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Never before have I ever seen anything like this

Old 02-03-2016, 05:11 PM
  #76  
Chris P. Bacon
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Originally Posted by Silent-AV8R
I've been registered for almost a month now. So far nothing seems any different. Go figure.
What? I thought you were going to hold out as long as possible?
Old 02-03-2016, 06:34 PM
  #77  
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Originally Posted by Silent-AV8R
I've been registered for almost a month now. So far nothing seems any different. Go figure.
The FAA works in strange and mysterious ways. Give them time. They know who you are now . Well as for that matter, they have known me since 1968 and nothing is different for me since then ............ LOL
Old 02-03-2016, 06:34 PM
  #78  
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I'm a club officer for our club here, we've been discussing this quite a bit....Here is my current take on it...

- AMA says that clubs are not required to require FAA registration from there members
- FAA has not said that community based organizations are required to police their own. The onus/responsibility is on the operator and only the operator.
- Local PD and DOT's do not have the authority to enforce the federal regulations put forward. The only thing they can do is contact the FAA and request the FAA investigate using the FAA's resources...and even then, according to the rules.. see #2, its the responsibility of the pilot, not the club according to current FAA rules.
- The FAA proposed regulations are not set in stone and won't be here for several years.

To jump and modify club by-laws to try and hit a moving target where it has clearly been stated that as of now the clubs have no need to do so seems a bit irresponsible to me. The ball is still in the air, we don't know where it is going to land, yet while it is in the air we are going to make our members jump through hoops that likely are going to change in the coming months. Bye bye members...

at some point a by-law update may be needed, but things are going to change, and until the dust settles I don't think it is prudent to go whacking away at the rules....
Old 02-03-2016, 07:51 PM
  #79  
Chris P. Bacon
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Originally Posted by mattnew
I'm a club officer for our club here, we've been discussing this quite a bit....Here is my current take on it...

- AMA says that clubs are not required to require FAA registration from there members

That doesn't mean they can't. I don't know about your club, but my club is incorporated in our state as a non-profit corporation making us a legal business entity. The primary role of the officers is to protect the assets of the corporation and to operate in the best interests of the corporation. It's important to understand that the AMA does not provide legal advice to clubs. In some cases, legal advice can vary by state. What the AMA has not told anyone is what happens to the corporation (i.e., club) if someone who is not registered causes an accident? Can the club be held accountable for knowingly letting that member fly unregistered or not verifying registration knowing it's a federal requirement? Is the AMA going to pickup the club's legal fees should such an event occur?

In the litigious society we live in it seems like a no brainer to make it a club requirement to protect the best interests of the club. If registration is no longer required at some point in the future (which I hope) just throw it out in the trash. In the meantime it's simple to collect each member's FAA registration number. Many clubs in my area have already made it a requirement.


- FAA has not said that community based organizations are required to police their own. The onus/responsibility is on the operator and only the operator.
- Local PD and DOT's do not have the authority to enforce the federal regulations put forward. The only thing they can do is contact the FAA and request the FAA investigate using the FAA's resources...and even then, according to the rules.. see #2, its the responsibility of the pilot, not the club according to current FAA rules.
- The FAA proposed regulations are not set in stone and won't be here for several years.

To jump and modify club by-laws to try and hit a moving target where it has clearly been stated that as of now the clubs have no need to do so seems a bit irresponsible to me. The ball is still in the air, we don't know where it is going to land, yet while it is in the air we are going to make our members jump through hoops that likely are going to change in the coming months. Bye bye members...

at some point a by-law update may be needed, but things are going to change, and until the dust settles I don't think it is prudent to go whacking away at the rules....
..
Old 02-03-2016, 09:27 PM
  #80  
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Originally Posted by Chris P. Bacon
Using your own childish analogy, how safe is your SSN, credit card number, your driver's license, or your bank account number? Ever write a check? Ever eat out and hand your credit card to a waiter/waitress? How about a gas attendant? Ever put your SSN or driver's license number on a job application? Ever visit the doctor? Ever ordering anything over the phone or on the web? Do you get mail delivered to your residence?
So far, several have expressed that they have seen My point. You're the only one who has expressed a problem with it. What does that tell You? I just try to add substance to the conversation. Food for thought. Many are still on the fence about registering for several reasons. Not hard to understand.
Old 02-03-2016, 09:30 PM
  #81  
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Originally Posted by Chris P. Bacon
What? I thought you were going to hold out as long as possible?
Not sure I ever said that. I did say I was going to follow the AMA's recommendation to hold. Once they said to go ahead, I did. Saved the $5 too!!
Old 02-03-2016, 10:35 PM
  #82  
Chris P. Bacon
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Originally Posted by F-16 viperman
So far, several have expressed that they have seen My point.

I saw your point, it didn't make any realistic sense. I asked several realistic questions, none of which you answered.

You're the only one who has expressed a problem with it. What does that tell You?

What do you think it tells you? Do you think everyone here has the same life experiences? Performs the same job duties? Has the same educational and professional experience?

I just try to add substance to the conversation. Food for thought. Many are still on the fence about registering for several reasons. Not hard to understand.

The choice is yours.
..
Old 02-03-2016, 10:37 PM
  #83  
Chris P. Bacon
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Originally Posted by Silent-AV8R
Not sure I ever said that. I did say I was going to follow the AMA's recommendation to hold. Once they said to go ahead, I did. Saved the $5 too!!
I'm holding out as long as possible. Was hoping they would revise the guidance on their web application.
Old 02-03-2016, 11:21 PM
  #84  
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Originally Posted by Chris P. Bacon
I'm holding out as long as possible. Was hoping they would revise the guidance on their web application.
So you are in the camp that thinks a non-regulatory guideline is an actual rule? As I have said numerous times, if it is not in the FARs, then it it not a regulation/rule/law. You can only be issued a violation for something that is in the FAR.

FWIW, I asked the AMA about this and got this answer (today):

Hi Bill,
We are confident members can continue flying over 400. This was confirmed by the FAA and their legal team.I anticipate we will receive documentation on the protections of 336 in the coming weeks. It may not appear on the website, but instead may be a written notice or letter direct from the FAA. Right now our legal counsel and their legal counsel are reviewing the language, which will probably take some time.Chad BudreauAcademy of Model Aeronautics
Old 02-04-2016, 04:26 AM
  #85  
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Originally Posted by Chris P. Bacon
Using your own childish analogy, how safe is your SSN, credit card number, your driver's license, or your bank account number? Ever write a check? Ever eat out and hand your credit card to a waiter/waitress? How about a gas attendant? Ever put your SSN or driver's license number on a job application? Ever visit the doctor? Ever ordering anything over the phone or on the web? Do you get mail delivered to your residence?
Tat info is on state, bank, and credit card accounts. The Chinese, North Koreans, Russians, and Iranians, among others are not hacking those sites. At least not with the frequency as government sites.
Old 02-04-2016, 04:44 AM
  #86  
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Originally Posted by Sport_Pilot
Tat info is on state, bank, and credit card accounts. The Chinese, North Koreans, Russians, and Iranians, among others are not hacking those sites. At least not with the frequency as government sites.
A data breach is a data breach. Ever file a tax return? Have a SSN? A passport? Do yo own a home? Have a computer at home connected to the Internet? How about a cell or tablet connected to the Internet? Ever use public WiFi? Your data is probably safer with the Chinese, North Koreans, Russians, and Iranians than it is with some of the domestic hackers or 12 year olds who a read a phone book.
Old 02-04-2016, 04:51 AM
  #87  
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Originally Posted by Chris P. Bacon
A data breach is a data breach. Ever file a tax return? Have a SSN? A passport? Do yo own a home? Have a computer at home connected to the Internet? How about a cell or tablet connected to the Internet? Ever use public WiFi? Your data is probably safer with the Chinese, North Koreans, Russians, and Iranians than it is with some of the domestic hackers or 12 year olds who a read a phone book.
I don't understand why you think it is safer with our enemy. They use our credit cards to fund terrorists. And the IRS is a lot more secure than the FAA, which BTW is available to all except for the credit card info.
Old 02-04-2016, 05:09 AM
  #88  
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FYI

http://www.engadget.com/2016/02/03/f...acy-nightmare/
Old 02-04-2016, 05:50 AM
  #89  
Chris P. Bacon
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Originally Posted by Sport_Pilot
What's the privacy issue? You own a home? You pay property taxes? That's public information. Got an amateur radio license? That's publicly information too.
Old 02-04-2016, 05:53 AM
  #90  
Chris P. Bacon
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Originally Posted by Sport_Pilot
I don't understand why you think it is safer with our enemy. They use our credit cards to fund terrorists. And the IRS is a lot more secure than the FAA, which BTW is available to all except for the credit card info.
Of course they do. And you know the IRS is a lot more secure than the FAA because? How do you even know the FAA is actually storing your CC info. permanently?
Old 02-04-2016, 06:16 AM
  #91  
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Originally Posted by Chris P. Bacon
What's the privacy issue? You own a home? You pay property taxes? That's public information. Got an amateur radio license? That's publicly information too.
The issue is that anybody can access the database. With those only the police can access. With a mortgage, only banks, and other business can access. Property Tax depends on the local but generally that is restricted as well. With the FAA database, anybody can access at any time for free. Maybe not info for now, but I bet that information gets a lot deeper in the future. I will not register.
Old 02-04-2016, 07:01 AM
  #92  
Chris P. Bacon
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Originally Posted by Sport_Pilot
The issue is that anybody can access the database. With those only the police can access. With a mortgage, only banks, and other business can access. Property Tax depends on the local but generally that is restricted as well. With the FAA database, anybody can access at any time for free. Maybe not info for now, but I bet that information gets a lot deeper in the future. I will not register.
That's the way public information works. Is this your neck of the woods? Property taxes on-line here:

http://www.cobbassessor.org/cobbga/s...spx?mode=owner
Old 02-04-2016, 07:31 AM
  #93  
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That's just property, owner, and address. No vital information such as registration number.
Old 02-04-2016, 07:43 AM
  #94  
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I am not going to register becuase it is a gov't kneejerk overreach that accomplishes nothing. I might even go fly on 2-20-16 just for the fun of it.
Old 02-04-2016, 08:16 AM
  #95  
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Originally Posted by Sport_Pilot
That's just property, owner, and address. No vital information such as registration number.
Registration number is not SPI.
Old 02-04-2016, 08:16 AM
  #96  
Chris P. Bacon
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Originally Posted by mike1974
I am not going to register becuase it is a gov't kneejerk overreach that accomplishes nothing. I might even go fly on 2-20-16 just for the fun of it.
Thank you for that report.
Old 02-04-2016, 08:42 AM
  #97  
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Originally Posted by Chris P. Bacon
Registration number is not SPI.
I don't mind everbody knowing where I live but if they know the registration number then all they have to do is copy it down from the web and put that on their plane or MR.
Old 02-04-2016, 08:43 AM
  #98  
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Originally Posted by Chris P. Bacon
Thank you for that report.
No problem at all Crispy!!!
Old 02-04-2016, 08:57 AM
  #99  
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Originally Posted by mattnew
I'm a club officer for our club here, we've been discussing this quite a bit....Here is my current take on it...

- AMA says that clubs are not required to require FAA registration from there members
- FAA has not said that community based organizations are required to police their own. The onus/responsibility is on the operator and only the operator.
- Local PD and DOT's do not have the authority to enforce the federal regulations put forward. The only thing they can do is contact the FAA and request the FAA investigate using the FAA's resources...and even then, according to the rules.. see #2, its the responsibility of the pilot, not the club according to current FAA rules.
- The FAA proposed regulations are not set in stone and won't be here for several years.

To jump and modify club by-laws to try and hit a moving target where it has clearly been stated that as of now the clubs have no need to do so seems a bit irresponsible to me. The ball is still in the air, we don't know where it is going to land, yet while it is in the air we are going to make our members jump through hoops that likely are going to change in the coming months. Bye bye members...

at some point a by-law update may be needed, but things are going to change, and until the dust settles I don't think it is prudent to go whacking away at the rules....
Maybe my club's actions are premature, but I don't see how it's irresponsible. The way I see it, the registration concept is here to stay. It seems to be a matter of whether or not the FAA can be convinced to connect it to the AMA registration. If you think the courts will sort this out anytime soon, you're in a dream land. The whole idea that FAA overstepped 336 and therefore instituted an unconstitutional rule will take years to sort out. Without the courts issuing an injunction (which I see as highly unlikely since there would be difficulty proving anything more than inconvenience for modelers), the FAA has the control until the courts hear the case and issue a ruling.

So it seems to me that modelers have a choice. Register and keep flying as you have been. Or, don't register and keep flying as you have been with the understanding that you may run into issues if you fly at other fields (in fun-flys/events for example) that require the FAA registration. I've seen one example of this where a multi-rotor racing league is requiring FAA registration to participate. So, you can "pay to play" or stay home. Either way, individuals have a choice.

Last edited by fly24-7; 02-04-2016 at 09:14 AM.
Old 02-04-2016, 09:15 AM
  #100  
Chris P. Bacon
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Originally Posted by Sport_Pilot
I don't mind everbody knowing where I live but if they know the registration number then all they have to do is copy it down from the web and put that on their plane or MR.
Registration numbers are not SPI.

Someone could just as easily do that with your license plate number or VIN was well.

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