rcmiket

Getting to old for that besides nothing good ever happens after 1 or 2 A.M.

Mike

Sport_Pilot

Can you cite this? Or another conspiracy theory?. The NLF was established in 1960. Eisenhower warned Kennedy to stay out because of the mixed politics. Kennedy ignored him and put more troops in, rumored to have taken covert combat action at that time. But when you get right down to it, LBJ started the war, based on what happened in the Gulf of Tonkin. More of an excuse really. We had some really bad military commanders and the Democrats wanted to control every fly. At least I believe this is when they were counting fly's on flypaper and reporting it to command.

franklin_m

Finally got the EC to take action on this (for E5 and below). Per July 2017 EC Minutes:

"Proposed Discount for Military Members (M. Radcliff)
M. Radcliff received a series of emails from a member in Pennsylvania concerning dues for active duty military members. Final email read, “Pursuant to Article XI, Section 6 of the AMA Bylaws, as a bona fide member I formally request Executive Council action on the following petition: Establish a discounted membership category for active duty US military members in paygrades E5 and below, equal to that afforded to Senior members. Proof of grade to be established by letter on Department of Defense letterhead or a copy of their DOD ID card, with proof of grade required at each renewal.”
Senior rate is $10 off. Discussion ensued on cost of servicing each membership, number of current active duty AMA members, whether or not this opens the door for other group discounts. An E5 makes at best $34,000 per year. A private makes $19,000 per year. VPs can award up to three free memberships per year."

Motion XIV: Moved by Mark Radcliff (III), seconded by E. Williams (II), to establish a membership classification for active US military members in paygrades E-5 and below.
Motion passed: 12 yes; 1 abstention.

Academy of Model Aeronautics - 0717 EC Meeting minutes

Hydro Junkie

Okay, so that one finally passed, 12-0-1
Actually, their figures are a bit off:
An E-1 just out of basic training gets $19,596 per year before taxes, regardless of time in service
An E-5 with less than two years of service makes $27912 and maxes out at 12 years at $39,612 per year before taxes.
These are from the 2018 military pay charts so, obviously, someone didn't do their homework before posting dollar figures. This also doesn't take into account sea pay, flight pay, hazardous duty pay, combat pay, FSA, BAQ, BAS, VHA or any of the other types of compensation people in the military receive. Being a former Navy Payclerk, I know a lot more about what the military gets in pay and allowances than most civilians. What also isn't taken into account is that anyone going overseas can get their pay tax exempt, depending on where they are sent and if the duty is hazardous or not and that can make a huge difference on what shows up in the paycheck every 15 days

franklin_m

I don't know where they got their figures, that was not part of my proposal.

However, I think we can agree that E5 and below don't make a lot of money. I know the E5's at my command were not rolling in cash.

init4fun

Congratulations on getting this enacted Franklin , good work !

Hydro Junkie

Never said it was, Franklin. It just seemed odd that there was a dollar figure listed for those two ranks that, obviously, hadn't been researched. The comment that an E-5 makes "AT BEST" and a "PRIVATE", not an E-1, had red flags all over the place for this former electron chasing and number crunching "squid".

franklin_m

Gotcha. I suspect that a former PN would have picked that out right away. You're right, it doesn't look like it was terribly well researched, but in the end I suspect it was "close enough." I would love to know the name of the one abstention.

franklin_m

Thanks, long overdue. I sent them my first request in 2002. I was still on AD back then, Chief of Staff for a 1-star. In the wake of 911, they'd thrown a "support the troops" or something along those lines along with a flag on the MA cover. I sent an email to the entire board suggesting that if they were really interested in showing support, maybe a discount (same as the give to seniors)?

IRT my email in 2002, I didn't even get the professional courtesy of a response. Not one email from anyone on the entire board. Not even a "thank you for the idea, we're looking into it." Very unprofessional.

rcmiket

+1 this is a great thing. We adopted a club policy years ago that no active duty military pay club dues.

Mike

franklin_m

Mike, that's a great policy, I wish more clubs would follow that rule. Better yet, wouldn't it be nice for AMA to put out a statement that they strongly encourage the practice?

As for AMA writ large, I can deal with lackluster management, some goofed up policies, the glacial pace of actions, etc. Where they really went wrong in my mind was when they started implying that the law means you have be a member to fly part 101. I think organizations are more successful when they create reasons that people WANT to join.

Interestingly enough, DM's column in the September issue hits on the value of membership. I was quite optimistic for about the first 1/3 of the article. Then it quickly devolved into the same old talking points. Largely trying to say the value of membership are these abstract concepts like advocacy, etc. What I wish AMA would do is come to the fundamental realization that were AMA membership not required to fly at many clubs, many fewer people would join. Maybe focus on fixing that problem ... crazy ideas like more and better quality local clubs to take advantage of the strongest reason for membership.

astrohog

My Feedback: (1)

They are way to busy with their indoor flying site than they are with the greater good of the membership........


Astro

rcmiket

I'm dead set against this indoor flying site just more money spent on something that a very small percentage of members will have access to.. Now I want them to justify not helping out our military flyers that once they get out more times than not would become paying members vs FREE youth memberships that don't convert to paying members.

I just don't get it.

Mike

Hydro Junkie

Sounds to me like the EC is jumping on the latest "fad wagon". Quad copters/drones are all the rage now but, give it a couple of years, they will die off in much the same way us builders have. Some new fad will come along and replace them when the newness wears off and "the law" takes the fun out of flying them anywhere one pleases. The "Taj Muncie" indoor "quadrome" will be a monument to the fad the EC thought would be their savior

PLANE JIM

My Feedback: (109)

where does it end? Paid medical, paid toll road fees, a whole host of other services, Being in the military today is voluntary-Someone has to pay for the services-you cannot keep going to the pantry and removing food and never restock.

rcmiket

I see where your coming from and understand. Here's our story. About 10 years ago our club decided to go with no dues for active military. One of the reasons was to say Thanks but most spend most of their time away on deployment or TDY. and never get full use of club facilities. It was met with some resistance by some members for various reasons. Here's how it worked out. Most of them donate regularly to the club kitty along with being their when we need help. More than paying members of most clubs ever do.
I see no issue with reduced AMA dues for them. We do it for seniors.

Just my 2 cents.
Mike

franklin_m

I support it because I've been responsible for many of these fine young Americans. Yes, the medical is paid, but it's "take what we give you and be happy with it." Once you get outside major fleet areas, the San Diegos and Norfolks, life is pretty spartan. At Lemoore for example, there's little if any employment opportunities for spouses, yet 1/2 of the Navy's Hornet fleet is there. In fact, it was the poorest of all 435 Congressional districts while I was there. College education rate 1/2 Norfolk or San Diego. Median income much lower. Schools awful. Furthermore, they're living in an area surrounded by large scale farms, and getting exposed regularly to blowing pesticides and dust. And the dust carries dangers, a bacteria that produces "Valley Fever" in folks not born there (with natural immunities). My SJA came down with a bad case of it and nearly died. And let me share another story. My Sailors were responsible for providing anti-terrorism and force protection for my base. Our manning document said we were supposed to have twice as many as we had to meet mandatory patrols, response time, etc. Yet we didn't have them, and nor did we get relief from requirements. So these E6's and below were working 70+ hours weeks ... for the entire 3 years I was there. Oh, and every so often they get pulled from that duty and assigned IA's, Individual Augmentations, where they're sent overseas to a combat zone for 540 days - instead of shore duty. When they get back, it's back to sea duty and 7-8 month deployments. Some good deal eh?

Even in the Norfolks and San Diegos, the quality of life is better, but now they're fighting cost of living challenges. There's not enough military housing to go around, and that means Sailors and families are trying to find affordable housing in high cost areas. Now mix in folks trying to find good schools, and they're living far from the servicemembers work. Which means high transportation costs. And there's still the work hours ... 40 hours is a slow week.

So yes, I support discounts for E6 and below. I know what they make, I see the financial challenges they face and the sacrifices they make.

Hydro Junkie

And what about the locations that have no base at all? I spent almost two years in Idaho Falls ID. Our facility amounted to a personnel office and a medical clinic. We had to find places to rent, pay for everything and do so on our base pay, housing and food allowances. When I was there, I was an E-4 over 4, meaning I had a base of $952.34, $177.60 in housing, $7 for a variable housing allowance and $175(IIRC) for food. Now, subtract income tax from the base pay at single and one deduction levels and figure out how much I really had to work with. Even today, someone that matched my time and rank gets this:
Food allowance $368.29
Pay for E-4 over 4 $2431.95
Housing W/O Dependents $717(for E-4 and below at Mountain Home ID as Idaho Falls isn't listed as an active site)

This means that, back in my days in Idaho Falls, 30 years ago, I received 1311.94 PRE-TAX
Today, an active duty, single E-4 at Mountain Home ID receives $3517.24 PRE-TAX
The average rent for a one bedroom apartment is now $590 per month,
electricity averages $86.55
water, gas, cable, phone rates were unavailable but, one thing I did find is that to get all utilities connected will cost $138.95 in deposits and hook up fees.
If you consider, for an E-4 over 4, that just rent and electricity costs $676.55 ON AVERAGE in Mountain Home, that leaves just $40.45 left for everything else except food. Today, everyone in the military has to pay for meals, except those on ships so, you might as well consider that the food allowance is a wash. That leaves approximately $2800(post taxes) to cover everything else, meaning gas, rent and utilities not covered by the housing allowance, credit/car payments, automotive repairs/maintenance, insurance, uniform replacement and repairs, etc.
Due to all the above, added to what Franklin said in his last post, I also don't have an issue with giving military personnel a break on fees

init4fun

I see no reason for any generosity toward our veterans to end , and am perfectly happy with any and all benefits they may receive . Yes , yes indeed serving our country is voluntary , and so is becoming a serial killer , we reward the honorable and punish the despicable , and I really see no problem with that type of societal structure .

scottrc

I am not for discounts for anyone. This is a hobby, and everyone should pay a fare and equal amount to be covered under the insurance. Maybe I'm just tired of it all.