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Circle the wagons ! It's Senator writing time !!!!

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Circle the wagons ! It's Senator writing time !!!!

Old 04-20-2016, 05:38 AM
  #101  
init4fun
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Originally Posted by radfordc
Of course traditional model aviation is near death! Look around you at the flying field....a bunch of teetering old men on their last breath. Of course their are a few youngsters flying 3D, helicopters, and now "drones", but traditional "airplanes" are passe. The AMA can pass quietly into the night or change to accommodate the world as it is.
Hi radfordrc ,

And with all due respect , I will counter by saying that unless AMA is successful in it's attempts to force membership (the whole "CBO" farce) , It's already dead anyway !

Yes Sir , there are less and less "traditional" flyers (planes , helis , blimps , ect) but the fact sure seems that this new mode of hobby flight don't lend itself to getting folks to want to join clubs ! In my immediate 20 mile area , there are at least 5 operating "traditional" model airplane/heli clubs and that I know of , not ONE new club startup catering to drones ! Any "park flying" i see is always also some grandpa taking the tyke out to see his first RC lessons and like CombatPigg has said in other threads , I NEVER see groups of droners all hanging out at the field . Never ! And you people think these guys are gonna be our AMA's salvation ?

Methinks you've hitched our wagon to a Horse so dead the flies have come & gone ......
Old 04-20-2016, 06:01 AM
  #102  
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Originally Posted by init4fun
Thank You Bill .


And , that increase was with no 1/4 Million Dollar expendature on the ARRL's part .... Gee , I can't wait to see the huge , dare I say gargantuan , rise in our AMA member numbers once all the Drone flyers sign up , attracted by our organization's irresistable marketing campaign !!!!

"What's that ? something about Hell freezing over first ? Naaa , the droners are gonna ride in and rescue our sagging membership numbers any minute now !"

Or Not ..... I can't wait till the 2016 figures are released and some computer savvy guy like Franklin compiles the last 10 years or so into a nice easy to read spreadsheet for even dinosaurs like me to be able to get the gist of . That's where the rubber will really meet the road , if we haven't seen a damned near Meteoric rise in 2016 numbers our point will be proven of the AMA EC abandoning us who've supported it for the past however many years just to court a group of people who would never have joined anyway !


PS , when the peanut gallery posts up some polyanna BS of how much our AMA has grown , let's not forget to factor in all of the FREE memberships due to the "sign up all your children for free to pad the numbers" campaign ! Gee , In SIX MONTHS the FAA got 300 K signups , and our membership stagnates at less than 200K for a decades old organization . Eight YEARS and we rise by 40 K , and the peanut gallery posts that up as some kind of accomplishment ? Yep , great numbers indeed
That free membership was part of the 145,000 members in 2008 as well. 2015 grew (for the most part) because of drones. 2016 will likely grow because of drone racing.
Old 04-20-2016, 06:06 AM
  #103  
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Originally Posted by Sport_Pilot
That free membership was part of the 145,000 members in 2008 as well. 2015 grew (for the most part) because of drones. 2016 will likely grow because of drone racing.
Call me skeptical ......
Old 04-20-2016, 06:25 AM
  #104  
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Originally Posted by init4fun
Call me skeptical ......
I'm with you there were only 150,000 ( or close to) paying members in 2015 while the AMA claims over 180.000 members we gave away over 50,000 ( number from Model Aviation a few issues back) free youth memberships. I posted this back a few months ago from the EC meeting minutes. Nothing wrong with the youth memberships but come on lets be realistic about membership numbers and growth.

http://www.modelaircraft.org/aboutam...ecminutes.aspx



Mike

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Old 04-20-2016, 06:41 AM
  #105  
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Originally Posted by rcmiket
I'm with you there were only 150,000 ( or close to) paying members in 2015 while the AMA claims over 180.000 members we gave away over 50,000 ( number from Model Aviation a few issues back) free youth memberships. I posted this back a few months ago from the EC meeting minutes. Nothing wrong with the youth memberships but come on lets be realistic about membership numbers and growth.

http://www.modelaircraft.org/aboutam...ecminutes.aspx



Mike
Free or not, they are members. IMO we probably should find ways to give more free or discounted memberships.
Old 04-20-2016, 08:04 AM
  #106  
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Originally Posted by rcmiket
I'm with you there were only 150,000 ( or close to) paying members in 2015 while the AMA claims over 180.000 members we gave away over 50,000 ( number from Model Aviation a few issues back) free youth memberships. I posted this back a few months ago from the EC meeting minutes. Nothing wrong with the youth memberships but come on lets be realistic about membership numbers and growth.

http://www.modelaircraft.org/aboutam...ecminutes.aspx



Mike
Originally Posted by Sport_Pilot
Free or not, they are members. IMO we probably should find ways to give more free or discounted memberships.
But you see Sport , Mike's position is spot on . Believe me I have nothing against youth free memberships either , I used to be a kid myself , raised a couple over the years , and I have a generally quite positive outlook that most of em will turn out to be fine adults . But the fact remains that free memberships do nothing tword "keeping the lights on" as it were , and when an organization with less than 200K members counts a full quarter of those as being paper memberships only , and those free memberships representing the biggest growth sector , Yea , I'd say there's a problem .
Old 04-20-2016, 08:27 AM
  #107  
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Originally Posted by Sport_Pilot
There may have been a time when that would have been smart, but it would have been before 2009. Now recreational quads are model airplanes and married by law. In fact we are in the same boat so it may be better to procreate than to separate.
You are entitled to your opinion, certainly, but joining the quad, FPV, camera-toting flying things crowd is exactly what put us on the FAA's radar. Fixed and rotary wing RC model aircraft flown for fun at AMA sanctioned sites adhering to AMA Safety guidelines, have NOTHING in common with this new crop of UAV. The only way to protect ourselves and the industry that supplies us from onerous regulations (and fees) is to draw a very clear distinction. The AMA SHOULD be making every effort to do that for us! The first step is for the AMA to delineate between the two and offer totally separate insurance policies, then lobby Congress that in fact, what we RC aircraft hobbyists have been safely doing for 5 decades has ZERO in common with the aforementioned flying thingz now invading public air space!
Old 04-20-2016, 08:31 AM
  #108  
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Originally Posted by init4fun
But you see Sport , Mike's position is spot on . Believe me I have nothing against youth free memberships either , I used to be a kid myself , raised a couple over the years , and I have a generally quite positive outlook that most of em will turn out to be fine adults . But the fact remains that free memberships do nothing tword "keeping the lights on" as it were , and when an organization with less than 200K members counts a full quarter of those as being paper memberships only , and those free memberships representing the biggest growth sector , Yea , I'd say there's a problem .

I don't see it as a problem at all. The press will be reporting the full membership including the youth membership. I see that as a plus not a minus. Would you really want them to report the fact that a good portion is youth membership? Or just the lower amount without youth membership? What is a problem is the overall number could be larger. When was the last time it was updated for 2016? Is it lower now because many have not renewed? If not why is the AMA not reminding those to renew? We may need more publicity or advertisement to get the numbers up. What is the problem there? But IMO youth membership is not the problem. In fact it would be nice if more people asked for youth membership.
Old 04-20-2016, 08:36 AM
  #109  
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Originally Posted by Sport_Pilot
I don't see it as a problem at all. The press will be reporting the full membership including the youth membership. I see that as a plus not a minus. Would you really want them to report the fact that a good portion is youth membership? Or just the lower amount without youth membership? What is a problem is the overall number could be larger. When was the last time it was updated for 2016? Is it lower now because many have not renewed? If not why is the AMA not reminding those to renew? We may need more publicity or advertisement to get the numbers up. What is the problem there? But IMO youth membership is not the problem. In fact it would be nice if more people asked for youth membership.
So tell me Sport , just how many lobbyists do you think those non existing dues are gonna hire ?
Old 04-20-2016, 08:36 AM
  #110  
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You are entitled to your opinion, certainly, but joining the quad, FPV, camera-toting flying things crowd is exactly what put us on the FAA's radar
Not at all we have been on the radar from back in the 70's when the FAA wanted to regulate us back then but changed their minds. It's not about safety in fact most reports are made up and solicited to boast FAA's claim that regulation is needed. Since the FAA engages in fiction it is better to join the other victims of this intimidation.
Old 04-20-2016, 08:37 AM
  #111  
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Originally Posted by init4fun
So tell me Sport , just how many lobbyists do you think those non existing dues are gonna hire ?
So now you want to charge a youth membership to hire a lobbyist? I don't see how that would help, it would only lower the membership numbers. We need more not less.
Old 04-20-2016, 08:38 AM
  #112  
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100 percent spot on Sport Pilot.
Old 04-20-2016, 10:50 AM
  #113  
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Originally Posted by init4fun
But the fact remains that free memberships do nothing tword "keeping the lights on" as it were , and when an organization with less than 200K members counts a full quarter of those as being paper memberships only , and those free memberships representing the biggest growth sector , Yea , I'd say there's a problem .
In terms of keeping the lights on, I also argue we need to pay close attention to how our money is being spent, and here's why:

As a tax exempt organization, the AMA is required to make public it's IRS 990's, and those disclose the compensation for key individuals. Per page 8, line 1, of the most recent 990 publically available (2013), the AMA's Executive Director made a total of $136,871. Per City-Data, the median income of everyone in Muncie is just $26,292, and the median income for the entire state of Indiana is just $47,529.

So, in 2013 dollars, that means we paid the ED 5.2 times the median income in Muncie, and 2.9 times the median state-wide income. That put the AMA's Executive Director in the top 1.5% of all wage earners in Muncie and in the top 3.9% of all wage earners in the entire state of Indiana.

Is that how our non-profit should be spending our money? How many of us are in the top 3.9% of all wage earners in our state? I venture a guess not many.


AMA's IRS 990 for 2013 - https://projects.propublica.org/nonp...ions/520799408
Local and state income info - http://www.city-data.com/income/inco...e-Indiana.html
Old 04-20-2016, 11:12 AM
  #114  
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Originally Posted by franklin_m
In terms of keeping the lights on, I also argue we need to pay close attention to how our money is being spent, and here's why:

As a tax exempt organization, the AMA is required to make public it's IRS 990's, and those disclose the compensation for key individuals. Per page 8, line 1, of the most recent 990 publically available (2013), the AMA's Executive Director made a total of $136,871. Per City-Data, the median income of everyone in Muncie is just $26,292, and the median income for the entire state of Indiana is just $47,529.

So, in 2013 dollars, that means we paid the ED 5.2 times the median income in Muncie, and 2.9 times the median state-wide income. That put the AMA's Executive Director in the top 1.5% of all wage earners in Muncie and in the top 3.9% of all wage earners in the entire state of Indiana.

Is that how our non-profit should be spending our money? How many of us are in the top 3.9% of all wage earners in our state? I venture a guess not many.


AMA's IRS 990 for 2013 - https://projects.propublica.org/nonp...ions/520799408
Local and state income info - http://www.city-data.com/income/inco...e-Indiana.html
Excellent points. And while I have NO PROBLEM paying someone very well, it is reasonable to expect a good return on our investment. Exactly what has the AMA done to protect the heart and soul of their membership from onerous government regulations? IF we (fixed and rotary wing) hobbyists who fly at AMA sanctioned clubs and events, had done something to put ourselves in jeopardy, then it would be difficult to expect AMA to successfully defend bad or dangerous behavior, but such is NOT THE CASE. Until multi-rotor drones and FPV UAVs came into vogue, the FAA left us alone and in many ways, PROMOTED the model aircraft hobby.
When the AMA invited the new crop of drones into the fold, the rest us became FAA targets as well. To my way of thinking, in comparison to other Indiana residents the AMA ED is paid exceedingly well for doing a poor job of protecting our interests.
Old 04-20-2016, 11:18 AM
  #115  
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Originally Posted by Sport_Pilot
So now you want to charge a youth membership to hire a lobbyist? I don't see how that would help, it would only lower the membership numbers. We need more not less.
Twist Twist Spin Spin little fishie , really Sport , that's the best ya got ? ...... No I never once said a thing about wanting to charge youth members to hire a lobbyist , I merely stated the fact that membership category doesn't generate the funds to do so . You are the one proposing charging them , I'm merely pointing out that members VS dollars available to hire a lobbyist , we don't have almost 200K peoples worth of membership dues to do so with , more like 150K .

But if you and the peanut gallery really want to try to charge them , well , good luck with that

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Old 04-20-2016, 11:28 AM
  #116  
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Originally Posted by TimJ
Ooops.....So much for the myth that model aviation is dying.

http://www.popsci.com/big-fight-over-little-airplanes

"For the AMA, education is the way forward to the safe, drone-filled skies of tomorrow.
Logistically, that's a bit of a challenge. While the AMA’s membership is growing, with a reported increase from around 145,000 members in 2008 to 188,000 members in 2015, the ranks of drone pilots are growing much faster. The FAA announced that 300,000 drone owners registered in the first month the registry was open, which is already more people than there are AMA members. "
So much for the AMA not getting their message out there too. Was is just ironic luck that a huge national magazine happened to stumble upon this story, and folks from the AMA sitting around?
Old 04-20-2016, 11:31 AM
  #117  
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Originally Posted by franklin_m
In terms of keeping the lights on, I also argue we need to pay close attention to how our money is being spent, and here's why:

As a tax exempt organization, the AMA is required to make public it's IRS 990's, and those disclose the compensation for key individuals. Per page 8, line 1, of the most recent 990 publically available (2013), the AMA's Executive Director made a total of $136,871. Per City-Data, the median income of everyone in Muncie is just $26,292, and the median income for the entire state of Indiana is just $47,529.

So, in 2013 dollars, that means we paid the ED 5.2 times the median income in Muncie, and 2.9 times the median state-wide income. That put the AMA's Executive Director in the top 1.5% of all wage earners in Muncie and in the top 3.9% of all wage earners in the entire state of Indiana.

Is that how our non-profit should be spending our money? How many of us are in the top 3.9% of all wage earners in our state? I venture a guess not many.


AMA's IRS 990 for 2013 - https://projects.propublica.org/nonp...ions/520799408
Local and state income info - http://www.city-data.com/income/inco...e-Indiana.html
Thank You Franklin for bringing this fact to this thread !

Again , it's further proof that the AMA EC will do anything to benefit itself at the expense of the members . If he took "only" even $100K , still over TWICE the median income , there would be $36K left over right there to pay the lobbyist so Sport & the peanut gallery will stop wanting to charge the youth members for it ....
Old 04-20-2016, 11:31 AM
  #118  
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Originally Posted by init4fun
Twist Twist Spin Spin little fishie , really Sport , that's the best ya got ? ...... No I never once said a thing about wanting to charge youth members to hire a lobbyist , I merely stated the fact that membership category doesn't generate the funds to do so . You are the one proposing charging them , I'm merely pointing out that members VS dollars available to hire a lobbyist , we don't have almost 200K peoples worth of membership dues to do so with , more like 150K .

But if you and the peanut gallery really want to try to charge them , well , good luck with that
It's not about generating funds so I still don't understand the supposed problem. You complain about reporting them as members but you don't want to do anything about it. I think your issue is membership in general so your complaint about youth membership is apparently just a canard.
Old 04-20-2016, 11:37 AM
  #119  
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Originally Posted by init4fun
Thank You Franklin for bringing this fact to this thread !

Again , it's further proof that the AMA EC will do anything to benefit itself at the expense of the members . If he took "only" even $100K , still over TWICE the median income , there would be $36K right there to pay the lobbyist so Sport & the peanut gallery will stop wanting to charge the youth members for it ....
I don't know why Muncie is so poor but IMO almost $140,000 is cheap. I think the owner of a convenience store would make more. I haven't seen CEO pay that cheap since the 90's. Heck my pay is nearing the $100K mark.

Might be better to fire him and hire a more qualified person for the average 700K figure for CEO's.

http://www1.salary.com/Chief-Executi...er-salary.html

Really! You don't understand that a CEO salary of less than the average house price is cheap?
Old 04-20-2016, 11:46 AM
  #120  
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Originally Posted by franklin_m
In terms of keeping the lights on, I also argue we need to pay close attention to how our money is being spent, and here's why:

As a tax exempt organization, the AMA is required to make public it's IRS 990's, and those disclose the compensation for key individuals. Per page 8, line 1, of the most recent 990 publically available (2013), the AMA's Executive Director made a total of $136,871. Per City-Data, the median income of everyone in Muncie is just $26,292, and the median income for the entire state of Indiana is just $47,529.

So, in 2013 dollars, that means we paid the ED 5.2 times the median income in Muncie, and 2.9 times the median state-wide income. That put the AMA's Executive Director in the top 1.5% of all wage earners in Muncie and in the top 3.9% of all wage earners in the entire state of Indiana.

Is that how our non-profit should be spending our money? How many of us are in the top 3.9% of all wage earners in our state? I venture a guess not many.


AMA's IRS 990 for 2013 - https://projects.propublica.org/nonp...ions/520799408
Local and state income info - http://www.city-data.com/income/inco...e-Indiana.html
Great job breaking down the salary as compared to Muncie, but that's almost completely irrelevant. How about comparing that salary against another ED or CEO of a similar company, or non profit. Did you note if that was salary, or total value of compensation?
Great job
Old 04-20-2016, 01:15 PM
  #121  
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Originally Posted by Sport_Pilot
............ I think your issue is membership in general...........
BINGO ! We have a Winner !!!!!

Yes indeed Sport , My issue IS membership , most specifically , THE LACK OF IT !!!!!!!!!

We have spent better than $250K , the FAA's registrations went over the 300K mark , and we couldn't even muster close to 200K people ?

The handwriting IS on the wall , Just must be written in invisible ink for some .....
Old 04-20-2016, 02:36 PM
  #122  
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Originally Posted by init4fun
BINGO ! We have a Winner !!!!!

Yes indeed Sport , My issue IS membership , most specifically , THE LACK OF IT !!!!!!!!!

We have spent better than $250K , the FAA's registrations went over the 300K mark , and we couldn't even muster close to 200K people ?

The handwriting IS on the wall , Just must be written in invisible ink for some .....
The song and dance about AMA being ineffective in protecting our hobby/sport being due to lack of sufficient funds and numbers of members is getting really stale. For decades AMA has whined about this and much of the discretionary spending and effort expended has been in pursuit of these resources to increase their power and control, i.e., getting ready to get ready to do something.
The real problem isn't a lack of 'clout,' it is a problem of putting legitimate mission-related objectives on the back burner while chasing rainbows in pursuit of more control and fiscal security.
Old 04-20-2016, 02:56 PM
  #123  
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Originally Posted by cj_rumley
The song and dance about AMA being ineffective in protecting our hobby/sport being due to lack of sufficient funds and numbers of members is getting really stale. For decades AMA has whined about this and much of the discretionary spending and effort expended has been in pursuit of these resources to increase their power and control, i.e., getting ready to get ready to do something.
The real problem isn't a lack of 'clout,' it is a problem of putting legitimate mission-related objectives on the back burner while chasing rainbows in pursuit of more control and fiscal security.
Someone posted that wonderful article about fostering active membership from Dave Scott. Maybe if the AMA needs to follow their own advice. If the AMA would follow Dave Scott's advice, when you search Academy of Model Aeronautics the organization would look fun instead of appearing at first glance as a prohibitive and overwhelming authoritarian organization........
Old 04-20-2016, 03:58 PM
  #124  
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Originally Posted by cj_rumley
The song and dance about AMA being ineffective in protecting our hobby/sport being due to lack of sufficient funds and numbers of members is getting really stale. For decades AMA has whined about this and much of the discretionary spending and effort expended has been in pursuit of these resources to increase their power and control, i.e., getting ready to get ready to do something.
The real problem isn't a lack of 'clout,' it is a problem of putting legitimate mission-related objectives on the back burner while chasing rainbows in pursuit of more control and fiscal security.
CJ , when your right , your right , and I can 100% agree with you that the mission of protecting ALL of aero modeling took a back seat to the EC trying to protect their back sides ...
Old 04-20-2016, 05:09 PM
  #125  
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Originally Posted by TimJ
Someone posted that wonderful article about fostering active membership from Dave Scott. Maybe if the AMA needs to follow their own advice. If the AMA would follow Dave Scott's advice, when you search Academy of Model Aeronautics the organization would look fun instead of appearing at first glance as a prohibitive and overwhelming authoritarian organization........
But we can't forget that under AMA's leadership, there's been a "15-year trend of declining club membership."

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