BarracudaHockey

My Feedback: (11)

The only game in town though is the AMA

And to operate under its guidelines you have to acknowledge to abide by the safety code among other things like have access to its educational programs

franklin_m

The FAA, the only organization that would take enforcement action, explicitly said that membership is not required. You'll note that I even mentioned AMA in my example. Yet they still said it is not interpreted to require membership.

....and I quote again:

"The FAA does not interpret PL 112-95 Section 336 (a) (2) as requiring membership in a CBO, nor does the FAA list any CBOs. You must only follow the guidelines of a CBO. [emphasis added]"

...FAA UAS Integration Office email to the poster on 12 July 2016 in response to direct question as to whether sectionn 336 requires membership in a CBO.

TimJ

Membership is NOT required. How hard is it to understand that? Also, how hard is it to understand that you can follow the rules of a CBO without being a member? The rules of the AMA are available publicly and do not require you to be a member to view or follow them........NOT HARD at all to understand.....for most people that is.

franklin_m

Sure seems like Chad Budreau of AMA thinks so. You must have forgotten his statement in this video ...http://www.modelaircraft.org/aboutama/gov.aspx ... Beginning at about 35 seconds, Chad makes the following explicit statement: "We've made it clear, that to operate within our safety program, you must join the AMA and affirm your willingness to comply with our safety code and related safety guidelines. [emphasis added]"

So despite what Chad said on behalf of the AMA that indicates "you must join the AMA," the FAA UAS Integration Office does not share that opinion - explicitly stating that "The FAA does not interpret PL 112-95 Section 336 (a) (2) as requiring membership in a CBO, nor does the FAA list any CBOs. You must only follow the guidelines of a CBO. [emphasis added]"

TimJ

That is interesting that Chad would interpret that. Although technically for the 400 foot deal I lean towards no membership required. But in light of the blog you link to, when it comes to the LMA program, then I would have to say yes you need to be a member. It is pretty hard to be approved to fly in the LMA program without being an AMA member.

porcia83

My Feedback: (8)

Oh, that's subtle, real slick. Bonus money you don't say? Would that be in addition to their base salary, perks, and stock options that all of the volunteers get? Bonus money. I love it.

init4fun

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init4fun

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init4fun

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franklin_m

There are five enumerated conditions in section 336 (soon to be part 101.41) for operations as a "model aircraft." I interpret Chad's comment to be directed at paragraph (a)(2) which says "the aircraft is operated in accordance with a community-based set of safety guidelines and within the programming of a nationwide community-based organization."

The LMA program you mentioned is different enumerated paragraph (a)(3) actually.That is a separate issue.

While Chad Budreau says that "to operate within our safety program, you must join the AMA," the FAA explicitly said that "The FAA does not interpret PL 112-95 Section 336 (a) (2) as requiring membership in a CBO...[emphasis added]"

FAA interprets the law, not Chad nor AMA.

Sport_Pilot

If not a member, how would you prove you are flying "within the programming" of a CBO. Keep a set of rules and show how you are following them? An AMA card would be bettter and cheap.

TimJ

Not sure what your point is?

YES.

mongo

My Feedback: (15)

that whole "must be a member" thing is a liability dodge.
they can say in court that they are in no way responsible for non member actions, even if that non member was following the safety code to the letter.
plain and simple.
has no affect on you, me, the FAA or anyone else in any way.

cj_rumley

That's a return to rationality, and I hope you are right. A liability dodge, no problem.

Chris P. Bacon

My Feedback: (4)

Not sure how they would be liable even for member actions.

init4fun

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Chris P. Bacon

My Feedback: (4)

Chad/AMA are not interpreting the law, they are interpreting the AMA's position. The AMA only administers their program to their members and members agree to follow it by signing their membership application. The AMA cannot and will not vouch for any non-members. For non-members that's between them and the FAA.

cj_rumley

Dues paying members of AMA are buying liability insurance, which transfers liability (to agreed upon $$ limits) to the insurer, conditionally. AMA (and their insurer, after AMA pays the $250K deductible aka self-insured portion of any award) are last in line to be assigned that liability, after any other insurance that may apply exceeds the limits of coverage. So yes, AMA is liable for liability incurred by their members' actions. To a significant extent that is why AMA is in business.

franklin_m

Whether AMA or not, I still have to prove I'm complying with them, so that part is a wash. Just because someone is an AMA member does not mean they're following the rules, nor is it a "force field" against FAA action. So, on the "cheap" part, an AMA membership is $75 a year (for now). Two pages printed in my inkjet is at most $1.

Looks to me that my way is at least $74 a year cheaper....

porcia83

My Feedback: (8)

Thought the creepy practice of trying to reference, one way or another, what you think is my occupation stopped a while ago, are we back on that now? For someone so intent on telling others to stay on topic, you're working hard to do otherwise. You even had to go back and write a new entry about it? When you see me talking about what I do for a living, feel free to jump all over it, but you won't, because it's irrelevant. Otherwise, I'd ask you respectfully to keep the comments to yourself in that regard, or better yet you can PM me if you want to discuss. Fair enough?

I guess you I thought you knew that the EC positions are not paid, people actually volunteer for them. Ya, not for a salary, or glory, or for bonuses, imo. They do it because they have deep roots in the hobby and want to do something more about it than talk. They all gave campaign statements when they ran. I doubt the perks of free business cards, some shirts and hats, and a limited expense budget are what drew them to the position (then again the AMA shirts are expensive). Even if there were a bonus, I doubt it would go for something like this. I appreciate the work the AMA has done on the issue (understatement right?), but honestly, I consider this to be part of what they should be doing as part of their jobs. I would say it might be difficult to put something in place for them to get a bonus for, maybe retention or growth figures, but a lot of what they are doing now would be difficult to set a metric for.

franklin_m

If the AMA is not interpreting the law, then they were certainly trying to leave people with the impression that membership is required. Otherwise, why use the word "must" in conjunction with the root form of the same word used in the legislation? I don't think that's any accident. But oh well.

At least it's abundantly clear now in terms of the FAA's position - membership in a CBO is not required to comply with the safety guidelines or the programming.

Now I have to figure out a way to phrase the question to challenge AMA's hold on inspections of aircraft over 55lbs.

porcia83

My Feedback: (8)

You are on fleek boyyyy! The AMA would never be responsible for a non members action, even if they had a copy of the AMA's guidelines. The AMA isn't really be responsible for the actions of AMA members...they just agree to provide insurance for certain losses that the members are responsible for.

porcia83

My Feedback: (8)

LoL, back on the AMA is only insurance theme? Members who pay dues are buying into a whole host of programs and benefits, one of which is a suite of insurance coverages. Yes, they are in many instances excess, in many instances primary. Even if primary, there isn't an insurance company out there that could match the dues as a premium charge. The AMA is hardly in business in order to operate as an insurance company.

Chris P. Bacon

My Feedback: (4)

Don't forget those high Muncie salaries, wait for it, it's coming.

franklin_m

And then only after all other insurance has paid...