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400 foot? NOPE

Old 08-29-2016, 06:55 AM
  #651  
rcmiket
 
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Originally Posted by TimJ
The law of attraction.
Knowledge is power. In my world It's always best to keep your friends close and your enemies closer.
Isn't it wiser to know if there's a potential problem on the horizon rather than waiting till it's at your front door.


Mike
Old 08-29-2016, 07:07 AM
  #652  
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Originally Posted by rcmiket
This has been discussed in one of the other threads and dismissed by the everything is wonderful crowd and there's nothing to worry about.

Mike






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Old 08-29-2016, 07:15 AM
  #653  
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Originally Posted by rcmiket
Knowledge is power. In my world It's always best to keep your friends close and your enemies closer.
Isn't it wiser to know if there's a potential problem on the horizon rather than waiting till it's at your front door.


Mike
This doesn't mean stick your head in the sand. This means expect the best, prepare for the worst.
Old 08-29-2016, 07:19 AM
  #654  
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Originally Posted by rcmiket
Knowledge is power. In my world It's always best to keep your friends close and your enemies closer.
Isn't it wiser to know if there's a potential problem on the horizon rather than waiting till it's at your front door.


Mike
Always love a Godfather reference, classic movie!

But we're not really dealing with the mafia here are we? And there's quite a difference between knowledge, and complaining about the here and now, and prognosticating doom and gloom and strife in the future. Knowledge is power, and knowing what reality is versus what might be, or how it was in the past, and what we want for the future are not the same.

I haven't seen a specific issue yet where a potential problem has been ignored, god knows the drone issue has been discussed and dealt with here and at the AMA for how many years now? Years!
Old 08-29-2016, 07:53 AM
  #655  
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Originally Posted by TimJ
This doesn't mean stick your head in the sand. This means expect the best, prepare for the worst.

Reasonable enough.

Mike
Old 08-29-2016, 12:41 PM
  #656  
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Originally Posted by porcia83
And equally discussed by the everything is horrible see I knew it would happen and oops it didn't really happen but trust me after 14 years I know something bad is going to happen just around the corner crowd.

Meanwhile, back in reality, folks continue to fly just as they have done all along. The amazing power of positive thinking and going on with life without daily doom and gloom. If they don't do nothing wrong....they won't get caught. Easy peazy lemon squeezy!
If it is Illegal to where goggles to fly FPV because the pilot does not have Line of site to the craft then what happens to all the FPV vidio and FPV racing that does nothing to interfier with any sort of General Aviation nor Commercial aviation endevers at all?
Old 08-29-2016, 01:07 PM
  #657  
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Originally Posted by HoundDog
If it is Illegal to where goggles to fly FPV because the pilot does not have Line of site to the craft then what happens to all the FPV vidio and FPV racing that does nothing to interfier with any sort of General Aviation nor Commercial aviation endevers at all?
But it's not illegal to wear goggles to fly FPV, for members of a CBO.
Old 08-29-2016, 01:09 PM
  #658  
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Official word from AMA, keep operating by the AMA 505 FPV docs

They are trying to work something out with the FAA with wording similar to what we got about 400 feet.
Old 08-29-2016, 01:14 PM
  #659  
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More work and advocacy on behalf of the
membership...nice. reminds me of the dire predictions on the 400 door ceiling issue, that became a non issue.

Thanks for the update.
Old 08-29-2016, 01:25 PM
  #660  
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Originally Posted by BarracudaHockey
Official word from AMA, keep operating by the AMA 505 FPV docs

They are trying to work something out with the FAA with wording similar to what we got about 400 feet.
Exactly this.
Old 08-29-2016, 02:52 PM
  #661  
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So if U are a member of the AMA none of this pertains to AMA Members is what U are saying? ... But if but if don't belong to the AMA and fly FPV anywhere in the USA U are breaking FAR Part 101?
[h=4]PART 101 - MOORED BALLOONS, KITES, UNMANNED ROCKETS AND UNMANNED FREE BALLOONS[/h]I don't see anything pertaining to flying FPV or sUAS.
Old 08-29-2016, 03:31 PM
  #662  
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Originally Posted by porcia83
More work and advocacy on behalf of the
membership...nice. reminds me of the dire predictions on the 400 door ceiling issue, that became a non issue.

Thanks for the update.
Might not be so easy as the 400' limit, which was never stated in the law.

The definition of a model aircraft in section 336 reads in part "(2) flown within visual line of sight of the person operating the aircraft." In the Recommendations of the sUAS ARC of Apr 2009, this definition: "Visual Line-of-Sight:
Unaided (corrective lenses and/or sunglasses exempted) visual contact with aircraft sufficient to be able to maintain operational control of the aircraft, know its location, and be able to scan the airspace in which it is operating to decisively see and avoid other air traffic or objects."
This definition was attributed to Rich Hanson, the AMA rep on the committee, in an annotated version of the ARC report that appeared on the AMA website.

If that is the definition of VLOS that FAA is using, and I think it is, the 'observer' rule in the AMA 505 docs is real stretch.
- the observer cannot reasonably maintain operational control of the aircraft, in FPV racing especially
- the operator cannot reasonably scan the airspace in which it operating.........
Old 08-29-2016, 04:14 PM
  #663  
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Fly beyond true LOS then you might cause yourself some problems. Confine yourself to the safety code and I doubt anyone will bother you.

If me personally were holding or participating in a race this weekend, I'd make plans to go (tropical storms not withstanding)

That's the view from AMA HQ.

What I would absolutely NOT do is something stupid to bring unwanted attention to myself like flying BLOS around the city bridges and or posting a YT video of doing something stupid.

I can tell you that quad racing occurs, for the most part, under the tree line at our field and the FAA has better things to do.

Cause a problem with a manned aircraft and you will have problems, FPV or not.

I'm not your lawyer or even a lawyer, I'm just telling you my personal take on what I've heard from the Govt relations guys.
Old 08-29-2016, 04:26 PM
  #664  
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Originally Posted by BarracudaHockey
Fly beyond true LOS then you might cause yourself some problems. Confine yourself to the safety code and I doubt anyone will bother you.

If me personally were holding or participating in a race this weekend, I'd make plans to go (tropical storms not withstanding)

That's the view from AMA HQ.

What I would absolutely NOT do is something stupid to bring unwanted attention to myself like flying BLOS around the city bridges and or posting a YT video of doing something stupid.

I can tell you that quad racing occurs, for the most part, under the tree line at our field and the FAA has better things to do.

Cause a problem with a manned aircraft and you will have problems, FPV or not.

I'm not your lawyer or even a lawyer, I'm just telling you my personal take on what I've heard from the Govt relations guys.

So basically, the advice is..."don't get caught"
Old 08-29-2016, 04:36 PM
  #665  
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hey,
it is only illegal, IF you get caught.
Old 08-29-2016, 04:39 PM
  #666  
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Originally Posted by cj_rumley
Might not be so easy as the 400' limit, which was never stated in the law.

The definition of a model aircraft in section 336 reads in part "(2) flown within visual line of sight of the person operating the aircraft." In the Recommendations of the sUAS ARC of Apr 2009, this definition: "Visual Line-of-Sight:
Unaided (corrective lenses and/or sunglasses exempted) visual contact with aircraft sufficient to be able to maintain operational control of the aircraft, know its location, and be able to scan the airspace in which it is operating to decisively see and avoid other air traffic or objects."
This definition was attributed to Rich Hanson, the AMA rep on the committee, in an annotated version of the ARC report that appeared on the AMA website.

If that is the definition of VLOS that FAA is using, and I think it is, the 'observer' rule in the AMA 505 docs is real stretch.
- the observer cannot reasonably maintain operational control of the aircraft, in FPV racing especially
- the operator cannot reasonably scan the airspace in which it operating.........
I wasn't really referring to the language that was or wasn't stated in the law, rather the doom and gloom prophecies that were being kicked around here for the past two years plus. The 400 foot issue was just one of them.
Old 08-29-2016, 04:40 PM
  #667  
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Originally Posted by mr_matt
So basically, the advice is..."don't get caught"
" if ya don't do nuthin wrong....ya won't get caught".
Old 08-29-2016, 04:56 PM
  #668  
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Originally Posted by cj_rumley
If that is the definition of VLOS that FAA is using, and I think it is, the 'observer' rule in the AMA 505 docs is real stretch.
- the observer cannot reasonably maintain operational control of the aircraft, in FPV racing especially
- the operator cannot reasonably scan the airspace in which it operating.........
Interestingly enough, the FPV section in Part 107 essentially parrots the AMA FPV guidance. Must use a spotter and remain within VLOS of the spotter. This leads me to believe that the FAA is softening their position on FPV. It is also clear that they think the AMA guidance is sufficient for Part 107 use. I suspect that we will see them carry that over into Part 101 operations fairly soon.
Old 08-29-2016, 05:02 PM
  #669  
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Originally Posted by Silent-AV8R
Interestingly enough, the FPV section in Part 107 essentially parrots the AMA FPV guidance. Must use a spotter and remain within VLOS of the spotter. This leads me to believe that the FAA is softening their position on FPV. It is also clear that they think the AMA guidance is sufficient for Part 107 use. I suspect that we will see them carry that over into Part 101 operations fairly soon.
I suspect you are correct on all the above. It doesn't seem reasonable or probable that the FAA is or was going to create a hardship for FPV racers operating within the hobby and CBO regs.
Old 08-30-2016, 03:07 AM
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Time will tell What happens to our hobby. . To all spotters Don't watch your pilots Plane scan the skys runway and the area for potential hazards, Hazardeds like other aircraft or people on the runway. Almost had a disaster Sunday when a turbine powered jet (at the noon demonstration) when going Vertical went right behind a Cessna. The spotter was watching the jet instead of scanning for hazards. We came real close to making the National 6 O'Clock news.
Old 08-30-2016, 03:16 AM
  #671  
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Originally Posted by HoundDog
Time will tell What happens to our hobby. . To all spotters Don't watch your pilots Plane scan the skys runway and the area for potential hazards, Hazardeds like other aircraft or people on the runway. Almost had a disaster Sunday when a turbine powered jet (at the noon demonstration) when going Vertical went right behind a Cessna. The spotter was watching the jet instead of scanning for hazards. We came real close to making the National 6 O'Clock news.
That's very good advice.

Watch the videos on the AMA blog and you can see the observer and the operator's heads moving in sync.
Old 08-30-2016, 04:52 AM
  #672  
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Originally Posted by franklin_m
That's very good advice.

Watch the videos on the AMA blog and you can see the observer and the operator's heads moving in sync.
Was this a spotter required for safety reasons? Because for aerobatics they often use an optional spotter keeping track of manoeuvre's and giving advice sometimes used for practice as well. So you would need to know if the spotter was required for safety to speculate. Even for safety he will need to keep tract of the plane to some extent as well.
Old 08-30-2016, 05:36 AM
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Originally Posted by Sport_Pilot
Was this a spotter required for safety reasons? Because for aerobatics they often use an optional spotter keeping track of manoeuvre's and giving advice sometimes used for practice as well. So you would need to know if the spotter was required for safety to speculate. Even for safety he will need to keep tract of the plane to some extent as well.

In a video specifically entitled "See and Avoid" (http://www.modelaircraft.org/aboutama/govmedia.aspx)

Unlikely.
Old 08-30-2016, 09:04 AM
  #674  
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Originally Posted by Sport_Pilot
Was this a spotter required for safety reasons? Because for aerobatics they often use an optional spotter keeping track of manoeuvre's and giving advice sometimes used for practice as well. So you would need to know if the spotter was required for safety to speculate. Even for safety he will need to keep tract of the plane to some extent as well.
The guy CALLING for an IMAC or Pattern contest or pylon race is not a spotter, They are Callers. In the case of Imac or Pattern they are there to CALL the next manover. In the case of pylon they CAll THE TURN... AS IN Ready Turn. When U are Racing nothing is going to stop a mid air but the quick hands of the pilot. There is no time to warn of a mid air when U have 4 or 5 planes all within a half lape of eacher and the leaders are neck and neck with each other.
Old 08-30-2016, 09:14 AM
  #675  
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Originally Posted by HoundDog
Time will tell What happens to our hobby. . To all spotters Don't watch your pilots Plane scan the skys runway and the area for potential hazards, Hazardeds like other aircraft or people on the runway. Almost had a disaster Sunday when a turbine powered jet (at the noon demonstration) when going Vertical went right behind a Cessna. The spotter was watching the jet instead of scanning for hazards. We came real close to making the National 6 O'Clock news.
Originally Posted by franklin_m
That's very good advice.

Watch the videos on the AMA blog and you can see the observer and the operator's heads moving in sync.
I agree here , a spotter looking at his/her pilot's plane is of no use whatsoever , they are seeing the very same thing the pilot is ! A good spotter is kinda like a good driver on the road , someone who is able to look 3 seconds ahead of any situation that may appear in front of them . Of course it helps if the spotter has pre flight knowledge of the intended maneuvers but even not , it's all about looking those 3 seconds ahead for anything that may come into their plane's path 3 seconds later .

PS , To Hound , I'm very happy to hear of your good fortune of not having a turbine powered anything getting into a crash at your field , like you say , we don't need any negative 6:00 news coverage

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