init4fun

Hi CJ ,

As to the subject of "thread drift" , all threads drift , and a friendly side conversation or two have never derailed a thread or caused discord among the posters . When , however , that drift takes the form of repeated "So , do you still beat your wife" type "leading" questions , then it rises to the level of being trolling , and harassment , and I will use the moderation system to eradicate this wherever I see it . Last night , because I wouldn't respond to him here , he went and bumped 3 or 4 of my old posts , posting his trolling garbage not so well disguised as he'd like to think it is . The sheer fact that in an hour's time he bumped 3 or 4 of my posts with questions intended to provide a negative response proves harassment & trolling right there . Now , no matter how many of my old posts he goes and bumps with no matter how many leading questions he asks , I intend to not respond and let Ken do the moderating that needs to be done . I'm not the one looking for a fight here just as Franklin wasn't the one looking for a fight in his thread either , I'm looking for a serious conversation about AMA finances . When I have looked over the 990 in detail I'm sure I will have further questions , the biggest question for right now is will those questions be met with the same harassment from the same person , or will he finally be dealt with by then ?

PS , just so you all know , I DO appreciate the 990 suggestion . You see , I'm not on any kinds of any "anti AMA" mission here whatsoever . I'm curious as to how our organization deals with it's finances . From how it's made to how it's spent , and how that's reported to us , that's what I'm interested in . If it's a bad thing to want to know how an organization a person is associated with runs , and to be able to talk about it in a discussion forum dedicated to that very organization , might as well shut the whole AMA forum here down , cause in that case there really wouldn't be that much left to talk about .

rcmiket

If anyone wants to pay dues to our club $60.00 a year we can discuss getting you requested paperwork. If you want them copied and shipped you'll have to pay all expenses incurred, fair enough? Trust me it ain't worth the effort but if your willing to join just for that we'll be happy to take your money.
Once again a civil discussion is dragged through the mud and off course........................and we wonder what's wrong with the organization.

Mike

Chris P. Bacon

My Feedback: (4)

As a 501(c)(3) you should be aware of your federal disclosure requirements.

All the mud dragging has been caused by those unfamiliar with accounting practices and federal disclosure requirements.

rcmiket

Got your PM an responded but I'm no sure if there going out. Been a issue before.

Mike

Chris P. Bacon

My Feedback: (4)

Anyone hear back from the AMA to see if they're going to be changing their reporting standards based on the feedback in this thread? If it's not too late, please add automatic push distribution to the list too. I'd like to have them magically appear in my inbox rather than having to constantly check the AMA website. On second thought, how about using some nice interactive enterprise reporting tool so I can just drill down in real-time to whatever level I want. Yeah, that's the ticket.

init4fun

I do wonder what's become of him , I liked his posts since I agreed with most of them . I have spent the afternoon , in between the usual day's tasks , reading the financial report that was pointed out to me in this thread . Wow , it's amazing to see how an economy the size of the AMA's operates ! In the coming days , as time allows , I plan to do more reading and I may have a question or two for this thread then .

combatpigg

My Feedback: (3)

I took a peek at the IRS 990 and it doesn't provide much detail, [like a breakdown on what was spent on the PPP, for instance].
The 990 looks much like the good old 1040, which is where all your tabulations from other itemized worksheets are assembled to get the grand totals.

Yes, I hope all is well with Hoss and his family. I enjoyed his posts not just here but also in the other forums.

RCKen

My Feedback: (9)

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[TD="class: ZhAppContent"]When I moderate these forums I have several emotions that I use and I have to be certain that I use the right emotion at the right time. For the most part I try to use a steady even keel and so no emotions as to what I am doing when I am moderating. That emotion is done to show that I take no side in anything I do, and with forums as touchy and as explosive as the AMA forum can be at times it's very important that I show that whenever I can. There are circumstances when I need to get upset, but when those are needed I try to make absolutely sure that it's needed for me to show that I'm mad because it can make me took like I am a mad beast if I just stamp my feet and scream at a minor situation. So I have to make sure that if I do get upset the level of my getting upset matches the level of the situation. And over the years of moderating there have times that I have been upset, that have been times that I have been mildly mad, times that I have been really mad, times I have been really really mad. But today had by far gone way past anything that I have ever been before. I am absolutely positively steaming furiously mad. I mean steam coming from my ears and collar type of mad. I started looking over this thread this morning and I have actually had to leave sitting at my keyboard and go and do something else so that I could cool back down before I could come back and deal with this situation. And even now it's taking every ounce of restraint in my body to not go ballistic as I type in this thread now.

So, what's going on here that's got me so freaking mad?? I'll tell you without pulling any punches. I get just a little upset when members first PM me and then start relaying back to the open forums like they know EXACTLY how I will do my job. But it doesn't end there. I then get REALLY FURIOUS when those members get it wrong and start misquoting what I said. I don't mind if a member PM's me with a question about RCU's rules, or why I moderate something a certain way. But when that member comes back to the open forum and starts acting like a "know-it-all" because they talked to me and then even gets the information wrong that I told them I can assure that that member is going to be on an express ride to #1 on my crap list. Nothing upsets me quicker than that.

Now, here's what's been going on this this thread and what has been a key matter that has been a problem with all of this. First off, some of the member are complaining about a couple of members here and complaining that they are "trolls" and their only goal is to go around to every thread and start and argument and bring the thread off topic and then either bring it down in the mud so nothing gets discussed or the thread gets closed. So here is my solution to that. If you don't like those members then put them on your ignore list. PERIOD. You guys keep coming to me telling me to ban them. I'm not going to ban a member just because you don't like them. Banning a member takes quite a bit more than that. So the best and easiest solution is for you to put those members you don't want to deal with on your ignore list. Easiest solution in the world. You won't ever hear from them again. Nothing. Nada. No posts, no replies, no PM's from them, absolutely nothing. Problem solved. If everybody else who think that these couple of people are doing the same thing as you are then the problem is solved as nobody will respond to them.

However, from what I have been seeing here in the last couple of weeks it's not just these "couple of trolls" that everybody is accusing of being the troublemakers that are causing all the problems. Yes, they are causing problems but they aren't the only ones doing it. They guys on "the other side", the ones that say they simply want to discuss the matter without it being drawn down into the mud, are causing just as many problems (we'll see that here in a minute).Look back up to this post by init4fun. In this whole thread he is the first one that says anything about trolling, taunting, stirring up crap, or getting the thread closed. Up until this point the thread had been on point and was discussing the topic of the thread. So I think that might have been a bit of the pot calling the kettle black.I can assure you everybody gets warned for being off topic when I remove their posts that are off topic.Please don't think that since you didn't get a friendly PM with a smile attached to it that you were clean. When I take an action on an individual post I will send a PM to that one individual person. But in the case of that thread that I closed down there were so many posts that I removed (over 50 posts from just over 1 day) I posted the warning in the open forum. When I post a warning in the open forum such as that it is to apply to everybody in that forum. So YES, you were WARNED as well as everybody else that was posting in that thread. I can assure you that if I go back to the 50 posts that were deleted there were messages from you that were removed because the content of your messages were not acceptable, PERIOD. It's just that simple. So this is pretty much a case of the glass house and tossing stones. Know what I mean??[INDENT][QUOTE]If you remember , >>> I

init4fun

Ok , so , with that out of the way , i'm almost done with my reading of the available forms that were suggested to me earlier in the thread , and I'll likely have some questions later on .

porcia83

My Feedback: (8)

What isn't readily available online can be requested from your local AVP or District VP. If you want to bypass that level you can go directly to the folks at the AMA. Keep in mind some of the requested information might not be subject to dispersal, even to members. If you narrow the focus of the requests, you will probably increase the chance of getting the information.

Here are two names that are points of contact for what you are probably looking for. If not, I would presume they would know where to direct you.

Finance Committee:
Chair: Russ Miller
EC Liaison: Keith Sessions

init4fun

Thank You . One thing I've learned in my reading so far , is that the AMA is far bigger , money wise , than I'd have ever guessed when I first posted this . Interesting how an organization devoted to a pastime that relatively few participate in could get to where the AMA is .

Hydro Junkie

WOW!!! I hope Ken took the time to grab a beer or, maybe, something a little stronger after that post. I've never seen him that riled before and I've been in the forums for over a decade.

porcia83

My Feedback: (8)

I think for those folks taking the time to do a deep dive, even with the information available now, they have to come away with the notion that the AMA is far more than just an insurance policy. Are there things that could probably be done better, sure, I think that could be said of any organization. Does the membership always agree on what should be done, or are they happy with the direction that organization had taken, of course not. I have mentioned before and would note again, it's great to note the opportunities and make suggestions as to proposed changes or new directions. But how does one get past that stage, and how does the message get heard? The content and delivery of the message is important, as well as where and how it's delivered. Once voice isn't as loud as two, or three, and so on.

I've suggested previously that one possible solution is to get more involved, directly. Be in touch with local AVP and VPs. I get that everyone has a life, and different set of circumstances, but this is how change can occur. Become a Leader Member, at least you start having some voting rights. Get involved in your district activities, outside of your immediate clubs. In addition to being fun to meet and fly with others, it's a great way to get a pulse check outside of ones immediate club and even area. Although an extreme measure, the quarterly meetings are open to all members.

I went back and looked through the 146 threads in the AMA forum (I know, I know), they go back over 12 years, almost to the month. Here are the threads that had titles that seemed to go with this one:

http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/ama-discussions-74/907008-ama-financial-statements.html

http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/ama-...inancials.html

http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/ama-...ncial-inf.html

http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/ama-...inancials.html

http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/ama-...inancials.html

http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/ama-...w-ama-web.html

http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/ama-...t-members.html

http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/ama-...t-website.html


There might have been more with different titles, that dealt with this issue, but I didn't say I read them all...just looked at the titles.

For at least 10 years, the same questions have been asked, almost the same issues brought up. Once in a great while, someone would say "did you ask anyone for the information", or "did you look at the available information". It was rare that they did.

So at least now we see some actual progress, it's a start!

rcmiket

Unfortunately the AMA forums bring out the worst ( and occasionally but not as often the best) in all of us.

Mike

Hydro Junkie

I wouldn't say the AMA forum itself brings out the worst or best in people but, rather, what people think the AMA is and/or does. Since the AMA operates financially through membership dues, it is my belief that the board needs to keep members informed on what is happening in a timely manner and how those dues are being spent. Conversely, the members need to keep the board informed on what they want the board to do as well as concerns or ideas on the direction they want the board to take. Obviously, having 100K+ members means the board must do some compromising to try and meet everyone's wishes and, obviously, not everyone will be happy. The "drone" fiasco shows this very vividly. The board's lack of communication to members and the perceived failure to ask the members what they think and/or do what the members wanted(this last sentence is based on all the threads I've read here in the forums, not first hand information) is obviously a reason for many of the latest "animated" threads that have been driving Ken crazy.

porcia83

My Feedback: (8)

+1. The AMA is different things to different people. Some feel it's just insurance, others see more benefits and functions. A lack of effective communication is often the root cause of discontent.

rcmiket

Agreed but that's why I mentioned " the AMA forums" and not just the AMA. What bothers me is every time someone mentions AMA accountability ( not only financially but organization direction) their jumped on.


Mike

Hydro Junkie

Okay guys, I updated my last post to indicate the forums at the same time you were both typing your posts. I love the fact that you both didn't jump down my throat over the lack of the word "forum" in my opening sentence

Chris P. Bacon

My Feedback: (4)

+1

IMHO if folks took the time to read their AMA membership manual and the AMA's mission statement it would clear up a lot of the misunderstanding.

Hydro Junkie

And while that is very true, two way communication would be an invaluable tool that, from what I can tell, is sadly underused

init4fun

And again , Thank You for the links .

I just hope everyone knows my interest in the finance thing was strictly cause I had no idea how big or small we are , how much was told VS untold about our money , and the general "in's and out's" of how something like the AMA operates . No fishing excursion , no slam at the AMA at all , just the wondering of just how big must we be to have given out over a Million in school grants to youngsters , and info such as that . When I saw mention in that other thread that there was both told and untold details about our finances , I wanted to know if there were , and if so why . Maybe the stuff withheld is withheld for good and legal reason for all I know (if anything is really withheld at all) and that was what prompted this thread .

init4fun

PS , just wait till ya see my NEXT thread !!!!

Sport_Pilot

I have only worked on a few of the newer cars but the ones I have worked on are easier than most of my older cars. I once had a Buick Riviera with 430 CI engine that was a pain to work on. The spark plugs were small needing a smaller 11/16" (I think) socket. I never understood why such a large engine had such small spark plugs. You could not change all sparkplugs unless you unbolted the engine mount and jacked the engine up an inch or two. Actually this is not as hard as on some 70's Pontiacs where you have to unbolt the A/C compressor to get the #2 spark plug out. I found out it is not wise to do this with an pneumatic impact wrench because the extension can wobble and hit a refrigerant line and cause an expensive repair to replace the metal line. Yes some modern cars are tight but so were many older ones. The best thing about modern cars is you have little to tune up and often the computer will tell you what is wrong.

porcia83

My Feedback: (8)

I'll differ on the last point. The issue that is usually questioned is what is exactly is accountability. Demanding info that is already available for the taking is one thing, and asking for every penny to be accounted for as well, which I don't think is feasible. Also, and I would say equally important is what is proposed to be done once the info is secured. I don't see that ever discussed, or indications that a plan is in place for that. Does anyone reach out to the resources readily available to them. ?

porcia83

My Feedback: (8)

Who would do that in these threads?��. I honestly didn't even catch the word, to me it wasn't an issue...effective communication is important regardless of the method,means,location.
There should be a balance I think. There are many ways for us to communicate up the chain...district avp and VP...as well as direct contact with any employee of the ama...their info is published and available for all to see. Download communication is done primarily via email, with links to the AMA website. In some instances it's done via media. Again, balance. Too many emails might lead to info overkill where messages get lost. Not enough info leads to the obvious complaints. I think they could update their site more timely with some data. Also, they do have their own forum where questions can be asked and answered for all to see. Another means of communication is more local... district AVP and VP. Do clubs get in touch with them, invite them to events, send write ups about events or look to them for info. If not, they should, that's what they are there for. I do realize that's not always possible because or proximity.