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Old 04-19-2016, 09:37 AM
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Default Interesting admission on AMA website

On AMA website and as we'll see in the May issue of MA, Dave Scott may have inadvertently revealed something that starts to explain a lot of the AMA actions. And I quote from the first sentence after the last photo in the post:

".. and help stem the 15-year trend of declining club membership .."

Now I'm no rocket scientist, but declining club membership in the face of either fixed or increasing costs to maintain club flying sites, either means big hikes in club dues or more clubs folding. Think about that in the context of the 400 clubs that didn't renew memberships. Think about that in terms of clubs that are listed on AMA website but don't respond to emails etc.

This cannot be good news

http://modelaviation.com/fostering-active-clubs
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Old 04-19-2016, 10:06 AM
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Overall a great article that every AMA member should ready.

Although I don't agree with the 15 year decline reference, the article asks you to promote positive reinforcement at the field.

good stuff.
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Old 04-19-2016, 10:12 AM
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Originally Posted by franklin_m View Post
On AMA website and as we'll see in the May issue of MA, Dave Scott may have inadvertently revealed something that starts to explain a lot of the AMA actions. And I quote from the first sentence after the last photo in the post:

".. and help stem the 15-year trend of declining club membership .."

Now I'm no rocket scientist, but declining club membership in the face of either fixed or increasing costs to maintain club flying sites, either means big hikes in club dues or more clubs folding. Think about that in the context of the 400 clubs that didn't renew memberships. Think about that in terms of clubs that are listed on AMA website but don't respond to emails etc.

This cannot be good news

http://modelaviation.com/fostering-active-clubs
Thank You Franklin for posting that .

There will be those who try to discredit the man's words about the 15 year decline , as though they know more than Dave Scott , who obviously should have asked the peanut gallery in post two whether his 15 year decline fact was correct or not . The newest trend in RC flight needs no club field to be practiced in , and thus eliminates their need to belong to the biggest club , the AMA , which one traditionally HAD to belong to in order to fly at the local AMA chartered club's field .....
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Old 04-19-2016, 10:21 AM
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Originally Posted by init4fun View Post
Thank You Franklin for posting that .

There will be those who try to discredit the man's words about the 15 year decline , as though they know more than Dave Scott , who obviously should have asked the peanut gallery in post two whether his 15 year decline fact was correct or not . The newest trend in RC flight needs no club field to be practiced in , and thus eliminates their need to belong to the biggest club , the AMA , which one traditionally HAD to belong to in order to fly at the local AMA chartered club's field .....
However, "the newest trend in RC flight" has resulted in a DISASTER for model aircraft hobbyists! Prior to the onslaught of "drones" and the AMA's rush to bring them into the fold, RC fixed and rotary-wing aircraft co-existed with local municipalities quite nicely.
In hind-sight, the AMA NEVER SHOULD HAVE INCLUDED CAMERA CARRYING DRONES AS JUST ANOTHER FACET OF RC MODEL AIRCRAFT!

Now we have the draconian Senate Bill 2658: Federal Aviation Administration Reauthorization Act of 2016 which will DESTROY our hobby forever! I read the entire 296 page bill and have created a sheet of 'highlights' that every RC model aircraft hobbyist had BETTER pay attention to! I would be happy to post it here, if anyone is interested.Please immediately go the AMA website and write your Senator in support of Amendment 3596, which EXCLUDES RC aircraft hobbyists from the crushing regulations imposed by SB 2658!

http://www.modelaircraft.org/aboutama/gov.aspx
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Old 04-19-2016, 10:34 AM
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Originally Posted by RichardGee View Post
However, "the newest trend in RC flight" has resulted in a DISASTER for model aircraft hobbyists! Prior to the onslaught of "drones" and the AMA's rush to bring them into the fold, RC fixed and rotary-wing aircraft co-existed with local municipalities quite nicely.
In hind-sight, the AMA NEVER SHOULD HAVE INCLUDED CAMERA CARRYING DRONES AS JUST ANOTHER FACET OF RC MODEL AIRCRAFT!

Now we have the draconian Senate Bill 2658: Federal Aviation Administration Reauthorization Act of 2016 which will DESTROY our hobby forever! I read the entire 296 page bill and have created a sheet of 'highlights' that every RC model aircraft hobbyist had BETTER pay attention to! I would be happy to post it here, if anyone is interested.Please immediately go the AMA website and write your Senator in support of Amendment 3596, which EXCLUDES RC aircraft hobbyists from the crushing regulations imposed by SB 2658!

http://www.modelaircraft.org/aboutama/gov.aspx
My Friend , I am init4fun , AMA 80274 , and the person who started the "was the AMA right or wrong to embrace Drones" thread , and Believe me , you & I are both on the same side of this issue !

If you have not yet , please go put a vote in for the AMA making a mistake to allow the flying cameras , if for no other reason than to watch the politically correct "we gotta accept drones as the wave of the future" folk's heads spin and tell us how much of Luddites we are ...

They're off looking it up now ....... "Siri , what's a Luddite ?"
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Old 04-19-2016, 10:48 AM
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Originally Posted by init4fun View Post
My Friend , I am init4fun , AMA 80274 , and the person who started the "was the AMA right or wrong to embrace Drones" thread , and Believe me , you & I are both on the same side of this issue !

If you have not yet , please go put a vote in for the AMA making a mistake to allow the flying cameras , if for no other reason than to watch the politically correct "we gotta accept drones as the wave of the future" folk's heads spin and tell us how much of Luddites we are ...

They're off looking it up now ....... "Siri , what's a Luddite ?"
Dear Mr. Mathews (davem@modelaircraft.org), President, AMA:

I know I am not alone in expressing this opinion –

As a model aircraft enthusiast of over 40 years (AMA 101024) I want to state my opposition to the AMA allowing camera-carrying drones to be part of the model aircraft community.
Because of this, we who fly our fixed and rotary-wing RC aircraft in accordance with the AMA Safety Code, at sanctioned AMA club sites, now find our historically safe activities threatened by draconian FAA regulations that WILL destroy this hobby!

Yes, we can petition our Senators for exceptions – such as Sen. Inhofe’s amendment 3596, but this is a band aid AT BEST!

Inviting camera-carrying and FPV drones into the AMA modeling fold also invited the Federal Aviation Administration to regulate and tax our hobby.

It is past time the AMA separate this new type of RC aircraft from traditional RC fixed and rotary-wing aircraft that fly exclusively at AMA sanctioned sites and events, obeying AMA safety codes that have existed for decades.
Doing any less WILL BE THE DEMISE OF RC MODEL AIRCRAFT.
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Old 04-19-2016, 10:50 AM
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I don't need much investigation to figure out that's exactly the problem Franklin. It is getting harder and harder to find a place to fly and the avg age of members is climbing. I see very few young people joining our club or others. When you go to a fly in it's almost always attended by a bunch of old guys like myself. Drones are where it's at for the go-pro you tube generation, and the AMA and the manufacturers, and hobby dealers know that is where the money is. If I didn't need a club to fly my gas planes from I would not belong to the AMA anymore. If I decide to fly only park flyers I would not even bother with the park flyer membership.
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Old 04-19-2016, 11:05 AM
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Originally Posted by RichardGee View Post
Dear Mr. Mathews (davem@modelaircraft.org), President, AMA:

I know I am not alone in expressing this opinion –

As a model aircraft enthusiast of over 40 years (AMA 101024) I want to state my opposition to the AMA allowing camera-carrying drones to be part of the model aircraft community.
Because of this, we who fly our fixed and rotary-wing RC aircraft in accordance with the AMA Safety Code, at sanctioned AMA club sites, now find our historically safe activities threatened by draconian FAA regulations that WILL destroy this hobby!

Yes, we can petition our Senators for exceptions – such as Sen. Inhofe’s amendment 3596, but this is a band aid AT BEST!

Inviting camera-carrying and FPV drones into the AMA modeling fold also invited the Federal Aviation Administration to regulate and tax our hobby.

It is past time the AMA separate this new type of RC aircraft from traditional RC fixed and rotary-wing aircraft that fly exclusively at AMA sanctioned sites and events, obeying AMA safety codes that have existed for decades.
Doing any less WILL BE THE DEMISE OF RC MODEL AIRCRAFT.

Exactly and very well written ......

Thing is , there are those among us who would paint us as some type of model aircraft racists for not wanting to see this new category of RC flight run ripshod over our existing hobby . I have never once advocated for any outright bans on FPV/BLOS operations , I have advocated for that advancement being SUCH a technological leap as to put the flying camera into it's very own class of flight apart from "Traditional" LOS RC as we have practiced for decades . The precedent does exist in the full scale world that the FAA is trying so hard to slam our round peg into the square hole of , one needs to look no further than the different classifications of operations between a "regular" General Aviation light aircraft (like a Cessna 172 for example) VS the operational conditions of the "Ultralight" . The Ultralight is it's own separate category just as the FPV/BLOS able craft that happens to share some of our equipment should be it's own category as well , with it's own dedicated organization advocating for it's special operating conditions .

The AMA EC saw big dollars in future Drone ops , and threw us "traditional" RCers under the Bus in their chase for the almighty Drone Dollar !

Last edited by init4fun; 04-19-2016 at 11:12 AM. Reason: darned typos again ....
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Old 04-19-2016, 11:10 AM
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Originally Posted by franklin_m View Post
On AMA website and as we'll see in the May issue of MA, Dave Scott may have inadvertently revealed something that starts to explain a lot of the AMA actions. And I quote from the first sentence after the last photo in the post:

".. and help stem the 15-year trend of declining club membership .."

Now I'm no rocket scientist, but declining club membership in the face of either fixed or increasing costs to maintain club flying sites, either means big hikes in club dues or more clubs folding. Think about that in the context of the 400 clubs that didn't renew memberships. Think about that in terms of clubs that are listed on AMA website but don't respond to emails etc.

This cannot be good news

http://modelaviation.com/fostering-active-clubs
LoL..."inadvertently revealed"...it's almost as if he didn't realize he was writing what he was writing!!! How absent minded of him. Too funny!

Talk about spinning the rest of the article to fit the continued narrative of doom and gloom, and the impending demise of the hobby/AMA. How about you include the whole quote/story, or would that not have the same impact. Did you confirm that 400 clubs didn't actually renew yet? Memberships ebb and flow at both the national and local level, nothing new there.

The hobby nor the AMA is going anywhere anytime soon......and the overwhelming amount of people are going to keep on flying like they always have. Does anyone have a specific example of something drastically changing the way their club operates, or they way they fly? I haven't seen a single story yet about clubs folding because of a drop in membership, at least not here. And please, anyone that's involved in this hobby has means...to be involved in this hobby. Sure, 99% of us have some budget constraints, but an extra $10-20 here or there isn't breaking anybody...c'mon.

If clubs are suffering from a decline in membership, they should forgo the pity party and blame and look inwards. Sort of the same that goes for local hobby shops. That's usually the first place to look for opportunities and solutions. Are they active in the community, or are they a cloistered closed to the public operation. Do they welcome youth, do they host events for the public. Do they exclude helis...or the black plague of RC...MR/Drones? Is the leadership open to new ideas, or is it the same good 'ol boy network that SO many on these threads seem to complain about. When clubs lose big chunks of membership, it's usually an internal issue, NOT an external one. If they can't adapt and move with the changes, they are doomed to ultimate failure and have nobody (or no machines) to blame but themselves.
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Old 04-19-2016, 11:23 AM
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Originally Posted by raptureboy View Post
I don't need much investigation to figure out that's exactly the problem Franklin. It is getting harder and harder to find a place to fly and the avg age of members is climbing. I see very few young people joining our club or others. When you go to a fly in it's almost always attended by a bunch of old guys like myself. Drones are where it's at for the go-pro you tube generation, and the AMA and the manufacturers, and hobby dealers know that is where the money is. If I didn't need a club to fly my gas planes from I would not belong to the AMA anymore. If I decide to fly only park flyers I would not even bother with the park flyer membership.
How is it getting harder to find a place to fly, do you mean at a club, or "freestyling" like at an open field, or park? I doubt the average age of membership has climbed in any significant manner, the hobby is 80 years old and while it may seem like there are a lot of older dudes around, I'd bet the average age hasn't really jumped that much in the past 20-30 years. I get that it's easy and popular to throw ones hands up and lay every ill of the hobby on drones and the AMA's seeming yuuuuge reach for this alleged pot of gold via drones, I don't see it. They have never bet the farm on one technology, and they aren't doing it now. I don't see any great conspiracy with manufactures...if that was the case why have we never seen this in the past...when control line, or nitro, or gassers etc etc came into the fold?

As for the clubs and who is joining...as I indicated above,what is the club doing about it. Do they think the average kid is just going to stumble down to the field and ask to join? Sorry, this is the clubs responsibility (after the AMA's) to get people interested. Forming and cultivating relationships with local hobby shops (we work with 3 in our area), having members who love to build and share that gift go into schools (STEM) or Science Olympics and help the students learn how to build. Any of the clubs reach out to cub scout packs, girl scout packs, Boy Scout Troops...or better yet Civil Air Patrol squadrons? Is a club willing to front the start up costs for the hobby to a young kid looking to get into it, but might not have the means to?

What are the clubs that you are involved with doing to promote themselves?
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Old 04-19-2016, 11:27 AM
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Originally Posted by raptureboy View Post
I don't need much investigation to figure out that's exactly the problem Franklin. It is getting harder and harder to find a place to fly and the avg age of members is climbing. I see very few young people joining our club or others. When you go to a fly in it's almost always attended by a bunch of old guys like myself. Drones are where it's at for the go-pro you tube generation, and the AMA and the manufacturers, and hobby dealers know that is where the money is. If I didn't need a club to fly my gas planes from I would not belong to the AMA anymore. If I decide to fly only park flyers I would not even bother with the park flyer membership.
For me, I could pay $100 a year on top of AMA, and for that get to fly nitro at a rough grass field 13 miles away. Or I could fly .25 size and below electric, or any size nitro heli, or nitro CL, and fly 200 yards from my house. If I'm willing to fly 500 and below electric helis or smaller electrics, I can fly 50 yards from my house. Either way I can put the $100 a year into batteries, equipment, or kits.

Since I switched to stuff I can fly within walking distance, I'm flying WAY more often - which isn't that really the goal? I'll probably keep my nitro stuff and just throw floats on them, and fly at local lake.

Either way, no need for a club, and one could argue no need for ama either.
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Old 04-19-2016, 11:28 AM
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Moot point, as CNN just posted update about Senate Bill 2658: Federal Aviation Administration Reauthorization Act of 2016 PASSING the Senate today by a nearly unanimous vote, including all the drone detritus contained therein. It further states the "bill now returns to the House for reconciliation of amendments".
Unless someone KNOWS SPECIFICALLY THAT AMA SUGGESTIONS FOR CHANGES WERE INCORPORATED, they (Senate) have now passed into LAW what amounts to the first FEDERAL LAW ever mandated to the FAA to control model aviation (under the guise of "managing the burgeoning drone industry" and "ensuring safety in our airspace".
Yee ha. Time to party down....

AND a great b\g bear hug to all those AMA leaders (elected or appointed) who really STOOD UP to make the g-d drone menace "NOT" model aircraft. Yessiree, Bob, they did a DANDY job of helping the majority of AMA members (MODEL AIRCRAFT OPERATORS) be kept separately defined and regulated NOT as drones. Way to go, good ol' boys.

Last edited by Bob Pastorello; 04-19-2016 at 11:32 AM.
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Old 04-19-2016, 11:33 AM
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Bob , when we have an AMA EC that sees us as the past , and drones as the AMA's future , I expected nothing less than to be ran over by the regulatory Bus .......
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Old 04-19-2016, 11:35 AM
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Originally Posted by init4fun View Post
Bob , when we have an AMA EC that sees us as the past , and drones as the AMA's future , I expected nothing less than to be ran over by the regulatory Bus .......
All due respect, that's your opinion of how the EC sees "us". Accepting one method of flying (MR/Drones) is hardly the AMA turning it's back on 80 years of "traditional" flying.
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Old 04-19-2016, 11:37 AM
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init - +1
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Old 04-19-2016, 11:39 AM
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I think that what the "AMA should hate drones" folks forget is that drones are here and the resultant legislation would have happened no matter what. To blame the AMA for the legislation brought on by idiot drone fliers is not productive.

Just my $0.02 worth. YMMV.
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Old 04-19-2016, 11:41 AM
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Originally Posted by Krumpel View Post
I think that what the "AMA should hate drones" folks forget is that drones are here and the resultant legislation would have happened no matter what. To blame the AMA for the legislation brought on by idiot drone fliers is not productive.

Just my $0.02 worth. YMMV.
+100
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Old 04-19-2016, 11:47 AM
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Not a law until it gets to the president's desk and is signed by him.
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Old 04-19-2016, 11:51 AM
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Does ANYONE think, even a little, that Mr. Obama would **NOT** sign the biggest anit-terrorist, aviation and safety reform bill produced in his administration???? ANYONE????
Too much political capital at risk to do so, IMO, with everything else in his Situation Room.
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Old 04-19-2016, 12:19 PM
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I think it was the White House that put the fire under the FAA's behind. It will be signed.

Nothing will change regarding the irresponsible drone user, but people will still be relieved that the government finally did something.

At some point, once the hysteria dies down, we're going to need to go back and see if we can be excluded if we don't utilize FPV or onboard cameras. Perhaps we'll have to dump AMA and start our own association.
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Old 04-19-2016, 12:29 PM
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Originally Posted by Bob Pastorello View Post
Moot point, as CNN just posted update about Senate Bill 2658: Federal Aviation Administration Reauthorization Act of 2016 PASSING the Senate today by a nearly unanimous vote, including all the drone detritus contained therein. It further states the "bill now returns to the House for reconciliation of amendments".
Unless someone KNOWS SPECIFICALLY THAT AMA SUGGESTIONS FOR CHANGES WERE INCORPORATED, they (Senate) have now passed into LAW what amounts to the first FEDERAL LAW ever mandated to the FAA to control model aviation (under the guise of "managing the burgeoning drone industry" and "ensuring safety in our airspace".
Yee ha. Time to party down....

AND a great b\g bear hug to all those AMA leaders (elected or appointed) who really STOOD UP to make the g-d drone menace "NOT" model aircraft. Yessiree, Bob, they did a DANDY job of helping the majority of AMA members (MODEL AIRCRAFT OPERATORS) be kept separately defined and regulated NOT as drones. Way to go, good ol' boys.
btw: I wrote that Dave Mathewson was 'AMA President' when in fact he is Executive Director... that said:

Everyone has their own motivations for flying RC aircraft. IF it were all about flying as much as possible, then some of us would be flying indoor heli's, micro RC, and other tiny electrics. Personally, I would sooner swallow a shut gun than be relegated to those types of RC toys, but that's just me.
Since I prefer big, gas burning, prop ripping, fixed wing giants, I NEED an RC airport and have invested thousands of my dollars, plus sweat equity, into making sure that in fact I have access to just such a flying venue! AMA has always been integral to that safe endeavor.

I have NO PROBLEM AT ALL with RC flying things of ALL TYPES, but I have a MAJOR PROBLEM when my aircraft, operated at an FBO in adherence with AMA safety codes, are lumped together with the 10 year old kid flying a cheap camera-equipped drone over the neighbor's pool where the 18 year old hottie is sun-bathing.
Hey, if flying tiny electrics or multi-rotor drones is your thing, knock yourself out!

But for God's sake AMA, DON'T allow the SAFE operation of my miniature aircraft to be regulated out of existence!!

Looks like our only hope now is to make sure we can get the Senate to pass Inhofe's amendment 3596 which offers some protections for RC model aircraft hobbyists -
http://amablog.modelaircraft.org/ama...he-senate-now/
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Old 04-19-2016, 12:29 PM
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Originally Posted by init4fun View Post
Bob , when we have an AMA EC that sees us as the past , and drones as the AMA's future , I expected nothing less than to be ran over by the regulatory Bus .......
Well, the good news is that Inhofe's amendment contains language (presuming AMA's lobbying for what they deem is good for us succeeds) that reinforces the CBO's private concession on marketing the privilege of flying a model airplane and forces FAA to recognize them, ie., AMA and all the other CBO's..
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Old 04-19-2016, 12:30 PM
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Should we NOT embrace the cultural diversity and enrichment that our Drone Brethren bestow upon us...?
Shun the Drones...?
Well I've never heard of so much ignorant, xenophobic bigotry....!
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Old 04-19-2016, 01:00 PM
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Originally Posted by combatpigg View Post
Should we NOT embrace the cultural diversity and enrichment that our Drone Brethren bestow upon us...?
Shun the Drones...?
Well I've never heard of so much ignorant, xenophobic bigotry....!
You're on the right path...but forgot Multirotors....which as you know can be very different than drones.
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Old 04-19-2016, 01:02 PM
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Originally Posted by cj_rumley View Post
Well, the good news is that Inhofe's amendment contains language (presuming AMA's lobbying for what they deem is good for us succeeds) that reinforces the CBO's private concession on marketing the privilege of flying a model airplane and forces FAA to recognize them, ie., AMA and all the other CBO's..
One might say the AMA is working not only on their own behalf (and ours as members of course)...but also for other potential CBO not yet formed, who may in fact be competitors. Ironic no?
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