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400 foot? NOPE

Old 07-23-2016, 02:13 PM
  #301  
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Originally Posted by franklin_m
On the inspection issue, with just one CBO, it's kind of a moot point. If there's more than one, then standardization becomes an issue. I'd rather have a governmental agency setting the standards and pass / fail criteria, with execution left to private organizations / individuals.

Three full loss crashes of a specially certified plane/pilot combination is no mere coincidence... It's the plane's engineering and construction, pilot error, or weak inspection or certification - pick one.
Only one choice? Have you crashed three different aircraft in 10 years ( I know I have)? If not great...if yes....apply your standard above, can we extrapolate out from that answer that there is an issue? C'mon.
Old 07-23-2016, 02:19 PM
  #302  
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Originally Posted by init4fun
Thank You Ira , this is along the lines I was thinking .

Now , as far as porcia's "There is however only so much that can be done" statement , In my opinion the fact that the AMA does require inspection is good enough for me , and I have no problem with the AMA's large model inspection program . My main question centered around non AMA members , shouldn't their over 55# models be required to be inspected also ? Now , if they do have to be inspected and they aren't AMA members , and it's an AMA member that's contracted by the FAA to do that inspection , then the AMA member who does the inspection deserves to get paid for that inspection just as the guy who puts the inspection sticker on the car's windshield gets paid .
Would this not be part of the same issue Frankin has brought up (and others) in the past about the feds requiring some type of payment to the AMA, only in this example it's a member of the AMA instead of the AMA itself. Also, it's one thing for an AMA member to inspect another AMA members plane as part of a membership program, or just because they are a nice guy/gal. Now the AMA starts taking a fee for his/her inspection and they sign off it's good to go. The aircraft crashes, the issue is traced to something the inspector misses. Is the inspector on the hook for something now?
Old 07-23-2016, 04:09 PM
  #303  
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Originally Posted by porcia83
Only one choice? Have you crashed three different aircraft in 10 years ( I know I have)? If not great...if yes....apply your standard above, can we extrapolate out from that answer that there is an issue? C'mon.
Three total loss crashes of the same type-model-series, all flown by the same pilot, all specially certified by the same organization. It's a design failure, a manufacturing failure, a pilot failure, or an inspection failure. What it's not is a coincidence.
Old 07-23-2016, 04:15 PM
  #304  
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Originally Posted by porcia83
The aircraft crashes, the issue is traced to something the inspector misses. Is the inspector on the hook for something now?
I would argue the AMA is on the hook already. They specify what is to be inspected, and they certify the inspectors. If an AMA certified LMA crashes, and the feds determine the inspection was inadequate or the inspector missed something - I can't think there wouldn't be some liability there for AMA if not the inspector themselves.

I wonder if AMA indemnifies its LMA/LTMA inspectors? They are after all acting as agents of the organization within a program managed by the organization.
Old 07-23-2016, 04:25 PM
  #305  
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Shame we have to be talking like this instead of just some learned modelers helping other modelers out
Old 07-23-2016, 04:46 PM
  #306  
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Originally Posted by BarracudaHockey
Shame we have to be talking like this instead of just some learned modelers helping other modelers out
What's the famous saying? Oh yeah. "Be careful what you wish for, as you just may get it."

AMA asked for that legislation, and in doing so put itself in position of certifying the safety of sUAS greater than 55lbs under PL112-95 Section 336 (a)(3). Should there be an accident involving one of the those aircraft, and investigation shows negligence in the program or in the execution of the inspection - you can bet that inspectors and/or the organization can be held liable.

If LMA/LTMA inspectors are not indemnified...I sure hope they have umbrella policies!

Last edited by franklin_m; 07-23-2016 at 04:48 PM.
Old 07-23-2016, 05:32 PM
  #307  
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Originally Posted by franklin_m
Three total loss crashes of the same type-model-series, all flown by the same pilot, all specially certified by the same organization. It's a design failure, a manufacturing failure, a pilot failure, or an inspection failure. What it's not is a coincidence.
More spin and parsing of words. Three crashes of three different airframes, at different times, in different places. The plane was no doubt inspected,but you have no evidence it was done by the same person (doubtful it was). At least you added one more option. The only factor that is similar is that it was the same pilot. Crashes happen, and there isn't a doubt in my mind you have crashed three different aircraft over 10 years. What isn't a coincidence is you taking one persons crashes and somehow managing to tie it into some shortcoming of the AMA. Reminds me of the 6 Degrees of Kevin Bacon, only in this case it always leads back to blame, and the AMA.
Old 07-23-2016, 05:33 PM
  #308  
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Originally Posted by franklin_m
I would argue the AMA is on the hook already. They specify what is to be inspected, and they certify the inspectors. If an AMA certified LMA crashes, and the feds determine the inspection was inadequate or the inspector missed something - I can't think there wouldn't be some liability there for AMA if not the inspector themselves.

I wonder if AMA indemnifies its LMA/LTMA inspectors? They are after all acting as agents of the organization within a program managed by the organization.
So how does that work now with the FAA and it's inspectors?
Old 07-23-2016, 05:40 PM
  #309  
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Originally Posted by franklin_m
What's the famous saying? Oh yeah. "Be careful what you wish for, as you just may get it."

AMA asked for that legislation, and in doing so put itself in position of certifying the safety of sUAS greater than 55lbs under PL112-95 Section 336 (a)(3). Should there be an accident involving one of the those aircraft, and investigation shows negligence in the program or in the execution of the inspection - you can bet that inspectors and/or the organization can be held liable.

If LMA/LTMA inspectors are not indemnified...I sure hope they have umbrella policies!
LoL. I'd bet against that....and I doubt anyone's rushing out to get one.

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Old 07-23-2016, 06:09 PM
  #310  
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Originally Posted by franklin_m
I would argue the AMA is on the hook already. They specify what is to be inspected, and they certify the inspectors. If an AMA certified LMA crashes, and the feds determine the inspection was inadequate or the inspector missed something - I can't think there wouldn't be some liability there for AMA if not the inspector themselves.

I wonder if AMA indemnifies its LMA/LTMA inspectors? They are after all acting as agents of the organization within a program managed by the organization.
What if you're flying at a park or school year and you hit someone? What if you assumed flying there would be okay, but you never actually got written permission to fly there. What happens then?

The AMA Safety Code specifically states:

1.
Model aircraft will not be flown:
(a) In a careless or reckless manner.
(b) At a location where model aircraft activities are prohibited.

When a member signs their AMA membership application they agree to follow the AMA safety code.


Old 07-23-2016, 06:26 PM
  #311  
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Originally Posted by init4fun
Franklin , I would like to hear your thoughts on who would do the inspections of +55# models . Do you think only the FAA should do it ? If the FAA doesn't have enough inspectors (and won't hire more) should the FAA defer these inspections to a private entity ?

At least as far as motor vehicle law goes in the state I live in , you most certainly are legally bound to pay a private company to inspect your car , in other words the government forcing you to do business with a private company if you want to drive legally* . Why would it be any different for the FAA to say you need an inspection of +55# models and send you to a private company for that inspection ?

* My state does not have state run inspection facilities . A driver must take his car to the local auto repair shop that has been subcontracted by the State to do inspections .
same here in TX. most every oil change place and mechanics some gas stations and most new car dealers.
Old 07-23-2016, 06:40 PM
  #312  
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Originally Posted by franklin_m
What's the famous saying? Oh yeah. "Be careful what you wish for, as you just may get it."

AMA asked for that legislation, and in doing so put itself in position of certifying the safety of sUAS greater than 55lbs under PL112-95 Section 336 (a)(3). Should there be an accident involving one of the those aircraft, and investigation shows negligence in the program or in the execution of the inspection - you can bet that inspectors and/or the organization can be held liable.

If LMA/LTMA inspectors are not indemnified...I sure hope they have umbrella policies!
i remember a while back something about extending indemnity insurance to club officers, cds, and i think that they included the aircraft inspectors and turbine sign off folks.
would take a call to ilona to find out for sure. who is going to make it?

mongo
Old 07-23-2016, 06:54 PM
  #313  
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Originally Posted by porcia83
So how does that work now with the FAA and it's inspectors?
I can't speak to how the FAA handles it, but I can speak in general as to how the DoD handles indemnification.

If I did something in my official capacity, and I was acting within the scope of my duties (always except in case of gross misconduct), then if sued the US Attorney would ask for the US Government to assume liability. Given that FAA is federal, I think it's fair to assume they work the same way. If an FAA inspector is acting within the scope of his employment, in an official capacity, then the USG would similarly step in and assume liability.

I would hope the AMA would formally indemnify inspectors acting on behalf of the AMA in direct support of an AMA program that's only possible under a very specific section of law. Otherwise, AMA is allowing inspectors to assume all the risk should there ever be a suit. That hardly seems fair.
Old 07-23-2016, 07:00 PM
  #314  
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Originally Posted by Chris P. Bacon
When a member signs their AMA membership application they agree to follow the AMA safety code.
Given that "The FAA does not interpret PL 112-95 Section 336 (a) (2) as requiring membership in a CBO ... You must only follow the guidelines of a CBO." --- nobody even has to go to the trouble of signing. One just has to follow them.

Holy cow! The government stepping into save us time, administrative burden, and money to boot!

Last edited by franklin_m; 07-23-2016 at 07:03 PM.
Old 07-23-2016, 07:04 PM
  #315  
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Originally Posted by porcia83
LoL. I'd bet against that....and I doubt anyone's rushing out to get one.

Then they do so at their own risk. I'm perfectly fine with that, as long as they understand the risk they're taking.
Old 07-23-2016, 07:06 PM
  #316  
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Originally Posted by porcia83
....Three crashes of three different airframes...
Three different B29's of about the same size, shape, and characteristics. Sure sounds like same type-model-series to me.
Old 07-23-2016, 07:21 PM
  #317  
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Originally Posted by franklin_m
Given that "The FAA does not interpret PL 112-95 Section 336 (a) (2) as requiring membership in a CBO ... You must only follow the guidelines of a CBO." --- nobody even has to go to the trouble of signing. One just has to follow them.

Holy cow! The government stepping into save us time, administrative burden, and money to boot!
What if you're flying at a park or school year and you hit someone? What if you assumed flying there would be okay, but you never actually got written permission to fly there. What happens then?

The AMA Safety Code specifically states:

1.
Model aircraft will not be flown:
(a) In a careless or reckless manner.
(b) At a location where model aircraft activities are prohibited.

When a member signs their AMA membership application they agree to follow the AMA safety code.

So you agree AMA members are not exempt from following the AMA safety code?
Old 07-23-2016, 07:42 PM
  #318  
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Aircraft , at the time of that writing , meaning man carrying contrivances . Had they meant to include model representations of real aircraft , it would have said so . Now , since the FAA has exempted non man carrying copies of real aircraft from part 107 , they are not true aircraft in the eyes of the FAA , being copies or models of real aircraft in other words . Any Lawyer worth his pay would shoot down the model plane = real aircraft argument in a literal blink of an eye .
This is a currant policy written well after the FAA claimed that model airplanes are aircraft.
Old 07-24-2016, 02:50 AM
  #319  
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Originally Posted by Sport_Pilot
This is a currant policy written well after the FAA claimed that model airplanes are aircraft.
I'm sorry, I don't believe that for a second. Who is the carrier, and what is the form number? The state that policy is written in will have that on record, and would have had to approve that. It hasn't happened yet in GA.

I've asked twice now about airplanes that fall under the weight limit, and how your carrier would deal with that? If your carrier took the time to define aircraft above the limit, they did so below the limit. You won't answer the question, why?
Old 07-24-2016, 02:55 AM
  #320  
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Originally Posted by mongo
i remember a while back something about extending indemnity insurance to club officers, cds, and i think that they included the aircraft inspectors and turbine sign off folks.
would take a call to ilona to find out for sure. who is going to make it?

mongo
nobody will make the call, because that would probably not fit the narrative they want to put out there. Interesting comment about extending insurance coverage to club officers (already happening), but there's someone running for AMA president that wants liability insurance extended out to sponsors of fly in events too. As if they aren't able to carry their own. Curiously he didn't mention membership dues. Just another instance of wanting more and more from the AMA, but I'm willing to bet he won't want to dues increased.
Old 07-24-2016, 03:00 AM
  #321  
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Originally Posted by franklin_m
Three different B29's of about the same size, shape, and characteristics. Sure sounds like same type-model-series to me.
Great, we agree. Three completely different air frames. I'd ask for a third time if you crashed 3 different aircraft over the past 10 years but you didn't answer the first two times, I'm going to go with the answer being yes.

Crashes happen.
Old 07-24-2016, 03:50 AM
  #322  
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Originally Posted by porcia83
Great, we agree. Three completely different air frames. I'd ask for a third time if you crashed 3 different aircraft over the past 10 years but you didn't answer the first two times, I'm going to go with the answer being yes.

Crashes happen.
No. I fat fingered that. My intent was to form that as a question, and I posted it incorrectly.

I maintain they were three B29's, of the same size, configuration, power type, construction type, and capability. I argue that's the same type-model-series.
Old 07-24-2016, 03:57 AM
  #323  
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Originally Posted by Chris P. Bacon
What if you're flying at a park or school year and you hit someone? What if you assumed flying there would be okay, but you never actually got written permission to fly there. What happens then?

The AMA Safety Code specifically states:

1.
Model aircraft will not be flown:
(a) In a careless or reckless manner.
(b) At a location where model aircraft activities are prohibited.

When a member signs their AMA membership application they agree to follow the AMA safety code.

So you agree AMA members are not exempt from following the AMA safety code?

If there's a mishap involving one of my aircraft, the same thing will happen whether I'm an AMA member or not. There will be a claim against my homeowner's / umbrella policy. The AMA won't ever see a claim, let alone pay one. Hence my comment that if not needed for flying at a particular site, for folks like me the AMA is not much more than a $75 a year magazine.
Old 07-24-2016, 04:00 AM
  #324  
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Originally Posted by porcia83
"...but there's someone running for AMA president that wants liability insurance extended out to sponsors of fly in events too. As if they aren't able to carry their own. Curiously he didn't mention membership dues. Just another instance of wanting more and more from the AMA, but I'm willing to bet he won't want to dues increased."
But weren't you the one who said if you want to change things, then get involved, be a leader member, run for office and fight for changes? Your example above seems to be someone doing just that - and yet it's implied that it's wrong because he's not discussing dues?
Old 07-24-2016, 04:15 AM
  #325  
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Well let me correct some of your misconceptions.

They were NOT the same, each incarnation was different in size and build and incorporated lessons learned from building or operating the previous one.

And they each had a distinct root cause for each crash, Mac was very straight forward about what happened each time.


Also, I called my HO carrier and they have no heartburn about model planes. Infact the guy thought it sounded cool

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