soon
It's not the fact that there is a minimization of the anger and frustration to what has gone on, it's more the empty sloganeering that occurs as a result of it. If someone is going to blame the AMA for this (and completely absolve the FAA), and try to spark some type of uprising, it's fair game I think to ask for specific remedies, what's the plan stan? If people are happy with empty trite overused sayings like "we need change", and "lets get new leadership", well then they can pump their fist and say hell ya, that's what we need, then move on to the next thread. Serve up a viable alternative to what we currently have, and if it's a good idea, people will follow.

As for the monopoly, that's not something to blame the AMA for, that's just a reality that they are the best at what they do. Nobody can touch them, or come close. And everyone who laments that they are the only ones in town, and do nothing about that, have only themselves to blame. Impotent, ineffective, and lacking the ability to try it on their own. If only someone with the keen insights of this hobby could step up and try, after all, someone did 25 years ago. What a sad commentary. But hey, they can complain about it here, that will help. While not perfect, because who is, the folks at HQ have nothing to be ashamed of, at least they are doing something.

So along those lines, I've started researching an alternative to the AMA, after all it's just insurance that landowners want right? No bells and whistles, not perks, no help to clubs, just straight up liability protection for a group of people who want to fly on both privately owned as well as publicly owned land. I'll be starting off at lower limits of protection that what the AMA provides, so it won't exactly be an apples to apples comparison, but one would think I could get a better deal with lower limits. Stay tuned, once I start getting more info I'll start a thread and we can discuss it there.
Old 12-29-2015, 03:36 PM
  #41  
porcia83
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Originally Posted by combatpigg
You raised the issue and now you get to reap your reward.
Oh dear. Time well spent for you I guess. Grief and rage and anger sure do manifest themselves in bizarre ways.
Old 12-29-2015, 03:40 PM
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Originally Posted by combatpigg
Could you save me the trouble of flying down there and give me a brief outline of the services they perform that you think I am not aware of...?
If you can't be troubled to get off your ass and do it yourself, then you certainly don't have the time to understand services you are not aware of.
Old 12-29-2015, 03:46 PM
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Originally Posted by porcia83
Oh dear. Time well spent for you I guess. Grief and rage and anger sure do manifest themselves in bizarre ways.
I guess you delight in hijacking every thread. That's a shame. No meaningful dialogue here. Just bull ****. Thanks porcia
Old 12-29-2015, 04:01 PM
  #44  
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Did the AMA embrace the drones and MR's? Yes they did, but who created this mess? The idiots that fly them where they are not suppost to, and I would say that none of them even knew about the AMA.So with all that said how can all of it be the fault of the AMA. In my opinion that is where the AMA was slow to adress the problem and put up more of a fight for the ones of us that fly by the rules of the AMA. It is like they took a passive stance in the matter for fear of stepping on toes, but ended up stepping on our toes.
Old 12-29-2015, 04:02 PM
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He must be wording Obama speeches........ triple talk
Old 12-29-2015, 04:22 PM
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Originally Posted by TimJ
If you can't be troubled to get off your ass and do it yourself, then you certainly don't have the time to understand services you are not aware of.
LOL.
So much squirm, so much FAIL.
Old 12-29-2015, 04:28 PM
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he AMA has aligned us and made us responsible for a group of flyers that will never be part of the AMA. If you are willing to fly your drone according to the AMA safety code fine, your not the problem. However, that is not what I have seen with drone flying. The very nature of quad flying is exploration of hard to reach prohibited areas.
Like the drone hitting the Capital Building in Albany NY. (http://news10.com/2015/10/07/adam-ru...-into-capitol/ ) October 7 2015.
The majority of drone users(Camera,GPS,FPV) are not content with line of sight flying.
The small quad-copters non-camera, non-GPS or simple flight stabilization, (they sell them in 7/11)
will end up in the scrap heap in short order. Not to say they can't do
damage perceptually as well as physically. However the drone groups advocating
unrestricted flight can never become part of the AMA. The AMA safety
code prohibit such flights. Isn't it interesting that DJI the large Chinese Drone Manufacturer (http://www.economist.com/news/busine...sing-market-up) has offered to underwrite drone insurance. Their actuaries probably computed the risk/reward and figured it would improve sales. About 5 billion by 2021.
I personally know, too many AMA members that fly drones around heavy full scale aircraft areas. Near Laguardia airport, from parks on Long Island Sound in New Rochelle NY. Do they think they're covered by AMA.
Drone flying at an AMA field in the flight pattern, or Drone racing FPV or line of sight ,must
occur at an AMA field for our AMA insurance to be in effect.
The AMA Park Flier program has circumvented this, and opened Pandora's Box of problems. This has encouraged people to fly where ever they want to. The people I know, who fly drones get a huge kick out of sending their drones and cameras out on a programmed flight course, out of line of sight, taking beautiful pictures, then boring their fellow fliers with these pictures.
We got two big problems the general drone flying public, who the AMA has made us responsible for, and these obstinate AMA fliers who believe it is their RIGHT to fly unrestricted over people and property. Municipalities have already restricted such flights. I have been at AMA events like IRCHA and had video drones over my head, I didn't feel too comfortable.
I wonder if one of these renegade drone fliers would like it if a drone flew over their children at a park.
Yet, Bob Brown our President of the AMA in his most recent Presidents
perspective in January 2016 issue, says, he is hopeful that more retailers like Best Buy will purchase AMA
membership for "qualified buyers of the products (drone) they sell. The problem isn't bad enough Bob you want to add fuel (30% Nitro) to the fire. But good O'le Bob says; it can all be cure by education, this is Bob's cover story. Well, the story is either greed or stupidity, in either case it is not the position for a president of a national organization to take.
He further states, "you can help by allowing these new pilots a safe place to fly and helping to introduce them into our great hobby."
Well Bob, most of these general public wouldn't give a squirt of piss for the AMA membership. Neither do they want to find an AMA field to limit their flying. The AMA has put us in this situation A few safe places still exist, but may not exist much longer if this
FAA registration goes through. Yeah, I know it's only $5 bucks, the slouches of this hobby say, and of course the AMA has all our information already and would gladly provide it to the FAA anyway.
Hey I got some rope in my garage, for my own hanging but I won't run to provide it to the hangman.
Usually, a person wanting to learn to fly, will venture to a club, introduce themselves, purchase AMA and begin a learning phase of flying, this still could happen, but is highly unlikely to, for the majority of drone purchases.
President Brown has short circuited the filtering process that occurs at most clubs. Not all people who WANT to fly, SHOULD FLY. Some lack the ability, maturity or both. The unqualified, unsafe and uncooperative are generally not granted permission to fly by the club. We all had to jump through many hoops to EARN permission to fly. Now any jerk with a credit card and two thumbs is qualified for an AMA membership. We are grouped with the largely unknown general public and the renegade AMA fliers.

How would you feel if a General Motors, and Ford, decided to provide free
insurance, from your insurance companies, to unlicensed individuals , seeking a learners permit to drive? Gee, I thought you got the permit
and experience under the watchful eye of an instructor before you took the car on the road.
Your insurance premiums would sky rocket in this scenario due to increasing claims of liability. The law makers would be compelled of course, to legislate against all drivers since we would all be mixed together.
This is what our AMA has done to us, with their programs and policies.
The AMA as a provider of insurance has violated their fiduciary responsibility to it's current members in its' pursuit of future members. That breach of responsibility is an actionable offense.
The AMA and its' board needs to be put on noticed by the current membership that we ain't buying their line of bull. Their move to sue the FAA only came after many emailed the hell out of the AMA. More is needed.
This is my guess on how the deal was structured between AMA and Retailer/Manufacturers.
These AMA retail memberships are, I would imagine, not paid for on a by purchase basis. The paperwork would be staggering, for the retailers and the AMA. The manufacturers, knew they were going to have trouble with the sale/use of these drones, so they needed a front man, the AMA, volunteered to take the heat for all the problems that would arise, in exchange for $membership dollars. The AMA wanted the money from all the new members , so under the guise of embracing technology and educating people about the joys of flying, the AMA threw us, their current members under the bus.
The retailers and the "some manufacturers have probably made a lump sum payment to the AMA that could be applied to new members. The AMA will use that $Money for Washington Lobbyists,salaries, and expense accounts.
Do you like how the lobbyists have lobbied for your hobby?
Old 12-29-2015, 04:30 PM
  #48  
porcia83
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Originally Posted by Red Raider
I guess you delight in hijacking every thread. That's a shame. No meaningful dialogue here. Just bull ****. Thanks porcia
Well you're welcome I guess. Try directing some of that anger to the other guy, if you are capable of realizing the issues. I've tried to engage in some meaningful dialog repeatedly that you can't see if is your problem. Going on the attack, bringing in off-topic issues is a common ploy for those unable to really state their position, or have someone disagree with it. You'll find the comfort of agreement with many here, so take that as a positive. You'll also have some different viewpoints, so far you seem incapable of dealing with that, labeling it "bull....". Amazing how thin skinned some people are. What a terribly small minded approach. Mirrors the sloganeering though, so....

So are you going to offer up any specifics, or just double down and stick with personal attacks and calls for an uprising?
Old 12-29-2015, 04:56 PM
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Jeffrey Solomon, thanks for your great post.
It does my heart good to see folks like you [who normally do not post at RCU], compelled to show just how angry and betrayed you feel about this.
Many years ago, those who shared your views were all labeled "Tin Foil Hats" by those [at this forum] who thought that there was NOTHING in the future that could possibly go wrong.
They are also the same ones who believe it is the AMA's DUTY to embrace every new technological development that comes rolling along without question.
Old 12-29-2015, 05:15 PM
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Thanks Man

Who gunna feed maw keeids?
Why social services of course!
Awesome

I got a response from several guy that things could be worse
Don't rock the boat
I told them to clean the sand out of their ears like any good ostrich would
Not in those words but close

If registration of every flyer AMA or not ,would make things safer
I'd do it in a minute.
Less than a minute.
But it won't!
I know it!
You know it!
The AMA knows it!
The FAA knows it!
Congress may or may not know it!

We have to many AMA members who have a defeatists, selfish or apathetic attitude already. They are the "I just want to fly" contingent of every club.
If you are content to let the FAA interpret any way they want, without a fight, and that means what we write to each other as well
we will have permitted
Pandora to open her box and trust me it don't smell good.

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