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Drone VS Aircraft - Mid Air Collisions

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Drone VS Aircraft - Mid Air Collisions

Old 07-11-2016, 08:09 AM
  #501  
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Originally Posted by speedracerntrixie
Who are you to determine if someone is in need of medical attention or not? This person could very well have had high blood pressure or diabetes. Either one would be a contributing factor. Especially Diabetes as infections are a serious matter. Burns are very suseptable to infection and it would be a wise decision to get the burn properly cleaned.

The point is that there very well could have been some underlying health issues beside the burn.
That doesn't make it a serious injury. Did you mean to reply to me?
Old 07-11-2016, 08:18 AM
  #502  
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Originally Posted by Sport_Pilot
Any burn affecting more than 5% of the body is the key part of that. The way it is worded is vague as to the extent of second degree burns. Having had several small second degree burns in the past. Including one involving my entire hand, I do not consider this serious. As someone said a common cigarette burn is usually second degree, sometimes a third degree burn.

Of course you are again making mountains out of mole hills!
Care to scan and post your medical credentials?
Old 07-11-2016, 08:20 AM
  #503  
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Originally Posted by mike1974
Let's argue about the moon landing! Hoax or not? Apollo 11 anniversary and I am going to Wright Pat this weekend!! Woot woot!!

Do do we have a 4th Amigo?
Old 07-11-2016, 08:22 AM
  #504  
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Originally Posted by mike1974
That is insane, ridiculous and a waste of time!! Who is making this stuff up? To quote Bill Ingvall, "Here's your sign"!

Read it for yourself, 49 USC 830.

§830.5 Immediate notification.The operator of any civil aircraft, or any public aircraft not operated by the Armed Forces or an intelligence agency of the United States, or any foreign aircraft shall immediately, and by the most expeditious means available, notify the nearest National Transportation Safety Board (NTSB) office,1 when:

(a) An aircraft accident or any of the following listed serious incidents occur:"

The law provides the following in the "Definitions" section:

Aircraft accident means an occurrence associated with the operation of an aircraft which takes place between the time any person boards the aircraft with the intention of flight and all such persons have disembarked, and in which any person suffers death or serious injury, or in which the aircraft receives substantial damage. For purposes of this part, the definition of “aircraft accident” includes “unmanned aircraft accident,” as defined herein."


Unmanned aircraft accident means an occurrence associated with the operation of any public or civil unmanned aircraft system that takes place between the time that the system is activated with the purpose of flight and the time that the system is deactivated at the conclusion of its mission, in which:
(1) Any person suffers death or serious injury; or
(2) The aircraft has a maximum gross takeoff weight of 300 pounds or greater and sustains substantial damage

Serious injury means any injury which:
(1) Requires hospitalization for more than 48 hours, commencing within 7 days from the date of the injury was received;
(2) results in a fracture of any bone (except simple fractures of fingers, toes, or nose);
(3) causes severe hemorrhages, nerve, muscle, or tendon damage;
(4) involves any internal organ; or
(5) involves second- or third-degree burns, or any burns affecting more than 5 percent of the body surface."

[emphasis added]


If you can show me where "model aircraft" are exempted from this statute, then I'm all ears. Some may not like what it says, and some may choose to ignore it, but it, but that doesn't change what the law actually says.

So, in the case of the turbine crash that produced second degree burns:
- Aircraft accident (involving unmanned aircraft) as defined in 49 USC 830? - YES
- Did it result in a serious injury as defined in 49 USC 830? - YES
- Was reporting required? - YES

http://www.ecfr.gov/cgi-bin/text-idx...dno=49;cc=ecfr
Old 07-11-2016, 08:24 AM
  #505  
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Originally Posted by Sport_Pilot
Any burn affecting more than 5% of the body is the key part of that. The way it is worded is vague as to the extent of second degree burns. Having had several small second degree burns in the past. Including one involving my entire hand, I do not consider this serious. As someone said a common cigarette burn is usually second degree, sometimes a third degree burn.

Of course you are again making mountains out of mole hills!
You need to read the sentence...it is "or" before the part about 5%. So what comes after the "or" has nothing to do with what precedes it. The language is very clear.
Old 07-11-2016, 08:45 AM
  #506  
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Originally Posted by speedracerntrixie
Do do we have a 4th Amigo?
It may grow to be the "Dirty Dozen".
Old 07-11-2016, 08:46 AM
  #507  
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Originally Posted by franklin_m
Read it for yourself, 49 USC 830.

§830.5 Immediate notification.The operator of any civil aircraft, or any public aircraft not operated by the Armed Forces or an intelligence agency of the United States, or any foreign aircraft shall immediately, and by the most expeditious means available, notify the nearest National Transportation Safety Board (NTSB) office,1 when:

(a) An aircraft accident or any of the following listed serious incidents occur:"

The law provides the following in the "Definitions" section:

Aircraft accident means an occurrence associated with the operation of an aircraft which takes place between the time any person boards the aircraft with the intention of flight and all such persons have disembarked, and in which any person suffers death or serious injury, or in which the aircraft receives substantial damage. For purposes of this part, the definition of “aircraft accident” includes “unmanned aircraft accident,” as defined herein."


Unmanned aircraft accident means an occurrence associated with the operation of any public or civil unmanned aircraft system that takes place between the time that the system is activated with the purpose of flight and the time that the system is deactivated at the conclusion of its mission, in which:
(1) Any person suffers death or serious injury; or
(2) The aircraft has a maximum gross takeoff weight of 300 pounds or greater and sustains substantial damage

Serious injury means any injury which:
(1) Requires hospitalization for more than 48 hours, commencing within 7 days from the date of the injury was received;
(2) results in a fracture of any bone (except simple fractures of fingers, toes, or nose);
(3) causes severe hemorrhages, nerve, muscle, or tendon damage;
(4) involves any internal organ; or
(5) involves second- or third-degree burns, or any burns affecting more than 5 percent of the body surface."

[emphasis added]


If you can show me where "model aircraft" are exempted from this statute, then I'm all ears. Some may not like what it says, and some may choose to ignore it, but it, but that doesn't change what the law actually says.

So, in the case of the turbine crash that produced second degree burns:
- Aircraft accident (involving unmanned aircraft) as defined in 49 USC 830? - YES
- Did it result in a serious injury as defined in 49 USC 830? - YES
- Was reporting required? - YES

http://www.ecfr.gov/cgi-bin/text-idx...dno=49;cc=ecfr
Oh, I believe you! I just don't think I would have reported it. Not serious enough if it were me.
Old 07-11-2016, 08:47 AM
  #508  
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Originally Posted by franklin_m
You need to read the sentence...it is "or" before the part about 5%. So what comes after the "or" has nothing to do with what precedes it. The language is very clear.
So you would report this if someone had a second degree burn from putting their arm on a hot muffler? That could result in a second degree burn.

Maybe they were expecting someone to use some common sense?

I think for some that is too much to ask.
Old 07-11-2016, 08:48 AM
  #509  
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Originally Posted by speedracerntrixie
Do do we have a 4th Amigo?
There are many here, you're just late to the party.
Old 07-11-2016, 08:51 AM
  #510  
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Originally Posted by Chris P. Bacon
There are many here, you're just late to the party.
Quite possible, it however is amusing that you still can't come up with a solution to bird strikes even though you are quite passionate on the subject and how Sport completly ignored my request for his medical credentials. Statements without reasonable evidence are pretty much empty.
Old 07-11-2016, 08:52 AM
  #511  
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Originally Posted by speedracerntrixie
Do do we have a 4th Amigo?
I'm your Huckleberry.
Old 07-11-2016, 08:56 AM
  #512  
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Originally Posted by speedracerntrixie
Quite possible, it however is amusing that you still can't come up with a solution to bird strikes even though you are quite passionate on the subject and how Sport completly ignored my request for his medical credentials. Statements without reasonable evidence are pretty much empty.
It's also amusing that planes have actually hit birds, while mid airs with drones is zero. Which one is everyone worrying about? 10+ years of fpv fixed wing and a good 2-3 (at least) fpv with mr aircraft and 0 mid airs.
Old 07-11-2016, 09:05 AM
  #513  
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Originally Posted by speedracerntrixie
Quite possible, it however is amusing that you still can't come up with a solution to bird strikes even though you are quite passionate on the subject and how Sport completly ignored my request for his medical credentials. Statements without reasonable evidence are pretty much empty.
Having had a second degree burn I don't need medical credentials. Here is a photo of a small second degree burn.


Clearly not enough to make a federal case of.
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Old 07-11-2016, 09:10 AM
  #514  
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Originally Posted by speedracerntrixie
Quite possible, it however is amusing that you still can't come up with a solution to bird strikes even though you are quite passionate on the subject and how Sport completly ignored my request for his medical credentials. Statements without reasonable evidence are pretty much empty.
More amusing than you can possibly imagine....
Old 07-11-2016, 09:11 AM
  #515  
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OK Mike, let me repeat this a THIRD time! I agree that birds are an issue. Now since Chris is unable to explain a viable solution so far perhaps you can?

IMO the risk of birds and the risk of R/C aircraft are two different things. The birds are just being birds looking for food. The MR/drone is a human being using poor judgement. In my eyes it is never acceptable for one person to put another person at unnessesary risk. Just the same it is not acceptable for another person to decide that someone is not in need of medical attention. Case in point, I recently had an anyrism in my right hand. The actual term is Hypothenar Hammer Syndrome. Just prior to my surgery I was out flying almost everyday. To everyone around me I appeared as if there was no issue. Left untreated the artery would have eventually burst and my hand would have become septic. Then there was the remote possibility of there being a clot that could migrate. Bottom line is that if anyone feels they are in need of medical attention THEY ARE, just the same as if someone feels they are at risk by any R/C aircraft common courtesy states we should listen.
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Old 07-11-2016, 09:15 AM
  #516  
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Originally Posted by franklin_m
No, but I'll trust regulators, policy makers, and legislators to look at NASA ASRS incidents involving near midairs with "model aircraft" or instances when manned aircraft had to maneuver to avoid collision with a "model aircraft" and then decide for themselves whether they likely involved AMA members.
Still waiting for results. Have you started cashing in your personal favors yet from your friends in high places? "I'll trust regulators, policy makers, and legislators" as well to look at the intent, individual driving the effort, and how it was driven.
Old 07-11-2016, 09:16 AM
  #517  
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Originally Posted by Sport_Pilot
Having had a second degree burn I don't need medical credentials. Here is a photo of a small second degree burn.


Clearly not enough to make a federal case of.
Sporto, the difference is you have every right to decide for YOURSELF that you don't require medical attention. You DO NOT have the right to decide that for someone else!
Old 07-11-2016, 09:20 AM
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Originally Posted by franklin_m
How did you go from following the law with respect to NTSB reporting, or examining mishap data as a leading indicator of risk to manned aircraft from collisions with drones to requiring breathalizers for full scale?
Situational awareness to inherent risk based on overall safety to manned aircraft.
Old 07-11-2016, 09:33 AM
  #519  
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Just the same it is not acceptable for another person to decide that someone is not in need of medical attention.
There y9u go again, shoving words down our throats! No one ever said we were denying medical attention or not in need of any. Just that to report every burn or finger cut is going to get the NTSB upset with us. Most of the reports go nowhere anyway.
Old 07-11-2016, 09:34 AM
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Originally Posted by speedracerntrixie
Sporto, the difference is you have every right to decide for YOURSELF that you don't require medical attention. You DO NOT have the right to decide that for someone else!

The discussion is about making an NTSB report, not when someone should get medical attention.
Old 07-11-2016, 10:04 AM
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Originally Posted by Sport_Pilot
The discussion is about making an NTSB report, not when someone should get medical attention.
+1. Appears some are reading far too much into what's actually being discussed.
Old 07-11-2016, 10:12 AM
  #522  
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Originally Posted by Sport_Pilot
There y9u go again, shoving words down our throats! No one ever said we were denying medical attention or not in need of any. Just that to report every burn or finger cut is going to get the NTSB upset with us. Most of the reports go nowhere anyway.

this would certainly imply that you and Chris feel medical attention was not required.
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Old 07-11-2016, 10:14 AM
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Originally Posted by speedracerntrixie
this would certainly imply that you and Chris feel medical attention was not required.
I said nothing of the sort, but you're entitled to your own opinion.
Old 07-11-2016, 10:14 AM
  #524  
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We were discussing if an NTSB report was required, not if he should go to the hospital. You may have missed a few posts by Franklin who thinks every 2nd degree burn requires a report.
Old 07-11-2016, 12:38 PM
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