franklin_m

IMO, one of the issues that AMA must face sooner or later is access to flying sites. I realize everyone's situation is different, but I did a comparison of the cold hard economics & logistics for my situation:

[TABLE="class: grid, width: 500"]
[TR]
[TD][/TD]
[TD="align: center"]AMA Field[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]Local Park[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]RT distance[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]26 miles[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]0.038 miles (100 feet)[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Gas cost[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]$6.26[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]zero (load aircraft in wagon and walk)[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]RT time[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]39 minutes[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]5 minutes[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]AMA Fee[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]$75 (req'd)[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]$0 (AMA not req'd)[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Club Fee[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]$100 (req'd)[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]$0 (no club = no fees)[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Altitude limit[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]600 feet[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]none[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Nearby Airport notification req'd[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]Yes[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]Yes[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Runway type[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]Grass[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]Grass[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Types can fly[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]Any (as long as meet noise restrictions)[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]Electric only[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Size aircraft can fly comfortably in space[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]Any[/TD]
[TD="align: center"].25 size electric / 500 helo[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

Yesterday I went to the park with three helos (2x 450's and a 500). Flew 9 packs through the 450's, and three through the 500. Total time: 80 minutes, with 75 of it spent either flying or changing batteries. Best of all, close proximity meant I went home charged all the batteries (1C on four chargers), and two hours later went back and did it all again!

Contrast that with the logistics getting to/from the "normal" RC field. Not saying it's the same for everyone, but switching to slightly smaller stuff I can fly close to home has meant more flying in one day that I typically got in several trips to the flying field in years past. Economically, I also can save up to $175 a year in club/ama fees plus gas - which buys a lot of batteries and kits!

porcia83

My Feedback: (8)

Other than your specific situation, is the premise here that the AMA has not been dealing with the issue of flying sites? Because of course they already have. It's not sooner or later, but rather been there done that and still doing it.

It's great that you can fly in a local park rather that make that arduous journey to that expensive field. You are aware of course that many cities and towns are banning the use of RC in their fields right? And it's no wonder why, what if 50 guys who live next to you decide to forgo that horrible ride to the field and show up at your local park and all want to fly? Wonder if the members of that community as well as the local govt are going to have a problem with it. I know I would.

Different areas of the country have different issues, but in more densely populated areas, it's more likely than not that public parks are not going to allow RC usage. And for the record, many had already banned all RC usage well before the MR issue.

Back to the sooner or later issue.....

Tony Stillman.... Flying Site Assistance Coordinator

Anyone wanting help getting a field going, contact him at AMA HQ. You might also bump into him as he drives the AMA fligh sim trailer all over the country. He'll walk you through the process. It does involve an application that needs to be filled out and that is then submitted to a committee to review. Obviously one person doesn't make a decision. Also keep in mind, it's not a guarantee that a field will be suddenly found or funded because the AMA is involved. Anyone looking at this issue knows full well is more complex than asking someone to find and pay for a field.

So at the end of the day Franklin this works out great for you, so kudos on finding a working solution. I see your analysis is cold, economic, and logistical, I guess that's why the issue of flying with other modelers and enjoying that type of fellowship and experience was left out.

What's up with your club's 600ft altitude limitation? Where did that number come from?

franklin_m

I go to fly, not to talk. It's just me, but if want social, I'll go to a local watering hole where I can enjoy a nice single malt at the same time.

Funny you should mention the field though. I had just come from the local flying field (on the way back from where I store my boat). So I stopped by for my third visit in about six weeks (two on Sundays, and one on a Saturday, all on great weather days and early to mid afternoon). A little bit of a breeze yesterday, but otherwise warm and sunny just like the two prior visits. In those three visits, have seen exactly one person flying at the field.

The 600' restriction? It's co-located with a private airfield, 600' limit comes from that.

franklin_m

Nope. But, I do doubt the numbers often reported as to number of flying sites. Within 25 miles of my zip code, the site lists two clubs. One of which is my local one (AMA says it's 2.5 miles away, it's actually 13) and another AMA says is 14 miles away that's actually 63. Within what AMA considers a 50 mile distance, there's seven. I've sent three of them emails, none responded, so I wonder if they're even active anymore. Given the experience with how well the AMA keeps other parts of their site up to date, I wonder if this is lagging as well.

My point is merely that I wonder if there are really as many flying sites as we're told there are. At least in the examples I've found, there's also an indication they're closer than they actually are - thus raising the proximity issue.

porcia83

My Feedback: (8)

I went to my club last week ago last Sunday, 11-12:30. Overcast with blue skies and sun here or there, high ceiling. 75 degrees, almost no wind. Not a soul around. At 5 that night, about 20 people showed up. No rhyme or reason, stuff like that happens all the time. And we have 209 people in the club...go figure.
I

porcia83

My Feedback: (8)

I'm sure you know the acronym....GIGO......apply that to some of the info shown on the AMA site. If the clubs feed the AMA incorrect info, that's what is going to show. I know a club close to me that lists that they have 259 members, when I was just at their meeting and they said 129. Is the AMA somehow responsible for that? Mix in google maps, coordinates etc etc and there are lots of errors. Not sure we want our dues going to someone at the AMA to spend their time cross checking every one of the 2,000 plus club to ensure complete and perfect accuracy.

The same goes for clubs that don't keep their contact information up to date, or don't respond at all to inquiries. That's on them. I've seen some websites for clubs that haven't been updated since 2012 yet they are still active. Site maintenance usually is someone someone volunteers to do, and if you're part of a club you know how it goes when requests to help do thing goes......pullin teeth!

combatpigg

My Feedback: (3)

Howdy Franklin..!
Your situation seems pretty clear and what a nice one you have.
When I first got into RC the club fields provided a level of entertainment that the parks, school yards and vacant lots were lacking.
A main attraction [for me] were the builders, designers, competitors and aerodynamicists.
Many of these guys were WWII, Korea and Vietnam era aviators too.
On any given day, you never knew who was going to roll out a recently built, hand crafted show stopping creation.
Before the internet, these guys were also your GO TO source for all the technical expertise not just for sport flying but also for competition.
Many of the WWII guys grew up together, went to school together here and were a very fun group.
The scene at the local club field has changed. "inspiring, creative, daring and unusual" are not words to describe what goes on there any more.
In my case, it has made more sense to save the $100 club fee since the local AMA field has lost it's luster.

franklin_m

I don't blame AMA for the incorrect info. However, part of the "sales pitch" for AMA membership is in large measure all these places to fly. Yet it isn't too difficult to find flying sites for which you get no response. So if some percentage of those flying sites are in fact defunct, isn't that misrepresentation in part the AMA's issue?

Just got back from seven more batteries worth through one of the 450's and the 500. All in less time than it would have taken me to drive to club, park, unpack, and set up to fly (assuming of course I didn't have to wait for flying space).

porcia83

My Feedback: (8)

Times change, so do people's interest. There are still amazing things that folks bring out the club, not always a scratch built war-bird or J3 Cub. We have a more senior member who for the last 5 years has been building some of the most fantastic aircraft with blue core foam and playing with programing functions on his radio to make his aircraft do some amazing things. He recently rigged carbon fiber tubes to take in thrust from the EDF unit and run them off the end of the jet's wings so it can do slow high alpha passes. I see plenty of opportunity for the more senior or "traditional" modeler to still be inspiring and creative, and share their info with the newer folks, even if they do fly ARFs and foamies. I'm glad to see them stick around our local clubs, otherwise they quit and then complain about the sad state of affairs at clubs. I never thought quitting was the best option to an issue, but it might be for some.

franklin_m

CP... couldn't agree more. Not saying that those who value the social aspect are wrong, I'm just not willing to pay $100 for it (or $175 with AMA membership).

porcia83

My Feedback: (8)

No, it's not misrepresentation, it never is. Again, you're blaming the AMA for a flying club not responding to you. There are a number of reasons why a club might not be responding to you, from old information, to spam filters, to you not sending the e-mail correct etc etc. Again, I don't know that this is the AMA's fault if the club isn't up to date on the info they submit, or the club just fails to get back to you.

Their "sales pitch" is multifaceted, yet you are focusing on just one aspect of it that doesn't seem to be working for you. Are you looking for perfection when humans and computers are involved.

Do you expect a club that has become "defunct" to immediately notify the AMA? Could you envision some lag time there?

You are winning today,,,,the ability to fly close by, and the weather too! To wet to fly here today.


EDIT: just thought of another benefit to being close by...you know, those times when you leave your transmitter at home, or the wing tube for the plane. Ya...those times. Ugh!

Meant to say enjoyed your pics of the rig you have set up for the helis....certainly easier than carting each heli and all the equipment around.

porcia83

My Feedback: (8)

Choice is a great thing to have, for sure. To Combat's point though, outside of the social aspect of the club environment, I've learned more about the hobby from fellow members than I ever will from the internet. Sure, it's great to see a write up of a new product or some mods to a plane, but nothing beats having someone standing right in front of you helping you through an issue. Club are lots of different things to different people though, and club certainly have different personalities.

franklin_m

First, thanks for the compliment on the rig. It's not the prettiest, but it's functional, and it cost me zero. I'll rig some attachments to transport some aircraft as well. The park is a perfect place for my Adrenaline Rush....

As for the club issue. It seems inconsistent to be trying so hard to grow memberships, but then know (or should know) that clubs you list on your page aren't responding to inquiries, show locations that are in the middle of a forest, or have out of date info. Is there no process in place to re-verify contact info? Is there no stated expectation to respond to inquiries (again, if you're trying to grow membership), etc.?

How many excuses must we consider before we face the most obvious conclusion : that the club doesn't exist anymore - yet it's listed anyway. Is that not misrepresenting the number of places to fly?

porcia83

My Feedback: (8)

Should information be perfect...sure, a great idea.

Again, the implication being here that the AMA is responsible for the info the club submits. I say it's on the clubs, not the AMA. The same for the clubs not responding to you...how that could ever be the AMA's fault is unknown.

I can't imagine it's easy for one person to spend time reaching out to every club in the country to ensure their info is correct. I'm sure the AMA can get right on that, but again, that will cost money, and we know how that goes.

franklin_m

Perhaps you don't see it as important, and we may have to just disagree. However, if your goal is to grow membership, then clubs that don't respond because they're lazy, or don't respond because the posted contact info is incorrect, or don't respond for any other reason are, no matter what the reason, not supporting a goal of the organization. At best, it's not helping. At worst, it's hurting.

In a recent issue of MA, they talked about what steps are common to clubs that are healthy, and thus help stem the 15 year trend of declining membership. So is someone that contacts a club electronically and doesn't get a response that much different than someone who shows up and doesn't get a warm welcome?

porcia83

My Feedback: (8)

I've never even hinted that accurate information isn't important, I think we both agree that isn't good. The problem is that this appears to be yet another issue to find fault with the AMA on, as if it's their fault, despite the fact that they aren't the ones making this information up, it's the clubs that control it. Perfect information would be perfect, but I'm not clear on how that happens without intervention, at a cost of course. It can be done from both ends though, but it's really up to the club.

And again, the comparison you make is an apples to oranges one, but manages to again to find some fault with the AMA. All roads lead to that it seems. The AMA has nothing to do of course with how people are greeted at clubs. That's all on the club.

All in all, this feels like another red herring issue, much like the one complaining about the AMA spending to much money on pins. At least with that issue nobody else was involved in the pins, just the AMA. Or were they.....

franklin_m

I think the info is after all on the AMA's website. If they don't value correct info, I guess it is their choice to accept any consequences that come from it.

So let me put it this way. You go to a national fast food company to find a location near you. They list a location. Are you saying that if that information is incorrect you blame the franchisee and not the parent company?

rgburrill

I had a coworker who was also too cheap to join the AMA and a club and regularly flew his helis at a local park. Funny thing is he smashed several (intentionally) because little kids or dogs who were also in the park would run up to try to grab them.

franklin_m

That's a risk. But I also witnessed a club member at the club field become disoriented and send his plane rocketing toward the pilot stations....several people dove out of the way to protect themselves, including one guy who lost a beautiful .75 powered scratch built twin. Flying at a club field is no guarantee you won't lose a plane from the actions of another person.

porcia83

My Feedback: (8)

So let me put it this way, if there was ever an on point comparison, I'd be happy to respond to it. Until then, I'll just keep waiting the hear the latest issue that the AMA is at fault for. Do I hear global warming, gas prices, or say, the middle east?

franklin_m

So the logically consistent position, at least based on your posts, would be that you'd blame the franchisee.

porcia83

My Feedback: (8)

I take the position of trying to find out what the problem might be...not lay it consistently and unconditionally at the foot of one party, illogically I might add.

rcmiket

While I feel the numbers posted are accurate since flying here in a local park is against city ordinances I don't have option on where to fly. I don't think I own anything I'd feel comfortable flying at a park anyway. I have two really nice fields within 16 miles of my house and would much rather fly with the guys anyway.

Mike

Chris P. Bacon

My Feedback: (4)

Good job on the economic comparison. While your comparison includes gasoline, you neglected vehicle wear and tear, depreciation, maintenance, increased chances of an accident, etc.

Based on your economic comparison, what lifestyle changes will you be making and when do you plan to implement them?

Hydro Junkie

Okay guys, how is this for a way to keep the club listing on the AMA website accurate:
1) Every club that wants to be listed on the AMA website MUST submit accurate club and contact information by a specific date to the AMA assigned webmaster
2) Any club that does not sent in updated information for the club by the given date will be sent a hard letter, not email, informing the club of being delinquent and given a reply by date to respond
3) Any club not responding as per #2 above will be deleted from the club listing on the AMA website by the end of the following week.

Now you have an accurate listing process that REQUIRES the club to respond and the AMA to remove any club that doesn't. Any Objections?